Question about the F-18E/F Super Hornet.

Originally posted by Darkpr0
As far as I know the Super Hornet has no air-to-air kills in combat. Claiming that is has performed great in A2A combat as compared to aircraft such as the F-15 (well over 100 combat kills, no combat losses) is gonna be a tough position to take.

The only kills credited to any Hornet are a pair of MiG-21s in Desert Storm when the war first started. A pair of Hornets off Saratoga were heading in to bomb a target, when a pair of MiG-21s approached them.

reply to post by Zaphod58


I believe those kills were F-18C's, but I might be wrong. It has happened before.

reply to post by Darkpr0


They were. I was just saying that those were the only kills ever credited to a Hornet, either standard, or Super.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Navy2001

 

He also didn't ask if it could do SEAD, or several of the other things that you mentioned, such as "everything with the flip of a switch".

It's going to have problems when it comes up against the Su-35, and some of the later aircraft in WVR. A super maneuverable platform is going to be able to do things that it just can't do, no matter how bad they want to. BVR is always more equal, but it will depend on sensors and countermeasures, as well as maneuverability. Personally I think the Su-35 has a slight edge, but not much of one.

With all Navy and Marine pilots being trained how to exploit the Bee's departure control system to perform even more complicated maneuvers, the SU-35 doesn't have squat on the Super Bee except raw speed. That speed will only be used to run from the fight.

Originally posted by Navy2001
It isn't outclassed, i said without the upgrades it's outclassed, read carefully next time.

Your words: Without the upgrades it's outclassed
Given: Current F/A-18E/F Super Hornets do not field those upgrades
Therefore: Super Hornet operates without the upgrades
Therefore: Super Hornet is outclassed

you'll get the idea that it's not always about the platform (that being the Super Hornet in this case) but the system of which it is. And a answer like "It's Never Been Good in A2A" is sort of like answering "how long is this plane going to last?", there's many other variables outside of simply the aircraft's specifications that will determine its effectiveness in combat. Aircraft don't engage in mano e mano gladiatorial combat, they operate as part of a multi-platform warfighting system.

We stopped discussing different operation systems when people started comparing the A,B,C, and D variants of the F-18 to the Super Hornet variants. Ever since then, the debate has been about the Super Hornet's value in A2A combat as compared to other American platforms. The logistical support behind any aircraft by the American administration is always exemplary and the aircraft will perform at their best because of it. If we were comparing the F-18 specifically to aircraft from Europe, Russia, or other nations then this might be an issue, but that facet left the debate 2 pages ago.

Within one such system, the primary operators of the Super Hornet, the US Navy, appear to have faith in the Super Hornet's ability to perform in air to air missions.

Which is precisely why they are replacing it
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They were. I was just saying that those were the only kills ever credited to a Hornet, either standard, or Super.

Righto. I've been trying to keep my discussion just to the E/F given how different they are compared to the A-Ds. Definitely good to know, though. Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Darkpr0

 

They were. I was just saying that those were the only kills ever credited to a Hornet, either standard, or Super.

Well as you know its been a long time since a nation had the balls to send up Migs towards a Carrier in a Hostile attitude.

I guess time will tell.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


Have you watched the Su-35 at Paris? Yes it was done under non-combat conditions, but it's still quite impressive, and shows that it will give any 4th or 4+ gen fighter a run for its money at worst.

reply to post by Darkpr0


The Hornets have AESA radar suites so you were saying what now?

The F35 is not meant to replace the Super Hornets at all. It was meant to replace the A-6 Intruders, since that shoe has been filled then some older Hornets will be moved off.

Originally posted by PatriotsrevengeWith all Navy and Marine pilots being trained how to exploit the Bee's departure control system to perform even more complicated maneuvers, the SU-35 doesn't have squat on the Super Bee except raw speed. That speed will only be used to run from the fight.

Correct, finally somebody agrees

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by Darkpr0

 

The Hornets have AESA radar suites so you were saying what now?

The F35 is not meant to replace the Super Hornets at all. It was meant to replace the A-6 Intruders, since that shoe has been filled then some older Hornets will be moved off.

It replaced 4 platforms not the A-6 only. But the SH will stay with us for a long time

Originally posted by Darkpr0If we were comparing the F-18 specifically to aircraft from Europe, Russia, or other nations then this might be an issue, but that facet left the debate 2 pages ago.

It's not a problem for the Rhino pilots. The E/F is very capable in engaging WVR fights and BVR As you see i don't have to repeat the things of why it's capable.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Patriotsrevenge

 

Have you watched the Su-35 at Paris? Yes it was done under non-combat conditions, but it's still quite impressive, and shows that it will give any 4th or 4+ gen fighter a run for its money at worst.

Yes I have! Yes it is cool but if you seen the Super Bee do moves with departure control you would be speechless and then say WTF was that lol. I have seen one video on it and they are keeping the moves a closely guarded secret for when they really need them.

Originally posted by Zaphod58

Originally posted by Darkpr0
As far as I know the Super Hornet has no air-to-air kills in combat. Claiming that is has performed great in A2A combat as compared to aircraft such as the F-15 (well over 100 combat kills, no combat losses) is gonna be a tough position to take.

The only kills credited to any Hornet are a pair of MiG-21s in Desert Storm when the war first started. A pair of Hornets off Saratoga were heading in to bomb a target, when a pair of MiG-21s approached them.

Minus the -C we lost to a Foxbat and we're at 2:1...


But I just learned we have "super-secret moves" now so the swabbies should be fine...

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


I've actually seen some of them, and read reports about it. They're impressive, but a 4+ is still going to have trouble against a 4.5, and doesn't stand much of a chance against a 5. The Rhino is decent in all roles, but range, and the jack of all trades master of none adage comes into play. It will with the F-35 too. They're trying to do too much with it.

That's one reason the F-15C is pure air superiority, and the F-15E (while it theoretically could dogfight) is almost a pure tactical bomber (it has one air to air kill, where it dropped a bomb on an Iraqi helicopter). Both excel at their missions, and you'd be hard pressed to find better aircraft at the roles they perform.

reply to post by _Del_


Who's the swabbies?

So the Super Hornet is capable in A2A in its secondary role?

Originally posted by Ribox12
reply to post by _Del_

 

Who's the swabbies?

They mean that people who are low in rank or significantly poor trained as a pilot, will be great flying the Super Bug in a dogfight.

Originally posted by Ribox12
So the Super Hornet is capable in A2A in its secondary role?

Ribox, read post #3 when you started the thread. It will help you understand, it's not always the platform it's self it's the pilot who has to keep control of the plane to be great.

The conclusion is that the F-18E/F Super Hornet is a great A2A plane in the second role. Also decent in all roles.

Originally posted by Ribox12
reply to post by _Del_

 

Who's the swabbies?

In this case a naval aviator (see also: "swab the deck")

Is the Super Hornet "capable" in an air-to-air role? Yes. It will continue to be capable until it has operational 5th generation opponents. Is it a great or pure air-superiority fighter? No. It is in the lower portion or perhaps middle of the pack.

reply to post by Navy2001

However, there's no such thing as dogfights or WVR engagments anymore. Its been dead since the Vietnam War. All A2A kills in Desert Storm occurred far away which is BVR.

BVR engagments occurr 93% while WVR engagments occur 7%.

The air to air engagements over Iraq were few in number. So they never ran out of Beyond Visual Range missiles. In an engagement with a force equally trained and matched in numbers the missiles will be quickly expended.

Then it will get real.