Letter of prophet Muhammad to Christians. Must See

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist


Cat Stevens and Cacius Clay were muslims ... they followed islam. You say no need to understand the whole but your last words need to be more of the outlook ... how 'THAT man', not the religion as a whole.

If we were to take your approach, we can reword your statement as follows:
Screw that! No one needs to try to understand christianity. they could preach peach and love all day long, but if they are molesting boys, worshipping idols, and coveting goods while people starve, while also preaching hate and acting divisive to society as a whole; well those actions speak loud and clear on how THAT man interprets his own holy texts.

When you twist everything around to fit a hateful agenda, you are just breeding more hate. When you choose ignorance over knowledge, you add to the downfall of humanity. You cannot chastise hate while spouting it.

Did you actually read what YOU wrote? If you did, are you saying you don't see a need for Christianity to be completely torn down and rebuilt? You mention Cat Stevens and Ali. I know Ali is too old and sick to do anything, but if people truly believe in god and in their religion, why aren't they fanatical about changing the egregious flaws in their operations; flaws that allow individuals to read hatred into their own scripture.

Without any threat to the belief in a god, religious texts can be altered. Remember it was man that put the bible together, so there should be no reason why man can't fix the flaws and omit or rewrite that which can be taken and used in a manner that is offensive to peace and love.

reply to post by Sonny2


That's laughable. Christianity, in reality, is a fulfillment of the Hebrew religion. It is not a new religion. All "Christians" are adopted children into God the Father's family and are therefore Jews!
Even as the Hebrews who deny Jesus as Christ are not.

reply to post by ak1409

so basically what you are trying to say is Islam is wrong just because its followers are wrong? with that line of thinking, i guess then Christianity and Judaism both are wrong as their followers are misinterpreting their own books too. You agree?

I don't know about jigger, but yes, I agree!! As long as a religion can be misinterpreted and used to oppress or harm ANYONE (which it is, every day of the year, with the Abrahamic religions...), it is WRONG.

And how come nobody ever mentions that Zoroastrainism is the "original" Abe-styled religion?
From 600 BC.
:shk:

reply to post by wildtimes


so now if you take a ferrari down the road and bang it up, its nt ur fault but ferraris fault, coz the car can be used for causing an accident and causing deaths eventually.. isnt that so? nice logic bro.. anythng and evrythng can be twisted and moulded to use in a negative way.. u use a knife to cut vegetables at home, bt u can use it to kill someone.. water is the most essential part of life, yet it can be used to drown someone.. so i guess water should be erased off the face of the earth coz its a tool to kill as well..

Originally posted by ak1409
reply to post by wildtimes

 

so now if you take a ferrari down the road and bang it up, its nt ur fault but ferraris fault, coz the car can be used for causing an accident and causing deaths eventually.. isnt that so? nice logic bro.. anythng and evrythng can be twisted and moulded to use in a negative way.. u use a knife to cut vegetables at home, bt u can use it to kill someone.. water is the most essential part of life, yet it can be used to drown someone.. so i guess water should be erased off the face of the earth coz its a tool to kill as well..

Exactly!
That logic has a gaping flaw. Wars were started and millions killed in the name of spreading freedom and democracy so by that logic democracy should be wiped out.

This kind of logic comes from people of a typical mindset who already disagree/dislike religions and find justifications to support their attitude but when it comes to misuse of ideology/system they agree/like then they show their hypocrisy and defend it as fault of certain people and not of the ideology/system.

reply to post by jiggerj

flaws that allow individuals to read hatred into their own scripture.

The Qur'an has already answered it

3:7-
He it is Who has
sent down to
thee the Book: In
it are verses basic
or fundamental
(of established meaning); they
are the
foundation of the
Book: others are
allegorical. But
those in whose hearts is
perversity follow
the part thereof
that is allegorical,
seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden
meanings, but no
one knows its
hidden meanings
except Allah.
And those who are firmly
grounded in
knowledge say:
"We believe in
the Book; the
whole of it is from our Lord:"
and none will
grasp the
Message except
men of
understanding.

Anything can be abused no matter how good it is,
i can use a pen to write but also poke it into someones eye!!
Should that be a reason to stop using a pen or altering its tip and making it soft and ruining the ability to write with it?!!

Why do you assume that people who misinterpret scriptures to spread hatred would not use some other way if scriptures did not let them do it by not having any verses like that.
Yes you would not be able to blame religions then but do you really think that hatred would not be propogated by other means??

The world wouldn't be better without religion. It would possibly be worse as people would do everything possible to make their own life better even at the expense of hurting others as they wouldn't be following all the good religious teachings too.

reply to post by logical7

but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Is the book for allah or for the people???

and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Is the book for a few smart people or for all the people? Doesn't all-knowing allah know how to talk to an idiot? Aren't men of understanding idiots compared to allah?

reply to post by jiggerj

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Is the book for allah or for the people???

its stupid if you have an ego and think that you can(have the ability to) understand everything.
That statement is teaching humility and thats the reason why people of understanding while giving interpretion of the Qur'an clear that "Allah knows best"
The statement in making people doubt their interpretation and so be careful in carrying it out.
Humble people don't go to extremes.

Is the book for a few smart people or
for all the people? Doesn't all-knowing
allah know how to talk to an idiot?

Yes, Allah is talking to Idiots in comparision.
Those who realise this "TRUTH" become "men of understanding."
Those who don't, become arrogant and think they created themselves or that they have the irrefutable authority to tell what Allah is saying!

Surah 2:
78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

reply to post by logical7

its stupid if you have an ego and think that you can(have the ability to) understand everything. That statement is teaching humility and thats the reason why people of understanding while giving interpretion of the Qur'an clear that "Allah knows best"

What good is it for a god to know best when not everyone can understand his message. That's utterly absurd.

reply to post by logical7

The world wouldn't be better without religion.

Erm.....beg to differ. Yes, it would.

It would possibly be worse as people would do everything possible to make their own life better even at the expense of hurting others as they wouldn't be following all the good religious teachings too.

Your innocence, while charming, is also alarming.
The world WOULD be better without religion. We have enough problems as it is.

reply to post by ak1409


I have no idea what your point is.

reply to post by logical7

That logic has a gaping flaw.

WHICH logic?

Wars were started and millions killed in the name of spreading freedom and democracy so by that logic democracy should be wiped out.

You have apparently chosen to ignore my recent thread in Social Issues.

WARS have been going on since the beginning of recorded history.
WAR is as counter-productive as RELIGION.
But, you just refuse to see that, don't you? Yes, you refuse to see it.

reply to post by logical7

Now I'm terribly confused.

3:7- He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book:

What book? I thought Qur'an was a recitation from an angel to be recited by the prophet to people. Did the angel hand a book to the prophet, or did the third Caliph compile the book?

So maybe I better back up and quote what comes before:

AL-BAQARA (THE COW), SHAKIR text:

Alif Lam Mim.
2 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
3 Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
4 And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
5 These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.
6 Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
. . .
Surah 3 YUSUFALI text
1 A. L. M.
2 Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Just copying this down made me more confused. Is it that Allah has set a seal upon my heart and upon my hearing and there is a covering over my eyes, and there is a great punishment for me? What am I to do about the Torah? What is the Criterion? Obviously I'm doomed.

reply to post by pthena

What book? I thought Qur'an was a recitation from an angel to be recited by the prophet to people. Did the angel hand a book to the prophet, or did the third Caliph compile the book?

heard a term "audio ebook"??
Qur'an is a Book sent down at once till the lowest Heaven and from there it was brought down by the angel part by part to Prophet Muhammad pbuh over a period of 23 years.
There are more reference to it being "The Book" and it answers your doubt.

"By the Book that makes
things clear – Indeed, We sent it down
on a blessed night, for surely We are
ever warning, by a command, from Our
presence, For We (ever) send
(revelations) as Mercy from your Lord: for He hears and knows (all
things)." [Sûrah al-Dukhkhân: 2-5]

so it was revealed in a night but came to the Prophet in 23 years.

Why do you assume that a Book has to be paper and ink? Why not a recitation?

Just copying this down made me more
confused. Is it that Allah has set a seal
upon my heart and upon my hearing
and there is a covering over my eyes,
and there is a great punishment for
me? What am I to do about the Torah? What is the Criterion? Obviously I'm
doomed.

yes, Its Allah who guides when He wishes you have no power to even believe. Want to prove that wrong and believe? Or want to not believe and still keep Allah's Statement True?
The Statement only bothers people who think they have any control over anything.
I am not doing any favour to Allah because i believe its Allah's favour to me that i believe.

reply to post by jiggerj

What good is it for a god to know best when not everyone can understand his message. That's utterly absurd.

everyone understands the basic message and should try to follow those basics rather many try to understand more than they can and then interpret things according to their desires.
The verse is also talking about the single arabic letters at the start of some surahs whose meaning nobody knows but it does not matter to men of understanding.

You are ripping out a few words from a verse and interpreting it by considering your reasoning/brain as Supreme and obviously end up calling the statement as absurd.

The whole moral teaching in the verse is directed at making the reader humble when using reason. You are completely failing at it and Judging the Qur'an by a few words taken out from a verse while you are completely ignorant about Qur'an.
You are obviously free to continue being ignorant and yet feel to have the capability to criticize.

What do you say of the double slit experiment when single photons produced an interference pattern hinting that that each photon passed through both slits? Now that must be absurd to you. Right?

reply to post by logical7

everyone understands the basic message and should try to follow those basics

What is the basic message? Is it love and understanding and forgiveness? If so, do you honestly think that mankind is so stupid that we couldn't have come up with this on our own?

It's just like the ten commandments. "Thou shalt not steal or murder or sleep with another man's wife." Really??? You mean the Jews were SO stupid that none of them knew these were unacceptable? Come on. Before Moses thought of scratching these things into tablets, the Jews had just come out of Egypt. Are you telling me that there were no laws against these acts? Or that China and the rest of the world were just a bunch of stealing, murderous sex fiends? Again, come on.

The whole moral teaching in the verse is directed at making the reader humble when using reason.

reply to post by logical7


Without religious texts the moral teachings can be figured out by a first grader that had his lunch stolen. By a teen that lost his girlfriend to another. By anyone witnessing a murder. There is no great wisdom in religious texts. The only thing profound is the message to listen to the wise men in control of a society (control you), all backed by the fear of an invisible oppressor.

reply to post by logical7

What do you say of the double slit experiment when single photons produced an interference pattern hinting that that each photon passed through both slits? Now that must be absurd to you. Right?

Absurd? No, it's quite natural. No magic involved. But because we don't fully comprehend it YOU are going to automatically jump to a mystical magical being causing it. Now THAT is absurd.

reply to post by logical7

Qur'an is a Book sent down at once till the lowest Heaven and from there it was brought down by the angel part by part to Prophet Muhammad pbuh over a period of 23 years.

I thought that the angel came down to the 5th heaven and the prophet ascended to the 3rd heaven and they communicated across the gulf of a whole 4th heaven. Did some one lie about this?

Its Allah who guides when He wishes you have no power to even believe. Want to prove that wrong and believe?

Surah 2 also says that many who go through all the motions of the believers are not believers. I tried to believe back in 2004. I didn't make it. So I won't go through the motions, since that's also futile.

The Statement only bothers people who think they have any control over anything.

Such as those who act upon a deep sense of personal ethics, and the belief that actions matter.

Okay, I'm done here. I don't think that you and the OP are in much agreement about Islam. I could be wrong though.

reply to post by jiggerj

What is the basic message? Is it love and understanding and forgiveness? If so, do you honestly think that mankind is so stupid that we couldn't have come up with this on our own?

if its so each then you must be practicing it fully and as you have come up with this on your own.
Somehow by reading your posts i don't get that picture.
Mankind is not stupid but once mankind drifts away to immorality then it becomes impossible to drift back to morality without outside help because if generations are doing something wrong then nobody would consider it wrong anymore. An extreme example would be ancient tribes practicing human sacrifice.
How do you think mankind will correct itself if the entire population drifts in a certain direction which is harmful but not so obvious directly as a cause-effect?
Do you think there is some kind of moral compass inside each?(thats why kids are innocent and pure)
I know there is but it is possible to get corrupted by surroundings and ones own selfish desires etc.
So what can re-calibrate it once its corrupted?