Will military and police disobey orders when the time comes?

Originally posted by bg_socalif

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

It ALWAYS angered me when the higher ups gave some Soldier grief because they didn't want to re-up. If they served their time honorably, let them go if that is what they want.

I can see pursuing a good Soldier, but at some point you have to let them go. I always encouraged the good ones to go Guard or Reserves, that way they could keep their options open, their skills sharp and make a bit spending money. Not all took it, but some did.

That used to tick me off to no end. I lost track how many times i was chewed out or "called onto the carpet". If the troop didn't want to stay in, fine. I'd give them all the information both pro and con and let them decide. The higher ups hated it because it looked "bad" on their command retention profile if the troop got out.

edit on 30-6-2013 by bg_socalif because: fat fingers on the keyboard.

I always hated that also, they were after my MOS constantly, because we have high level clearances, and there are so few of us, we are in integral part of any and all combat engagements, and one must be born with the correct skill set, it cant be taught.

Anyone can be trained to manipulate artillery pieces, all they have to do is line up the numbers I give them on the piece, the hard part is getting the numbers correct, every time, in time, without a single mistake, EVER!!!!

13-E Cannon fire direction control specialist, is only trained at one battalion in all the United States military, it is the brains, of the most effective combat weapon ever created by man, AKA "The King of Battle" the artillery.

A- 2/80th field artillery school Fort Sill OK, loving reffered to by everyone including the post commander, and the Command Sergeant Major as "ALPHATRAS", because we are on full lock down the entire 10 1/2 weeks, with the most exacting Drill Sergeants one will find in the military. It is one of the only jobs with ZERO room for error or failure EVER at any level.

So they like to keep us around, they try to coax us with fat bonuses, and our duty is always light, but 1 single mistake EVER, and it is the long dishonorable walk into the waiting walls of Fort Levenworth Kansas, as you just killed our guys instead of their guys.

When the infantry says they need a danger close fire mission, and they want the rounds 100 meters from their position, they dont mean 200 meters from it, and they dont mean 50 meters from it, they mean exactly, to the meter 100m from their position, and in training or combat, we are shooting 100 LBS bullets, with a 30 LBS steel casing and 70 LBS of military grade high ex, with a 99% casualty radius of 100 meters in all directions, for anyone not in cover, with a 20 meter timed( where the fuse time is set manually, meaning we have to calculate "square weight" of the rounds, all rounds dont weigh the same, even "lots" of the same type weigh different, every variable you could imagine, including rotation of the earth, as the round goes so high the earth actually rotates underneath it, and the round having a right spin pulls it right, so we adjust it left to compensate) or with a automatic VT fuse, that has a radio transmitter head, that blows up when it hears itself at exactly 20 meters from the ground, height of detonation for maximum effective dispersal.

Yes before you ask, I am in love with the field artillery, and yes, my heart does begin beating a little faster, as I lick my lips, pupils wide, every time I even think I hear the words "FIRE MISSION!!!", because I know, I am about to get to do complex math, and then gauge my performance in real time, as I count down over the coms tick....tick....tick....5..4....3...2..1....SPLASH!!! And I already know it will take exactly X seconds for the sound to reach me, depending on the air density, wind direction and speed, rotation of the earth, general humidity, air temp, and distance/time of flight to target.......and then I hear it.....WOOOMP on the horizon, followed quickly by radio contact from the 13-F(fox) saying "target destroyed""....adjust fire, + 500, left 250...tank battalion in the open...FIRE FOR EFFECT!!!!!! "And the rounds go down range at such a pace, it amazes, even the most seasoned of artillery men, as at first 1 LARGE boomb as all the battery fires at once, in one glorius salvo, followed by a almost popcorn sounding effect, as the more experienced gunners outpace their lesser brothers in loading and firing........until we hear the only words that will make us stop, "target destroyed", and the only words that will trample our joy....END OF MISSION....

Artillery says to its enemies- "Dont run, you will just die tired"

Ok, I think I need a cold shower now, that was an amazingly enjoyable blast from the past, I miss it soooooooo much

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
I'm guessing...if SHTF....first order of busyness...proclaim all protesters drugged up hippies or communists. That way, an average Joe military can have his peace of mind while unleashing hell...

Seriously...I don't hope for much from the military...not collectively anyway. Some individuals will resist, but most will blindly follow orders. They've been conditioned to follow orders. It's not really their choice. Military does not like to give choices...it would not work. All the MSM needs to do is explain how patriotic it is...people eat that sh-it up with a spoon...

You havent served have you? If you had, you would know alot better than that i promise.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
I'm guessing...if SHTF....first order of busyness...proclaim all protesters drugged up hippies or communists. That way, an average Joe military can have his peace of mind while unleashing hell...

Seriously...I don't hope for much from the military...not collectively anyway. Some individuals will resist, but most will blindly follow orders. They've been conditioned to follow orders. It's not really their choice. Military does not like to give choices...it would not work. All the MSM needs to do is explain how patriotic it is...people eat that sh-it up with a spoon...

You havent served have you? If you had, you would know alot better than that i promise.

care to clarify further ?

Which part "I don't know"...

obama what can i say?

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly

Originally posted by inverslyproportional

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
I'm guessing...if SHTF....first order of busyness...proclaim all protesters drugged up hippies or communists. That way, an average Joe military can have his peace of mind while unleashing hell...

Seriously...I don't hope for much from the military...not collectively anyway. Some individuals will resist, but most will blindly follow orders. They've been conditioned to follow orders. It's not really their choice. Military does not like to give choices...it would not work. All the MSM needs to do is explain how patriotic it is...people eat that sh-it up with a spoon...

You havent served have you? If you had, you would know alot better than that i promise.

care to clarify further ?

Which part "I don't know"...

MOST do not "blindly" follow orders, your saying so is a giant signal flare to any who have served saying" I never served, but I think I know what I am talking about".

Which I assure you, you obviously have no idea what your talking about.

Hey I know, why dont you explain how it all works, and the intimate details about all that service entails since your an expert....... oh wait, it is obvious you didnt, from the things you type.

Clarification enough for you?

Not trying to be obtuse, but it is the arm chair quarterback cliche in its epitome, you have not served, know nothing about it, thus cant say anything either way, as you would not know.

I am not a chinese citizen, thus I could not say honestly, what the chinese want, think, or would do in any situation, I may only speculate as an outsider, do you see the difference?

The fact is the US does not have the ability to declare martial law on a national scale. It is hard pressed to even control a city after a disaster. This is an area that US is sevely lacking in. We have no real internal security forces because we do not need them. The rich and powerful have it made right now if anyone tried to change the US into a 3rd world police state they would never allow it.

reply to post by MrSpad
you forgot about DHS FBI BATF and TSA, FEMA, lets not forget National Guard, when gold becomes less that a bowl of corn flacks, and the dollar is less than a corn flake, who do you think the rich will have as protecting what they have left from all them preppers out there waiting to take that last flake or bowl of flakes?

end of reply now to the readers

ask any long term grunt what they think of when, Society takes the big dump in the can, will they stand for their CO's and Commander n Chief or will they turn on their family they have been fateful to, referring to E8 and above, in all branches, in 87 I asked this very question to some of the top brass, did not get a full Yes or no but was called some pretty choice words and was well disowned by they very ones i did the work for. Short carer as well no benefits, they will not even admit i was in there it is in B&W what ya gone do now, come after me NSA? 4 short of 30 I do not think any give a crap about 30 years ago black ops. well DOD and NSA might.

Yes I am on one to day

it is a good thing we have a new force one that is free thinking and willing to say FU when it come's to Civil matters, but then what will they be told when the time comes if it ever does, will you still say FU or will be the first to lock and load?

reply to post by Quauhtli


their families will be safe as long as they obey

No, they won't, but they will commit suicide en masse once they realize the atrocities they've committed.

Think about it. Is any competent government going to say, "we need you to go slaughter a town full of civilians," or is it going to say, "we need you to take out a domestic terrorist cell in town X."?

When has morality ever stopped the cops? Remember Waco? Kent State?

Truth is the first casualty of war.

reply to post by bekod

Let me get this straight you asked a loyalty question and got burned for it?
And this was what MOS?

The easiest way to understand this is first to question whether or not the population deserves to be locked into FEMA camps or not.

Locking up the population is not a project that comes easily or on a whim. However, it may be necessary as a move that ensures humans can one day be a thriving and peaceful race.

I dont see a peaceful race, I see a race with child like views (religion, ownership, greed) that needs a firm hand in order to make it through to the next century.

Some things are needed. The need to abolish religions is paramount and the governments see this. Without complete control over the population this can never be accomplished.

Im not saying it will be a picnic in these FEMA camps but I am saying that one day they may be looked back upon as the savior of the human race.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

Not trying to be obtuse, but it is the arm chair quarterback cliche in its epitome, you have not served

Indeed it is a cliche...and I know people don't like being in one...yet we all are. Maybe you think you are somehow special...that your life is not a cliche...but you are mistaken.

Anyway...my opinion is based solely on the fact that if you were to think for your self...there would be no military. You wouldn't go to Iraq or Afghanistan...if you think for your selves. You wouldn't be blowin' people up from the helicopter...if you weren't blindly following orders. A sane person wouldn't, anyway.

There would be no wars...if soldiers weren't blindly following orders...there is always one side oppressing the other. Which means that soldiers of that side are blindly following orders and oppressing someone, killing, raping.

Now, sometimes....you may be on the receiving end of that stick...but that does not negate the fact that...soldiers follow orders...it's what they do...it's what they have been trained to do.

In fact...it's what makes mililtary function in the first place....blindly following authority. Maybe you've been offended, because it hits too close to home...and you feel stupid today for going in to some war...but that's your cue man....as soon as you took up arms...and went outside your borders to kill people that weren't attacking you...you were obviously not thinking...but blindly following orders.

Now...you can start your patriotic rant...


p.s.

You are right...I didn't serve...I chose not to enlist....because I don't like guns or people that carry them (I know...it's a shock for the Americans). And wars are rarely about anything but human lunacy...and I want no part in it. If it makes you breathe easier...you can label me tree hugging hippie....

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Back to reality -

How many foriegn troops are in our country? How many russian troops? With the FEMA agreement now out in the open, Will russian troops be here "working with the US military" or attempting to slaughter them?

I'm being serious. I don't believe american troops will just "fire on american citizens" but russian troops will - and the US military troops.

reply to post by cavtrooper7
32B ts 19D now know as 98H, 19D as far as I can tell, not much on the MOS of the 1980's Mech cav recon is still Mech cav recon, and Intel is Intel do not know if I can say more do not want NSA, DoD knocking on my door can say form 86m87 Basic Fort lost in the woods, AIT Fort Konx and fort Hood, will say this about Ft. Hood, home of the 3rd and the 66th MI.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


It's also cliché that many Servicemembers would call you tree hugger, hippie, useless eater, etc, etc. But those same Servicemembers would lay down their lives to protect you...whether you wanted them to or not.

And you must remember, the US Military is under civilian leadership. Put there by the people. So if you think that the military is doing something stupid, look in the mirror. Chances are you helped put TPTB in power.

I have had this conversation many times with my fellow Soldiers and not a single one would use force on the civilian populace, unless those civilians started something bad they couldn't finish. Kind of like what those anarchist folks do at Occupy events. That never seems to work out to well for them does it?

I wonder if the anarchists will disobey the orders of their leadership this year. Personally, I doubt it because that is what they were trained to do. They don't think for themselves to well.

reply to post by bekod


A sheep dipped scout then.
How did you get out of a shortage MOS?
I applied for sniper school 7 times but was rejected every time,by TRADOC.

reply to post by cavtrooper7
well 2 out 10 get in it takes a lot to become one , as for me well I learned how to brown nose for sometime, one has to eat S to get the golden egg. look up what it takes to become one then on your off days go get practice a Rem 700 is a good start, one of the best learn all its in and outs then be prepared to eat more S, then you might make it , an other is mentality when you look thought and see in your X hairs a T-O-P, will you pull the trigger , say it is your girl friend or mother dad and the order comes down, cold yes, but this is what it takes , every spent round will eat you up and make you sick this is what it is meant to do. If you become numb and complacent or could do it in your sleep with out thinking time to get out www.specialoperations.com...
ok might not be the best but it is a start to make you think , ask your self this, can I sleep with the nastiest things on earth for days weeks on end and then when the time comes.... one shot one kill, and be ready for the next. and do it with a smile, with a pit in your gut. www.benning.army.mil... welcome to hell, one round is all you l need.

back to the subject not all will obey , some will and they are the obedient ones, programed robots that do not have any thought's of humanity left. For they think of them selves above all, the Job is is their mother, farther, brother, sister and lover. say for every 1000 there are 100 that think that way. and yes I do know of a few, form all branches of service USMC AF USRA and some LEO's as well

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

Not trying to be obtuse, but it is the arm chair quarterback cliche in its epitome, you have not served

Indeed it is a cliche...and I know people don't like being in one...yet we all are. Maybe you think you are somehow special...that your life is not a cliche...but you are mistaken.

Anyway...my opinion is based solely on the fact that if you were to think for your self...there would be no military. You wouldn't go to Iraq or Afghanistan...if you think for your selves. You wouldn't be blowin' people up from the helicopter...if you weren't blindly following orders. A sane person wouldn't, anyway.

There would be no wars...if soldiers weren't blindly following orders...there is always one side oppressing the other. Which means that soldiers of that side are blindly following orders and oppressing someone, killing, raping.

Now, sometimes....you may be on the receiving end of that stick...but that does not negate the fact that...soldiers follow orders...it's what they do...it's what they have been trained to do.

In fact...it's what makes mililtary function in the first place....blindly following authority. Maybe you've been offended, because it hits too close to home...and you feel stupid today for going in to some war...but that's your cue man....as soon as you took up arms...and went outside your borders to kill people that weren't attacking you...you were obviously not thinking...but blindly following orders.

Now...you can start your patriotic rant...


p.s.

You are right...I didn't serve...I chose not to enlist....because I don't like guns or people that carry them (I know...it's a shock for the Americans). And wars are rarely about anything but human lunacy...and I want no part in it. If it makes you breathe easier...you can label me tree hugging hippie....

edit on 2-7-2013 by MarioOnTheFly because: (no reason given)

So then, you have not served, do not understand the mindset of those who do, or would want to, as you dont even understand the mindset of those that choose to carry a firearm.

Yet you somehow think your in a position to pass judgement on them, or what they would or wouldnt do in a scenario.

All the while ignoring, or waving off the informed opinions of those of us who have, thus would know what those still in would be thinking and doing.

Thanks you cleared that up nicely.

reply to post by TDawgRex

But those same Servicemembers would lay down their lives to protect you

I was waiting for that one....yes...my security...it's in danger...I need the military to rescue my fragile safety.

Newsflash my dear co-member of this site. I have far less alphabet agencies here where I live....and far less people carrying guns...unless they are disturbed by the last war on independence my country fought. Guess what...nobody is attacking us...nobody is blowing # up...and nobody is taking down towers (we have 2 or 3) or committing murders/suicides on the streets. We are mostly calm, docile people...just going about our busyness.

We don't intrude...hence...others don't intrude on us. It's a two way street you know.


My country fought a war...20 years ago...I was present...we had no military....and I mean that literally. All the military was Yugoslavian. And it was against us becoming independant...yet....we prevailed. With bare arms and sticks. Because we defended our own...because we fought for freedom. The only war worth fighting for.

Your military...does not fight just wars...there is no just motive behind it. That's all that matters. But you can try to justify it in your mind...the only way it let's you sleep easier.

And you must remember, the US Military is under civilian leadership. Put there by the people. So if you think that the military is doing something stupid, look in the mirror. Chances are you helped put TPTB in power

I never did. I don't vote...as I see the charade. It's the same everywhere in the world...they lie...you suck it up...they get rich off it. I'm a silent participant in this civilization. My mind works so beautifully innocently childlish...that I dare not even preach it. But it works for me.

I have had this conversation many times with my fellow Soldiers and not a single one would use force on the civilian populace

I pray to God...or to universe...that you are right...but I'm skeptical. Having in mind that people are still to this day being brutally murdered...innocent people...civilians...tells me, that there will be no peace...human life is second to interests. Fact.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

So then, you have not served, do not understand the mindset of those who do, or would want to, as you dont even understand the mindset of those that choose to carry a firearm.

don't make it special or holy...you are just giving in to your primitive instinctive fears. In the end...you have to ask yourself...is it better to take a life or to give your own. In your own personal tiny universe...where nothing matters but you...(you go to Iraq because they told you it's you or them....or even better, them or your family...and you believed it)...but than you are just an animal...a classic animal that only thinks about personal survival. It does not ponder species...it just acts...instinctively...just like most that carry an conceal. First sign of trouble...you take it out...that's why you carry...and conceal...because...it's you or them.


Yet...I bet you are a believer in some God...no doubt...one that preaches thou shalt not kill...and I bet you wore a crucifix around your neck to protect you from the evil hosts. Nothing gets me up and going like occupying soldier praying to God to keep him safe...seeing him kiss the crux...just makes my day.

Yet you somehow think your in a position to pass judgement on them, or what they would or wouldnt do in a scenario.

I'm here on this forum to pass judgement from my perspective...we all are. Whether it's just or unjust...it's up to...God or forum moderators. All you can do is like it or don't. I actually prefer you don't. That way we have something to talk about.

Thanks you cleared that up nicely.

I added to this post to clear it up...in case it wasn't....