who decides what is Indoctrination?

reply to post by logical7


I don't understand how you can compare a man which did not harm a single person in his life time... and a man who was a warlord.

Regardless of whether or not he was simply defending his land and people... He was not the same as Jesus...

Not even close...

Those who live by the sword also die by the sword... and must deal with the consequences of using that sword...

Jesus did not use a sword... only in allegory

He used knowledge of his father... and accepted his fate

reply to post by logical7

In other words ... you asked what the logical thing to do is ... I gave you the logical things to do ... and you ignored the logical. Okay ... got it. You really didn't want to know what the logical thing to do was. Get back to us when you are ready to answer the question ... what proof is there that Muhammad was a prophet and actually had authentic visions from God?

reply to post by logical7

You say Sharia is ... sharia is ...

Here is what Sharia is ... it's evil. It's not civilized. It is laws made up 1400 years ago by a bunch of peasants who bought into the rantings of a liar who claimed visions from God and who gave absolutely no proof of his rants. It's pushing those archaic and backwards religious laws onto people who know enough not to believe in them.

ANYONE who would go along with chopping off the hand of their child just because that child got caught stealing .. anyone who would gladly cause their child to be crippled for his/her entire life over a small matter like that ... they aren't thinking in a civilized manner. It's just that simple. Illogical and evil.

Originally posted by logical7
Muhammad pbuh was a defender, the last i checked self-defence is a valid reason to fight.

He had his political rivals murdered. He raided caravans and stole from the peasants. None of that was self defense. It was just a crooked politician gaining power at the expense of the people around him. Just like crooked politicans do today.

Muhammad/Bush43 ... same/same
Muhammad/Jimmy Swaggart ..... same/same.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

I don't understand how you can compare a man which did not harm a single person in his life time... and a man who was a warlord.

Regardless of whether or not he was simply defending his land and people... He was not the same as Jesus...

Not even close...

Those who live by the sword also die by the sword... and must deal with the consequences of using that sword...

Jesus did not use a sword... only in allegory

He used knowledge of his father... and accepted his fate

you are imposing your understanding and expectations on how various prophets should have behaved. Lets see if this sounds ridiculous, "David pbuh should not have slayed Goliath but appealed to the UN"!
you have a 21st century worldview and you take it back in time to judge history by the same glasses.
Jesus pbuh did not behave in a peaceful way because his purpose was different, he is to return and then wage a war against injustice. Will you abandon/reject Jesus pbuh when he returns and uses the sword?

The main theme of all prophets was to teach people to worship God alone, if you do that then you are doing great. Muhammad pbuh taught the same, he just had to make sure that his message stays protected as he was the last prophet coming with the last revealation about which Jesus pbuh talked. He prophecised that the spirit of truth will come.

John 16:
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes,
he will guide you into all the truth. He
will not speak on his own; he will
speak only what he hears, and he
will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he
will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is
why I said the Spirit will receive from
me what he will make known to
you.”

So is it holy ghost that speaks what he hears or its the Qur'an which literally means a recital!
the 1st verse that was revealed started with "Recite!..."
Did the holy ghost tell you signs of last day or Muhammad pbuh taught in detail the major and minor signs of the last day?

reply to post by logical7

you are imposing your understanding and expectations on how various prophets should have behaved. Lets see if this sounds ridiculous, "David pbuh should not have slayed Goliath but appealed to the UN"!

Well that was a one on one battle... and you're talking to the wrong guy about the OT brother...

OT God is evil incarnate in my humble opinion so any reference to it will usually not be met with good results with me...

you have a 21st century worldview and you take it back in time to judge history by the same glasses.

I live in the 21 century my friend... and we can only judge history by what is written

Jesus pbuh did not behave in a peaceful way because his purpose was different, he is to return and then wage a war against injustice. Will you abandon/reject Jesus pbuh when he returns and uses the sword?

Revelation is the same thing... a book written by an old man in a cave... likely suffering from some form of dementia in his old age...

Jesus is not going to return to wage war on anyone... Its up to us to figure this world out... And I don't think we have the capacity as a species...

The main theme of all prophets was to teach people to worship God alone, if you do that then you are doing great. Muhammad pbuh taught the same, he just had to make sure that his message stays protected as he was the last prophet coming with the last revealation about which Jesus pbuh talked. He prophecised that the spirit of truth will come.

Do you not know that a lot of the OT prophets were also warlords like your prophet?

DO you believe moses led a group of women and children and peasants into the desert after the Exodus?

If you believe that you are sorely mistaken... Moses was the leader of an army... They were not offered gold when they left Egypt... they took it by force... Joshua was also a warlord... he and his army kill thousands... raped and pillaged their way through the land...

So is it holy ghost that speaks what he hears or its the Qur'an which literally means a recital!
the 1st verse that was revealed started with "Recite!..."
Did the holy ghost tell you signs of last day or Muhammad pbuh taught in detail the major and minor signs of the last day?

What holy ghost?

I no nothing of any ghost... I've never seen a spirit In my life... but I know the heart of man...

And through out history worlds were taken by violence... Yet the message of Jesus still managed to stand strong... and it is still our only hope to survive our own demise as a species....

Who else will save us from ourselves?

reply to post by wildtimes

It first makes it clear that its a revealation from God by giving proofs for itself and once you are assured of that, then you will believe what it says about all topics.

Which is EXACTLY what the people who believe in 'the Bible' say - NEWS FLASH......
"The Bible Says" is not PROOF that what 'the Bible says' is true.

But that's what fundamentalist Christians do - Well, the Bible says, so it must be true, because the Bible says it's true.'

Dude. You seriously don't see the logical problem with that????

reply to post by Akragon

Well that was a one on one battle... and you're talking to the wrong guy about the OT brother... OT God is evil incarnate in my humble opinion so any reference to it will usually not be met with good results with me...

it wasn't just one on one battle. It was two armies fighting and David pbuh belonged to one side.
My view on OT is that it is a misrepesentation of God and prophets that happened because scribes included their own ideas and superior complex into the OT.

Jesus is not going to return to wage
war on anyone... Its up to us to figure
this world out... And I don't think we
have the capacity as a species...

muslims are not waiting like some christians. Yes it is our responsibility to make to world better. In Qur'an God puts the responsibility of the well being of earth on humans as care takers.
We have the capacity just people are divided because they are becoming very individualist, unless they unite under a common spiritual goal, they cannot overlook the differences.

Do you not know that a lot of the OT
prophets were also warlords like your
prophet? DO you believe moses led a group of
women and children and peasants
into the desert after the Exodus? If you believe that you are sorely
mistaken... Moses was the leader of an
army... They were not offered gold
when they left Egypt...

i know a lot about Moses pbuh from Qur'an and he is a prophet, maybe this will surprise you, God is talking to Jews in Qur'an

Surah 2:
58. And (remember) when We said: "Enter this town
(Jerusalem) and eat bountifully
therein with pleasure and
delight wherever you wish, and
enter the gate in prostration (or
bowing with humility) and say: 'Forgive us,' and We shall forgive
you your sins and shall increase
(reward) for the good-doers."
59. But those who did wrong changed the word from that
which had been told to them for
another, so We sent upon the
wrong-doers Rijzan (a
punishment) from the heaven
because of their rebelling against Allah's Obedience.

do you think i am a blind fan of OT? I am not.

What holy ghost? I no nothing of any ghost... I've never
seen a spirit In my life... but I know the
heart of man... And through out history worlds were
taken by violence... Yet the message of
Jesus still managed to stand strong...
and it is still our only hope to survive
our own demise as a species.... Who else will save us from ourselves?

that was not an answer to my post. Who is that "Spirit of Truth"? Who is going to repeat what he hears? Who is going to tell about the things to come?
Even jews were waiting for another prophet at the time of Jesus pbuh.

John 1:21
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

so they expected a Messiah and a prophet yet to come and John the baptist had already come.
Jesus pbuh is the Messiah and Muhammad pbuh is the Prophet.

Jews had even settled near Madina as they knew the place where the Prophet would come. They rejected Muhammad pbuh as he was arab and they expected someone jewish.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by wildtimes

 

It first makes it clear that its a revealation from God by giving proofs for itself and once you are assured of that, then you will believe what it says about all topics.

Which is EXACTLY what the people who believe in 'the Bible' say - NEWS FLASH......
"The Bible Says" is not PROOF that what 'the Bible says' is true.

But that's what fundamentalist Christians do - Well, the Bible says, so it must be true, because the Bible says it's true.'

Dude. You seriously don't see the logical problem with that????

edit on 30-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Read what i say carefully!!
I am not asking to accept a circular logic that some christians use.

Qur'an takes the reader from known things and makes him/her think about them and builds a logical arguement that satisfies reason. There are few ways its done, either by the liguistic miracle, many arabs during Muhammad pbuh accepted Islam by just hearing the Qur'an and their passion was poems and they were proud of their poetic skills but Qur'an is not poetry.
God also understands the psychology and thought process of the reader and Qur'an's verse progress that same way as the thoughts and this was what hit me and made me a fan of Qur'an. Its God talking, give it a try, try beating the Qur'an, take it as a challenge.

I am just saying that First establish that Qur'an is from God by the proofs it provides and then its just logical to believe it about Unseen things/events.
makes sense? Isnt that how a testimony works?
Qur'an is its own proof, try googling Qur'anic Miracles and one that amazes me are the mathametical miracles.

If you don't want to do any of the above then what exactly is your goal in talking with me?
You want to discuss Qur'an then read it 1st. You want to discuss Muhammad pbuh read Karen's biography about him 1st and then we can talk, right?

reply to post by FlyersFan

what proof is there that
Muhammad was a prophet and
actually had authentic visions from
God?

there is historical proof about him, no figure in history has been preserved with such details as prophet Muhammad pbuh. There are biographies of 10000 of his companions who give testimonies about him, report his life in very detail.
Reading a biography of him would be a start. A recent one was written by Lesley Hazelton, an agnostic jew. So you may read it and believe it as its not by a muslim or Karen Armstrong wrote a biography too and she is a respectable historian.
The Best proof is Qur'an. Try and find what scholars say about it. It as a literature, the scientific miracles etc.
If you keep believing the christian right groups and websites and their disgusting trick to twist things then you are choosing to seek only confirmation.
I can talk to you but i see very clearly that you don't want a serious discussion.
I agree with a lot of your opinions about society and you are quiet conservative in many things.
You believe in God also in Heaven and Hell so we have a lot in common(lets not argue on how the heaven and hell would really be)

Many things you say are completely untrue. Would you like to have a talk and be ready to change your view if you get proof that your opinion was untrue?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

what proof is there that Muhammad was a prophet and actually had authentic visions from God?

there is historical proof about him, no figure in history has been preserved with such details as prophet Muhammad

Lots of proof because no figure in history has been preserved so well?? GOOD!
GIVE US THE PROOF THAT THE VISIONS WERE AUTHENTIC.
Pointing to biographies about someone isn't proof. It's just a biography.
WHAT PROOF is there that his 'visions' were from God. Give it to me chapter and verse.
Something miraculous to back up Muhammads claim.
Don't give me the claim .. anyone can claim visions.
Give me the proof.

Originally posted by logical7
try googling Qur'anic Miracles and one that amazes me are the mathametical miracles.

try googling Qu'ranic errors and one that amazes me are the syntax errors (if written by God, he really got confused as to who was talking ... first person, second person, third person, back and forth) ... as well as all the scientific and historical errors.

quote]Originally posted by logical7
I am not asking to accept a circular logic that some christians use.
But you are. Unless you can come up with some proof that Muhammads visions
were actually from God ... you are using circular logic by accepting them simply
because Muhammad said they were authentic.

Two girls in Pakistan, dancing in the rain - family member shot them AND their mother dead. Honor killing.

Check General Chit Chat.
I'm sorry for the well-meaning Muslims. It's the whack-job ones that give them ALL an aura of suspicion. And since we can't determine which ones will behave like that or not, well, logical solution is to avoid them all. I'm sorry about that, but it is what it is, for now at least.

And now Tahrir square is erupting AGAIN.....
Morsi was making 'alliance' with Obama, wasn't he? Muslim Brotherhood. Not going over so well.
There was a bit about it on "Here and Now" with Robin Young on NPR this afternoon.


Things are just getting worse.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Don't give me the claim .. anyone can claim visions. Give me the proof.

lets go step wise. Forget about Muhammad pbuh as a prophet, first try and know him as a historical figure, you have enough misconceptions on even that.
I have quoted some historians to you who are talking about him. DO you agree/acknowlegde what they are saying? If not then you are not really looking for truth and i'l leave you pleased inside the bubble of your making.

reply to post by wildtimes

And since we can't determine which ones will behave like that or not, well, logical solution is to avoid them all. I'm sorry about that, but it is what it is, for now at least.

oh yes very logical, i should also avoid all US citizens as a good number of them are raping and killing their own.
I think you should stop showing yourself as someone working towards peace. You don't get peace by chanting the word.

And now Tahrir square is erupting
AGAIN.....
Morsi was making 'alliance' with
Obama, wasn't he? Muslim
Brotherhood. Not going over so well.
There was a bit about it on "Here and Now" with Robin Young on NPR this
afternoon.

Things are just getting worse.

YES, Things are getting worse for USA and egyptian people are refusing a puppet president who works to forward interests of a foreign country rather than solving problems of his own country.
Its good for the people of egypt maybe you in USA can take a lesson and get out of your comfortable couch and get on streets in enough numbers to scare the government into changing foreign policy and put more effort in solving problems at home.

I think we have nothing more to talk as i see you just making excuses to continue believing what you are made to believe. I also see that you want people to want what you want rather than respecting them as human beings capable to know what they want even if its not what you want.

reply to post by wildtimes

And since we can't determine which ones will behave like that or not, well, logical solution is to avoid them all. I'm sorry about that, but it is what it is, for now at least.

oh yes very logical, i should also avoid all US citizens as a good number of them are raping and killing their own.
I think you should stop showing yourself as someone working towards peace. You don't get peace by chanting the word.

And now Tahrir square is erupting
AGAIN.....
Morsi was making 'alliance' with
Obama, wasn't he? Muslim
Brotherhood. Not going over so well.
There was a bit about it on "Here and Now" with Robin Young on NPR this
afternoon.

Things are just getting worse.

YES, Things are getting worse for USA and egyptian people are refusing a puppet president who works to forward interests of a foreign country rather than solving problems of his own country.
Its good for the people of egypt maybe you in USA can take a lesson and get out of your comfortable couch and get on streets in enough numbers to scare the government into changing foreign policy and put more effort in solving problems at home.

I think we have nothing more to talk as i see you just making excuses to continue believing what you are made to believe. I also see that you want people to want what you want rather than respecting them as human beings capable to know what they want even if its not what you want.

I think we have nothing more to talk as i see you just making excuses to continue believing what you are made to believe.

I continue believing what I am informed about by paying attention with my own eyes, ears, brain, and education.

I also see that you want people to want what you want rather than respecting them as human beings capable to know what they want even if its not what you want.

That is absolute crap.