who decides what is Indoctrination?

reply to post by Akragon

IF we've made it this far through out time... what makes you believe anyone could be destined for "hell" this time around?

What? I didnt get you.
Are you saying that generations who have passed will not be judged?
The Judgement Day(the Hour) is a future event where everyone who ever lived will be judged. Is that so difficult to understand? Jesus pbuh talked about The Hour.

The problem with assuming God as
just a Parent is that you fail to see the
whole picture.
Yes, a parent cannot torture his own
child but what if that child has kill
another child whom the parent loved equally?
Forgiving the 1st is balant injustice to
the 2nd. Right?

So an eye for an eye is better then to
"turn the other cheek"?

again What?
There is a thing called Justice. Turning the other cheek does not over ride ultimate Justice of God, it is just a teaching to have patience and not to seek vengence in this life.

If the 2nd child shows remorse and
repents then sure God is Forgiving but
if not..?
God is sure more Merciful that even a
parent but isn't God also Absolutely
Just? So unless you believe the christian doctrine that God killed
Himself for sins of all and in that way
took care of His Absolute Justice then
you still have to include Absolute
Justice in the equation and not just
Loving Parent.

Im sorry I don't understand what you
just said...

everybody would get their karma and there is no reincarnation just one life and then an afterlife.
God has more Attributes along with being Loving and Merciful and i am talking about His Absolute Justice.
If someone wrongs you, he/she would have to answer on Judgement Day unless you forgive and if you do, God would also be more forgiving to you for the wrongs you did against God.
In short everyone will be dealt the way he/she was with others in this world.

Originally posted by guitarplayer
There many forms of what you call indoctrination. All children are indoctrinated in one form or another by their parents. Who are you or I to say that the way one brings up a child is any of yours or my business? Many would say that religious indoctrination is evil and many would say no religious education is evil. Some would say that teaching a child about what they the parents believes is abuse to what standard should that be measured against? It seems like many people want to make it their business of how other people should raise their children. I find it rather hypocritical when population control advocates have two or three of their own children but want to control how many children other folks should have. And I find it hypocritical when social service people want to control how you bring up your child when they themselves are childless.

well, i agree.
Nobody has the right to point fingers as for all they know they are the ones who are indoctrinated.

I am also strictly against anyone deciding how parents should raise their kids.

Originally posted by logical7
hell is actually a very logical teaching, its basically an exagerated consequence of bad deeds. I guess you believe in karma. Hell is just extreme karma.

To those of us who have come to the conclusion that life doesn't end when the organic body dies, hell makes sense. Not the 'pit of fire' images which were invented so the peasants could understand the concept ... but a 'hell' specially designed for the soul AND BY THE SOUL after the body dies. Those who go to hell build their own hell by their own actions and their own thoughts. That's my thought. They create the negative place and situation. (that's my thought ... I don't think it's in any book)

Everything is energy. The soul is energy. If it is negative, then it will be drawn to negative energy after it is released from the dead organic body. So positive energy will be drawn to the positive (heaven) and negative will be drawn to the negative (hell). Looking at the soul as energy .. it makes sense.

For those who have come to the conclusion that there is no soul and so there is nothing after death, then "hell" doesn't make sense to them.

Originally posted by mideast
You just insist that all Muslims are indoctrinated ?

All muslims ARE indoctrinated. So are all Catholics. So are all Baptists. etc etc

I have studied about education system in your country.

Yes .. I"m sure that the Iranian Government has provided you with all sorts of alleged 'facts' :shk:

Your TV popular culture is also unique kind of canalizing minds and hearts of the people.

... says the person who is totally indoctrinated into what the Iranian government tells him to think.

reply to post by logical7


Oh... hi...

thought you forgot about me...

What? I didnt get you.
Are you saying that generations who have passed will not be judged?
The Judgement Day(the Hour) is a future event where everyone who ever lived will be judged. Is that so difficult to understand? Jesus pbuh talked about The Hour.

No... Im saying those that have lived and passed have already been judged...

Is that so difficult to understand?

again What?
There is a thing called Justice. Turning the other cheek does not over ride ultimate Justice of God, it is just a teaching to have patience and not to seek vengence in this life.

Perhaps Gods idea of Justice isn't the same as yours....

everybody would get their karma and there is no reincarnation just one life and then an afterlife.

I disagree... the human life is a mere blink of a eye in the history of time as we know it... The spirit has existed since the beginning... and will continue to exist after the end of this world... as will we... as we always have

God has more Attributes along with being Loving and Merciful and i am talking about His Absolute Justice.

Actually you are talking about your opinion of absolute justice...

If someone wrongs you, he/she would have to answer on Judgement Day unless you forgive and if you do, God would also be more forgiving to you for the wrongs you did against God.
In short everyone will be dealt the way he/she was with others in this world.

And what makes you think that God wouldn't return said person to the physical... so he can receive exactly what he dealt in his previous incarnation?

You get exactly what you give... as you just stated...

reply to post by Akragon

No... Im saying those that have lived and passed have already been judged... Is that so difficult to understand?

do you have any proof? Its not difficult to understand. Its just difficult to accept as the Truth.

Perhaps Gods idea of Justice isn't the
same as yours....

and who has the authority to speak about what God's idea really is?

I disagree... the human life is a mere
blink of a eye in the history of time as
we know it... The spirit has existed
since the beginning... and will
continue to exist after the end of this
world... as will we... as we always have

let me ask some questions then, if the spirit will continue to exist, will it be always in body form? If no, Why not?
Why was the body form given? Any purpose?

And what makes you think that God
wouldn't return said person to the
physical... so he can receive exactly
what he dealt in his previous
incarnation? You get exactly what you give... as
you just stated...

well it doesnt fit, reincarnations would continue endlessly.
Let me simplify by making the world contain two people(soul), you and me.
If i wrong you and my account is -7 and you wronged me too but yours is -3 then in the next life, i will get wronged by you -7 and you will get wronged by -3. It did not become zero the wrongs in the world remained -10.
For reincarnations to stop it should become zero, that is, the world should become absolutely PERFECT!

From what i observe the world is completely the opposite and it would be foolish to even expect that it would ever be perfect and so reincarnation does not make sense.

In simple words i put it as trying to wash a white cloth in a muddy pool and thinking that washing it enough times would one day make it perfectly clean.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by guitarplayer
There many forms of what you call indoctrination. All children are indoctrinated in one form or another by their parents. Who are you or I to say that the way one brings up a child is any of yours or my business? Many would say that religious indoctrination is evil and many would say no religious education is evil. Some would say that teaching a child about what they the parents believes is abuse to what standard should that be measured against? It seems like many people want to make it their business of how other people should raise their children. I find it rather hypocritical when population control advocates have two or three of their own children but want to control how many children other folks should have. And I find it hypocritical when social service people want to control how you bring up your child when they themselves are childless.

well, i agree.
Nobody has the right to point fingers as for all they know they are the ones who are indoctrinated.

I am also strictly against anyone deciding how parents should raise their kids.

Everyone is indoctrinated in one way or another. Families teach their children the customs that they grew up with it goes from generation to generation.

reply to post by logical7

do you have any proof? Its not difficult to understand. Its just difficult to accept as the Truth.

What "proof" could you possibly accept from me... You don't agree with the gospels...

You don't agree with any other religion but your own... which thus far I disagree with...

aside from the OT which I also disagree with

I don't see a point...

and who has the authority to speak about what God's idea really is?

Nobody... this is why we debate such issues

let me ask some questions then, if the spirit will continue to exist, will it be always in body form? If no, Why not?
Why was the body form given? Any purpose?

Of course not... Before you came here you were spirit... and when you leave you will be spirit once again...

The body is given to experience... to learn... to understand pain, and deal with the trials of life...

well it doesnt fit, reincarnations would continue endlessly.

that is a horrible assumption based on ignorance...

Let me simplify by making the world contain two people(soul), you and me.
If i wrong you and my account is -7 and you wronged me too but yours is -3 then in the next life, i will get wronged by you -7 and you will get wronged by -3. It did not become zero the wrongs in the world remained -10.

Do you think you can reduce the idea of Karma to a bank account?

For reincarnations to stop it should become zero, that is, the world should become absolutely PERFECT!

From what i observe the world is completely the opposite and it would be foolish to even expect that it would ever be perfect and so reincarnation does not make sense.

Definitely not the way you put it....

In simple words i put it as trying to wash a white cloth in a muddy pool and thinking that washing it enough times would one day make it perfectly clean.

:shk:

Fortunately you haven't got a clue what you're talking about...

reply to post by Akragon

What "proof" could you possibly accept from me... You don't agree with the gospels... You don't agree with any other religion but your own... which thus far I disagree with...

i don't agree with the gospels because they have doubtful authorship.
Qur'an on the other hand is better preserved, give by a later Prophet who is historically proven to exist. So whats the logical thing to do?

You choose the NT over OT because of the same reason. Now if there came a new revealation after it and is available, how can you not even look into it?
Who else will do that for you?
I see that you are open to discussions but believe me that the easiest way to discuss is after you have read Qur'an and found some objections.
Our whole disagreement is based on the scripture we consider as authentic.
I have read the gospels and i find errors in them. I however find a remarkable similarity in the basics.
I hope you will read Qur'an and point out things you want to discuss.

You subscribe to the idea of reincarnation because you don't think hell is real but how can you learn anything new if you filter what you take by an already made up mind?
According to me we should actually seek things that are attacking and challenging our mindset/opinion and not conforming it otherwise we would just remain deluded into a bubble that we ourself reinforce.

reply to post by guitarplayer

Everyone is indoctrinated in one way or another. Families teach their children the customs that they grew up with it goes from generation to generation.

so do you agree that everyone needs to question themselves and observe their customs, beliefs, behaviour and find and erase/undo indoctrinations if any??
(some indoctrinations/traditions could be harmless)

All muslims ARE indoctrinated. So are all Catholics. So are all Baptists. etc etc

But I didn't see you make threads and comments about Catholics and Jews and etc etc

Yes .. I"m sure that the Iranian Government has provided you with all sorts of alleged 'facts'

No , My skepticism has provided + I know English and I study for myself. But you don't know Farsi.



That reply had some good points that you could think about , but you don't seem to like to think out of the box.

You can not even stand together for one week to do something you want.

You are the most separated nation and canalized people on the planet.

The witness is the history of Iranian people who did revolution in 1979 and some protested in 2009.At least people could get united , but American people are most separated people.

Your govt separates people by these secular formulas to guarantee that it is going to last forever no matter what it does.

And yet you insist on secular laws which helps govt do anything it wants.

I really don't understand your point.

You don't seem liking to see that American govt has done big big horrible crimes , and American people have been just witnessing these actions.

The very last action was that your peacekeeper president invaded Libya without permission of parliament.

Secular govt and secular laws keep people separated and that is the key to all corruptions.

reply to post by logical7

i don't agree with the gospels because they have doubtful authorship.
Qur'an on the other hand is better preserved, give by a later Prophet who is historically proven to exist. So whats the logical thing to do?

Perhaps look at the character of the men in question?

Now if there came a new revealation after it and is available, how can you not even look into it?

What would be the point when the world sees what comes from said book?

I see that you are open to discussions but believe me that the easiest way to discuss is after you have read Qur'an and found some objections.
Our whole disagreement is based on the scripture we consider as authentic.
I have read the gospels and i find errors in them. I however find a remarkable similarity in the basics.
I hope you will read Qur'an and point out things you want to discuss.

my personal issue is that you believe a book from 600 years later can be more accurate about a man then books that were written within 100 years of the man in question's life

You subscribe to the idea of reincarnation because you don't think hell is real but how can you learn anything new if you filter what you take by an already made up mind?
According to me we should actually seek things that are attacking and challenging our mindset/opinion and not conforming it otherwise we would just remain deluded into a bubble that we ourself reinforce.

You haven't attacked or challenged my mineset/beliefs thus far... which doesn't conform to any of the usual religious beliefs anyways...

And you didn't answer my question about whether or not a belief in hell makes someone a better person...

I've found it makes a person judgemental to say the least

reply to post by Akragon

Perhaps look at the character of the men in question?

isn't it hypocritical to judge character of one man by believing people who loved him and for the other by people who hate him.
I have read about Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his biography and he is the same as Jesus pbuh just he lived as a prophet for 23years and refused to be killed and defended his followers and faith.
Here are some quotes from historians/thinkers about Muhammad pbuh
www.interfaithforums.com/islam/12551-non-moslem-historians-writers-about-islam-prophet-muhammad.html

Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero
Worship and the Heroic in History'
1840

"The lies (Western slander) which
well-meaning zeal has heaped round
this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful
to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who
cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker
had ordered so."

"I have always held the religion of
Muhammad in high estimation
because of its wonderful vitality. It is
the only religion which
appears to me to possess that
assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which
can make itself appeal to
every age. I have studied him - the
wonderful man and in my
opinion far from being an anti-Christ,
he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a
man like him were to
assume the dictatorship of the modern
world, he would succeed
in solving its problems in a way that
would bring it the much needed peace and happiness

: Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The
Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

Originally posted by mideast
But I didn't see you make threads and comments about Catholics and Jews and etc etc

Then you need to put your glasses on.
Outbreeding the Enemy - does it work?
10 Commandments - doctrine of men
Was Cardinal Bevilacqua Murdered?
Abraham - True prophet of God or something else?
Is God a Deadbeat Dad?
Quick Guide to Modern False Seers

etc etc etc ... that'll keep you going for a while. Oh .. and I've been VERY clear that I disagree with Onanism (Catholic) as well as the Christian, Jewish and Muslim beliefs in the Old Testament of Noahs Ark and Adam and Eve, etc etc.

And yet you insist on secular laws which helps govt do anything it wants.

Better that a secular government runs things than an ABSURD religious dude with archaic ideas from a cult started by a murdering thief from 1400 years ago. Ditto any other religious dude.

reply to post by Akragon

What would be the point when the world sees what comes from said book?

what you believe to be true comes from a long history of hate starting in the medivial times and being fanned by the christian right groups now. Its ofcourse your choice to investigate reality or just believe what you are told.

my personal issue is that you believe a
book from 600 years later can be
more accurate about a man then
books that were written within 100
years of the man in question's life

i understand that. Tell me does it depend on time that a statement is a lie or not? If someone said something about Jesus pbuh 50years after he was gone and another said something after 600years. Does time get included to access which is a lie?
Qur'an does not work that way. It first makes it clear that its a revealation from God by giving proofs for itself and once you are assured of that, then you will believe what it says about all topics.
Qur'an is not a scripture telling history/biography of Jesus pbuh. Its a book of spiritual teachings that mentions many prophets including Jesus pbuh and some stories in their lives as a lesson of spirituality/behaviour etc.

Originally posted by logical7
i don't agree with the gospels because they have doubtful authorship. Qur'an on the other hand is better preserved, give by a later Prophet who is historically proven to exist. So whats the logical thing to do?

The logical thing to do .... take a long hard look at the so-called 'prophet' that you follow and ask yourself what proof that so-called prophet has of his claims to having had heavenly visions. Answer .. none. The logical thing to do ... Ask yourself how his claims are any different than the Christian TV evangelists who claim visions and have no proof. Answer ... none. The logical thing to do ... acknowledge that the first hand accounts of the life of Jesus are most likely much more accurate than fiction that was invented 600 years later by people with an agenda of their own and no idea what happened with Jesus. The logical thing to do .. take a long hard look at that Sharia law you advocate so strongly and ask yourself if it is really a civilized thing for a parent to advocate that their child have their hand cut off if that child is caught stealing (which you have advocated). Answer ... realize that's an extreme punishment for a child and it's an incredibly bad parent who would subject their child to having to endure a life as a cripple because of a small infraction done as a child... and further, logically extrapolate from that Sharia law is not good for civilization or humanity

that'll get you started.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The logical thing to do .... take a long hard look at the so-called 'prophet' that you follow and ask yourself what proof that so-called prophet has of his claims to having had heavenly visions. Answer .. none.

WRONG answer
check my reply and link to Akragon,
here is another historian

S.P. SCOTT
S. P. Scott writes in, History of the
Moorish Empire in Europe, p. 126:

If the object of religion be the
inculcation of morals, the diminution
of evil, the promotion of human
happiness, the expansion of the
human intellect, if the performance of
good works will avail in the great day when mankind shall be summoned to
its final reckoning it is neither
irreverent nor unreasonable to admit
that Muhammad was indeed an
Apostle of God.

try reading real and authentic scholars and historians FF.
I can understand your stand about Islam and Muhammad pbuh and you are free to believe whatever you want but no matter how much filth the right wing christians spill on my religion and prophet people who honestly investigate find the truth and i do know your opinion about these people but again thats just you and your super confident style

The
logical thing to do ... acknowledge that
the first hand accounts of the life of Jesus are most likely much more
accurate than fiction that was invented
600 years later by people with an
agenda of their own and no idea what
happened with Jesus.

i was born in the age of a later prophet, Prophet Muhammad pbuh and its logical that i follow him, i am taught to acknowledge and respect all previous ones including Jesus pbuh.
Forget about muslims FF, not even many christians including priests believe the creed and theology that is tried to be interpreted from the gospels. Maybe you saw a recent thread on it questioning the logic of the son dying for sins, people will more easily and rationally believe Jesus pbuh as a messenger who taught good things.
The belief you have is a classic example of indoctrination but you cannot see it, i hope you do one day.
My belief is simple, i believe there is a God and messengers come to guide people.
Regarding reality of Jesus pbuh i would rather believe an independent account of him which escaped the church censorship than the gospels that were controlled and edited by the church, you are free to do it but i hope you realise the reality that you are trusting the church on it and not Jesus pbuh, neither his disciples(they were not alive to object when it was cannonised and edited)

reply to post by FlyersFan

The logical thing to do .. take a long hard look at that Sharia law you advocate so strongly and ask yourself if it is really a civilized thing for a parent to advocate that their child have their hand cut off if that child is caught stealing (which you have advocated). Answer ... realize that's an extreme punishment for a child and it's an incredibly bad parent who would subject their child to having to endure a life as a cripple because of a small infraction done as a child... and further, logically extrapolate from that Sharia law is not good for civilization or humanity that'll get you started.

for you Sharia only means stoning the adulterers and chopping hands of a tiny cute bread stealing kid! Almost makes me doubt that you frequent a lot of anti-islamic sites.

Sharia is a system not a few barberic laws imposed by force.
Sharia begins with laying foundation of good virtues in the society. Then making sure that the basic needs of every citizen are provided. Islam also has a system of self regulation and does not need cctv cameras to make people behave(i don't steal because i know its wrong and i have to face my Creator one day)
a person has to escape all these good teachings and welfare system to go and steal and even then losing a hand is a strong deterrent to discourage. If he still steals then he kind of deserves the punishment.
Its the same as, if punishment for treason is death and a man still does it then he is aware that he will be killed.

Sharia calls for economic justice and eradication of poverty, it supports free market and no taxes on trading, no monopolies and ties between governments and corporations.
What the Federal Reserve does is haram under Sharia, you are being ripped off each day of your wealth as inflation eats it away slowly.
Sharia is God's law and God knows the tricks greedy humans can play and so he made those things haram/forbidden.
Your dear secular system allows it all as it just cares about inviduality and then you have families who stuggle to survive even when both parents are working.
Whenever you zealously support secular economic laws and banking, you are helping to make the elite rich and the common people suffer. An ideological slavery supporting to keep the masters in positions of power.

reply to post by logical7

I was going to leave this thread alone so you would be relieved of my 'pressure' and 'dissention' for a while. But then I read this:

Does time get included to access which is a lie?

YES, IT DOES.

Qur'an does not work that way. It first makes it clear that its a revealation from God by giving proofs for itself and once you are assured of that, then you will believe what it says about all topics.

IT WAS NOT WRITTEN DOWN BY YOUR PROPHET, and it was not any more the 'revelation from God' than any televangelist or priest or soothsayer or seer or posing 'Catholic' channeler, or ANYONE else.

Qur'an is not a scripture telling history/biography of Jesus pbuh. Its a book of spiritual teachings that mentions many prophets including Jesus pbuh and some stories in their lives as a lesson of spirituality/behaviour etc.

What YOU don't understand is that NONE of the previous 'prophets' - the 'similar to Jesus' teachers; not Krishna, nor Buddha, nor Mithra, nor ANYONE ELSE revered as "telling the truth" WAGED WAR ON ANYONE ELSE.

The downfall of Muhammed is that he was a murderer, and commanded an army to conquer other lands by force. THAT IS NOT GOD, nor is it God's message.

You need to just deal with this, logical7. Jesus did not promote war and conquest. Muhammed did.
HUGE DIFFERENCE.

reply to post by wildtimes

Does time get included to access which is a lie?

YES, IT DOES.

No it does not.
If two statements are made, one 50yrs later and one 600yrs later there is no certainty that the statement closer to the event is the truth. Its just logic, the ability of a person to lie does not change depending on the temporal gap from the event.
Why are you even interested in this? And how would you prove this simple logic wrong, that anyone can lie/alter a text.
A good example is 9/11, just after the event government said that osama bin laden did it. Years later its coming to light that it was an inside job, a false flag!

IT WAS NOT WRITTEN DOWN BY YOUR
PROPHET, and it was not any more the
'revelation from God' than..

TRUE! he did not write it, he was illiterate. He memorised it and checked the memorisation of his companions before he died.
Is it a revelation from God or not can be only discussed with someone who has read the Qur'an.

What YOU don't understand is that
NONE of the previous 'prophets' - the
'similar to Jesus' teachers; not Krishna,
nor Buddha, nor Mithra, nor ANYONE
ELSE revered as "telling the truth"
WAGED WAR ON ANYONE ELSE. The downfall of Muhammed is that he
was a murderer, and commanded an
army to conquer other lands by force.
THAT IS NOT GOD, nor is it God's
message.

Maybe you don't know David pbuh and Goliath then! Or King Solomon pbuh and his armies.
Muhammad pbuh was a defender, the last i checked self-defence is a valid reason to fight.
I'l rather believe Karen Armstrong, you seem hell bent to attack my faith and provoke me, my prophet taught me to tolerate and have patience. I have already given in to my ego and attacked you before but no more and thanks for making me a better person by exposing my weakness to me.

You need to just deal with this,
logical7. Jesus did not promote war
and conquest. Muhammed did.
HUGE DIFFERENCE.

lets ask Christians about the 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh and how peaceful or secular he would be!!
Aggression is wrong but fighting back oppression is a duty of every upright person and shying away from that due to fear is cowardice. It does not take religion to know that, just common sense and my religion is the religion of common sense