Ken Ham’s Creation “Museum” in Financial Trouble

reply to post by JayinAR


Please read my posts before you reply by saying they are insulting. I said this:

Perhaps if he located it in a place like Northern Arkansas/Southern Missouri? At least we have the big world Bible colleges and schools in this area. Students would supply SOME new traffic, if only for the one shot "You gotta see it to believe someone built it" side show aspect.

......... and it's a simple fact, that a good number of the Bible Colleges and Seminaries are centered in and around the Ozarks from 1-44 on into Northern Arkansas. Although Arkansas is one of the top states in America for religion in their own right, so it would pretty well fit there too now that I think about it. It's not insulting to be called Religious to the vast majority of people. I'm a bit confused by that.

According to a new Gallup poll, Arkansas is comprised of 52 percent "very religious Americans," ranking the Natural State fifth-highest in the United States.

The poll classifies "very religious Americans" as those who said religion is an important part of their daily life and that they attend religious services every week or almost every week.

(Source)

We're a religious nation, what can I say? Even this guy in Kentucky has a right to his belief of it, if it's hurting no one else ....and people choosing to pay to see it is between him and them if they feel ripped off, I'd say.

^Appeal to popularity is a fallacy, though.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

*Previous Post*
These scammers deserve to be bankrupt. They know full well they are just exploiting religious fundies who are gullible and will believe anything that suggests their 100% literal view of the bible.

^^^ That could be part of what I keyed on to see it as just a hair toward the religious bash side of the marker. I mean, I talk often about Jihadi and Islamic extremists...but for a very long time now, I've also been very careful that "Radical" or "Extremist" is part of it. Why? If I don't clarify...mistakes like this happen ..and people make a very natural connection that your definition and their definition of fundamentalist are fundamentally different.

A fundamentalist is somebody who has an extremely strict and literal interpretation of their doctrine. They don't necessarily have to be extremists. That's why I say that the owners were exploiting religious fundies who are gullible. And yeah, if you actually believe dinosaurs and man walked together there is no other appropriate description. I'm trying to defend rationality, not attack religion.

Well, I don't like liars and hate those who hide within religion to peddle it as well. People claiming scumbag killers get 72 virgins ..for instance.. are just as despicable as Christian sects who claim their way is the ONLY way and anyone else is going to hell. Even fellow Christians. Funny thing tho..... People have the right to worship a kumquat in this nation, if that floats their boat. They can even make a museum if they wish. "Museum of the Mighty Kumquat from Seed to Savior". Religious freedom and all.... Unless I belong to their Faith and know their beliefs...I have no right to call their BELIEF SYSTEM ONE OF LIES and deception, do I?

I wasn't calling their belief system one of lies and deception. I'm referring to the idea of man and dinosaur walking the earth together and the 6000 year old earth. These are concepts promoted by this museum, none of which referenced in the bible, and both are demonstrably wrong. Yes, they have every right to do it, but people are becoming smarter and realizing it's BS, which is why they are shutting down. Nothing makes me happier than children breaking the cycle of indoctrination.

Unless you own a time machine ..... The claim they are lying is as invalid as saying science is lying with a 4 billion year old age of Earth or the Bible itself is lying with 3,000 years or 6,000 years from Creation (I've heard Believers say both with no apparent sense of problem to it)

I didn't say the religion was based on lies! I said that the museum owners were spreading lies with the 6000 year old earth thing and targeting gullible people. Young earth was debunked by science over 100 years ago. Have you ever seen the claims creationists have posted on here? They never come to talk about their religion, and spread peace. They attack evolution, attack modern science, and spread lies. I'm not talking about ALL creationists, just the fundamentalist minority of them, primarily the ones that post in this section and support YEC and similarly ridiculous concepts.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Ridicule is a debating tactic now? I hope people stop asking where the very clear sense of dislike bordering on hate comes from regarding religion. We can't even have a reasonable debate about it without getting to throwing barbs like that.

Oh, dear. Do you mean my saying that your post was confused? That wasn't a barb; I thought I was stating the obvious! Look at what you wrote:

However, nor can Evolution be proven that way. Oh, Evolution is real alright...

That looks quite confused to me. If evolution is real, there is no need to prove it. Only propositions and hypotheses require proof. Facts are facts.

I offer my apologies for any offence caused. Now, on with our conversation.

My personal belief is that it's been a combination of intelligent design coupled with life's adaptation to itself, each other and the changing world over these billions of years. No one can know though and absolutely not well enough to make it a point to ridicule each other over though.

I am not sure what you mean by 'life's adaptation to itself', but I get the idea that you accept that life on Earth has evolved over time. You believe God created the first life-forms, and has been at work modifying and elaborating them to suit a changing environment ever since – helping natural selection along, so to speak.

It would be easy to show why this is most unlikely, but let's not go there. I would rather draw your attention to something I pointed out before: that this constant intervention by an external power is unnecessary. As has now been observed a great many times, with many different life-forms and simulations under a variety of conditions, natural selection needs no help to do its work. There is no need to bring God into the picture unless you specifically wish to put Him there. It seems clear, therefore, that you do wish it. You are uncomfortable with the idea of a Godless universe and autonomous evolution, and propose a divine creator to settle the existential nausea these thoughts evoke in you.

This is all quite natural and understandable; many religious people do the same. They know too much to dismiss the theory of evolution by natural selection out of hand, so they seek to broker a compromise between it and God. As you correctly point out, no-one can prove such beliefs right or wrong. They are, however, unmistakably beliefs. Your approach to the question of how life on Earth came to exist in so many different forms is faith-based; in conceptual if not political terms, you are a creationist.

That is all I wished to make clear to you. Obviously, it has consequences; but we can discuss those another time.

reply to post by Astyanax


My reference to life adapting to itself was the non-stop progression of each fish getting eaten by a bigger fish and gradually adapting so they don't get eaten so often. Situation based evolution, as one way of putting it. Figuratively to all life and literally to the poor fish of the world.


Now you assume so much in seemingly making final assumptions about my own personal Faith. Virtually none of them were correct. Now, of course you kept them general, so maybe some related to me and maybe some didn't. For the sake of debate and general setting the record straight on a major issue of the day though, let me clarify.

First, we're a small and rather inconsequential life form in the Universe. We're in no special spot in relation to anything else and not only are we not special in size .... we're puny. This is only a minute and a half long, but it's important to the point.



Now everything in our world is in nice scale to everything as we've come to know it. It's all we know. Our world is, in turn, in proper dimension to Sol. Our sun. Here's where it gets interesting. Those aren't single stars for the sizes in the video. Just the examples of many, except for the record holder. No one has yet brought up what PLANETS may be around those almost absurdly super-sized stars (by our perceptions of what is around us). What if life is similarly proportional to THEIR reality in THAT scale of things.


Who knows just what "God" may have been or is in terms of what the Organized religions all take their roots from different forms of. To be specific, I DO think Allah, God and the other variations are different forms of the same thing. Whatever that actually is.

I'm realistic enough to say I don't even know what I don't know about what lay beyond the edges of our Solar System because no one does. I'm simply keeping an open mind while looking at different beliefs. Not to convert. I'm very comfortable in my Faith. Just to learn about the specifics of others. It's a real BIG place to say God isn't real in some form.


By the way, my faith isn't monotheistic at all. I'm Wiccan. I have been for just over 20 years now. I debate this topic on what I see as the merits of the points, not personal investment in my Faith rising or falling on the outcome. Even if something ever changes to tip the balance of the debate in a major way, it doesn't impact me personally in my own spiritual life.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Thank you for your clarification. I did not assume you were a Christian; most Jews and Muslims, too, believe in a divine Creator; pagan belief doubtless varies depending on which mythological framework a given pagan conforms to. Judging by what you wrote, you believe in some kind of divine principle manifest in matter and energy. That is a very easy God for a scientist to believe in, by the way; it is also a God without miraculous powers, bound by the laws of nature and in no way moral.

If you believe in that kind of divinity, then even the idea of a separate Creator is strictly unnecessary. The idea of one that continually meddles in its own creation is even more so, or rather it is conceptually equivalent to the unplanned, unwilled activity of natural selection. But whatever your concept of the divine, a belief in the conscious direction of evolution by a Creator is creationism.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Did you edit your post?
If I read it wrong, I apologize.

At any rate, where does Kentucky rank on that list?
I bet it is in the top ten as well.

To say that the museum would do better in Arkansas due to a higher concentration of religiosity seems disingenuous. Religious Universities? Like College of the Ozarks?
I have two alum as family members. Neither are fundies and both would laugh at this "museum".

Also, I live in THE Northern Arkansas University town (that should tell ya exactly where I am) and most people I know around here are quite rational.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

To say that the museum would do better in Arkansas due to a higher concentration of religiosity seems disingenuous. Religious Universities? Like College of the Ozarks?
I have two alum as family members. Neither are fundies and both would laugh at this "museum".

Oh.. Yeah. Your knowledge of where I live is staggering. Really.

College of the Ozarks? Oh, you forgot a few points.

While not strictly a Religious school, Religious value and general adherence to Faith in a overall sense is ...helpful, to say the least at Drury University. Their Ministry on Campus also serves the students of OTC and MSU.

The World Headquarters for the 65 million global followers of the Assemblies of God is located in Springfield. and of course, what would the world headquarters be without their central Bible College to go with it?

Central Bible College (Assemblies of God)

Not to be outdone or outshone, in this case, they aren't alone. The Baptists also figured this would be a dandy place to locate one of their national Bible Colleges.

Baptist Bible College

and last but not least, the University whose very motto is "“Boldly Christian, Unquestionably Academic.”, there is Evangel University. This, of course, isn't counting Missouri State University which is secular of course, but also impossible to miss where you're at in the nation too. This isn't all our claims to religious fame within a 40 mile radius or so...but the major highlights.

When I've described this area as the buckle of the Bible Belt? I've meant that literally. It is and in multiple ways. All of the above is about 50 miles from the Arkansas border of course, and the 'Spirit' extends well into Northern Arkansas...for future reference of what this area is actually like. As someone entirely neutral at worst and lean toward identifying with generally for Christianity? I love the people here. For folks not so inclined? It's not the best area I suppose.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Dude, what's with all of the stuff?
I did not claim an intimate knowledge of Missouri.
In fact, other than mentioning College of the Ozarks, I never even mentioned Missouri.

You seem grumpy.

The one thing I can say about ARKANSAS in this regard is that Siloam Springs is in the record books as having more churches than any other town of its size in America.

I couldn't care less about Southern Missouri, to be honest with ya.

reply to post by JayinAR


Well, I made a passing comment about how his museum may have worked better in this area because it's a very religious area with a generally fundamentalist base of population. At least the religious students would want to see it once. Somehow, it was taken as an issue of debate that such a population DOES form the base of Southern Missouri and Northern Arkansas.

Casual comment made in passing....didn't have to become a debate. Nit pick the crap out of what people say though and occasionally? Someone will back their side point as you make it a primary one. No hard feelings....just didn't feel misrepresenting what I'd clearly stated about the factual demographics of the Ozarks needed to sit like that.

I have always been interested in what exactly they teach in those schools. I don't think it is "creation science", but I could be wrong.
My sister, for instance, holds a view similar to your own.

In any event, I am actually quite happy to hear this thing may shut down. Deliberately misinterpreting data is not $omething people should even allow to happen in school, IMO. Whether they are state funded, private, or any other...it is unacceptable. Fraud, in fact.

Originally posted by JayinAR
I have always been interested in what exactly they teach in those schools. I don't think it is "creation science", but I could be wrong.
My sister, for instance, holds a view similar to your own.

In any event, I am actually quite happy to hear this thing may shut down. Deliberately misinterpreting data is not $omething people should even allow to happen in school, IMO. Whether they are state funded, private, or any other...it is unacceptable. Fraud, in fact.

Agreed. Faith is not science, and there is no science to back intelligent design or creationism. If it is taught in school, it should be taught strictly as faith, since that's what it is. I take big issue with all these frauds out there that claim there is science behind that belief. There is not.

I'm delighted to say that Ham's "Ark Encounter" project at what he quaintly thinks of as the 'museum' is now effectively DOA, after Kentucky's tourism board pulled the tax breaks that he was using to fund the thing. The screaming noise you can all hear is Ham's brain exploding in his skull as he flips out.

As predicted, the only thing that Ham can definitively say was created his junk bond series that crashed and burned.
www.slate.com...

Well deserved by those who invested. I'm sure that Ham and his "scientists" appropriated their share of the bond series revenue well before anyone was on to their tail.

Ham and his "Creationist" movement have fraud written all over it.

Maybe I'll send him a T shirt for Christmas.

a reply to: Phantom423

Good stuff. People should NOT get tax breaks for spreading lies. It's one thing to have a church or place of worship. It's a completely different thing to build an entire museum with fake exhibits and charge near $40 a person to get into it. If religious recruitment is that important to you then teach the positives of your faith instead of attacking evolution and science with a complete insult to intelligence that goes against anything Jesus taught.

But we all know that Ken Ham's goal is not recruitment or spreading faith. He is a business man and he's smart. He knows that he's telling lies, but he also knows that there is a certain demographic that will buy into it hook line and sinker with no scrutiny and pay whatever he asks. He is taking advantage of young innocent brainwashed kids as well as adults that don't know any better. It's completely despicable. He only sees dollar signs. Until the Christian community realizes this, no progress will be made. It's like Kent Hovind making up all kinds of lies and claiming it's science. Just another snake oil salesman.

originally posted by: Barcs

Agreed. Faith is not science, and there is no science to back intelligent design or creationism. If it is taught in school, it should be taught strictly as faith, since that's what it is. I take big issue with all these frauds out there that claim there is science behind that belief. There is not.

Agreed. Faith is not science, and there is no science to back evolution or the big bang. If it is taught in school, it should be taught strictly as faith, since that's what it is. I take big issue with all these frauds out there that claim there is science behind that belief. There is not.

Evolution is a faith and Barcs

Seriously are you denying you hate Christianity, you must be kidding, delusional to a degree.
You cant keep out of the religious content stuff. Its a crusade you are on, a religious (evolution) crusade.


For my money people who believe in evolution are so desperate to deny anything but atheism they will accept any old fairy tale.

I await bated breath your calm and balanced reply...yeah right

originally posted by: borntowatch
Agreed. Faith is not science, and there is no science to back evolution or the big bang. If it is taught in school, it should be taught strictly as faith, since that's what it is. I take big issue with all these frauds out there that claim there is science behind that belief. There is not.

To claim there isn't evidence for evolution and the BB is the height of dishonesty, and is the very reason why nobody takes creationists seriously. It'd be funny if it wasn't for the fact that they're able to procreate.

For my money people who believe in evolution are so desperate to deny anything but atheism they will accept any old fairy tale.

Your superstitions are 100% irrelevant to science and the evidence gathered. But the fact that it threatens you so much speaks volumes as to the true strength of your convictions.

And fairy tales are the ones with talking snakes, unicorns and magic Jews.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: borntowatch
Agreed. Faith is not science, and there is no science to back evolution or the big bang. If it is taught in school, it should be taught strictly as faith, since that's what it is. I take big issue with all these frauds out there that claim there is science behind that belief. There is not.

To claim there isn't evidence for evolution and the BB is the height of dishonesty, and is the very reason why nobody takes creationists seriously. It'd be funny if it wasn't for the fact that they're able to procreate.

For my money people who believe in evolution are so desperate to deny anything but atheism they will accept any old fairy tale.

Your superstitions are 100% irrelevant to science and the evidence gathered. But the fact that it threatens you so much speaks volumes as to the true strength of your convictions.

And fairy tales are the ones with talking snakes, unicorns and magic Jews.

Well I have only ever asked for evidence, scientific evidence and have never been given anything.
Now remember science is repeatable observable and testable, please prove away

Talk is very cheap around here

a reply to: borntowatch

We have already run this rodeo to death. Why even bother at this point? We post peer reviewed scientific data. You deny it, with no explanation, or claim it doesn't count. This is where your argument begins and ends. There is nothing left to say until you present an argument against the evidence.

I don't have anything against Christianity, I just choose not to place my faith there. Christianity isn't the problem, it's fundamentalism that leads to irrational denial and attack of scientific fields on a public forum.

The thing is, he wasn't happy with just a museum and live action reinactments of Christ.

The guy has serious delusions of grandeur.

Creation Museum's $73m Noah's Ark park to begin construction in Kentucky: www.theguardian.com...

And I don't have any issues with religion, until they cross over into politics.

BTW -- your OP article seems to be from 2013.

NOTE: just realized this thread originated in 2013.

Try this one: Non-Christians Need Not Apply

www.slate.com... l

I'm having trouble getting the link to work. It's a Slate article.