Judaism, Still Waiting For A Messiah ?

reply to post by jmdewey60

That's pretty much the book I was working from. Which reminds me that I really should take a break from posting and at least finish reading it. I'm not even a third of the way through it yet.

reply to post by Deetermined

John 8:56-58

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

which is your offering in support of your earlier claim,

Jesus said that his Father was the same God that Abraham followed.

The verse related to those verses that you quoted is Romans 4:18,

Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Obviously this is by Paul, not the writer of John, but I have to see the connection. To start with, you see the same Greek word, genesthai (which is the Aorist infinitive form of the verb, to generate or to become), in both verses.
In the verse in Romans, it is used to describe the process of Abraham becoming a father through his wife.
In John it is describing something about Abraham where the meaning has to be taken from verse 56 where it describes him as a father, and how he rejoiced, which would be the birth of Isaac. So when you see genesthai in verse 58, you should understand it as meaning before he became a father, rather than before Abraham existed.
Jesus is here personifying the seed of Abraham as a string of descendents, starting with Isaac and ending with himself, so that Abraham seeing Isaac being born, metaphorically, was seeing Jesus being born.
The purpose of all of this comes from verse 39, where he questions their really being sons of Abraham since they were not acting like he did. Jesus is saying that he is the true son of Abraham, but in a serious way, where the very purpose of Abraham having children was seen in what he was doing right then, in their sight and hearing.

reply to post by Deetermined

Is it not enough to think of Jerusalem as belonging to God/Jesus who will cut two thirds of it's people off and only save one third of them? That third will acknowledge and accept Jesus.

You seem to be using as the main biblical support of this theory's structure, Zechariah 13:7-9.
If you look at the language that it is using, and where it is taken from in older prophecies, then you can figure out what it is talking about, which is Israel being cleansed of the "defilement" of marrying with people of other nations, with the remedy of killing anyone not of the proper blood.

reply to post by Deetermined


So many people have no understanding of the significance of Jerusalem and the Temple mount .Also they bunch all Jews into one neat package and that is so far from the truth . Yes Jesus said the Pharisees of that time were not Jews and there are Edomites who have tried to supplant the real Jews . Now the Ashkenazi Zionist Jews are behind the Global power grab and the real Jews are paying the price .
The fact is that God put the Jews back in Israel because that is where the endtimes will play out .

reply to post by SimonPeter

The fact is that God put the Jews back in Israel because that is where the endtimes will play out .

Those are Old Testament prophecies that have already "played themselves out".
There is no mythical kingdom of Israel, just a regime of criminal thugs in Palestine calling themselves by that name.
The significance of Mount Zion is that it was the last holdout against the Israelites in consolidating their conquest of the land, according to the story as recorded in the OT. It was named after one of the old names for Mount Hermon Which marked the boundary given by Moses, and was called the mountain of Israel in Joshua.

reply to post by SimonPeter

Also they bunch all Jews into one neat package and that is so far from the truth . Yes Jesus said the Pharisees of that time were not Jews and there are Edomites who have tried to supplant the real Jews .

Let's break it down then:

Samaritans, not Jews: As a distinct identifiable group have lived uninterruptedly in the land since the 600s BC. They have the Torah. Evidently, all they lack is PR.

Karaite Jews, primarily from Arab states(kicked out of Iraq and Egypt), they have the whole Canonical Jewish Bible. They do not hold the Talmud as valid. Yet:

However, as of 2013, there has been a resurgence in the questioning of the Jewish identity of Karaite's by Israel’s chief rabbinate. According to the rabbinate's spokesman, “Israel is a Jewish state and Jews have superior rights. But the Karaites are not Jewish.”
Halakhic status

You mention Edomites, who were forced at sword point by one of the Hasmonean Messiahs to be circumcised and become Jews. This they did, and have been Jewish ever since. That's 900 years of being Jewish longer than the European Ashkenazis who converted in the 800s AD.

And all the descendants of the 1st Century Judeans who converted to Christianity or Islam. Did they somehow lose their descent from Judah by converting?

Some how things got seriously messed up, that Europeans who had zero heritage to the land are given ownership and ruler status above the actual blood relatives of people who never even left the land. And you presume to call that "God's doing"? Propaganda is my word for that.

reply to post by pthena


There are real Jews in Israel . Ezekiel for told Israel being rein habited by the Jews . As Paul said all in Israel is not Israel . As for the Edomites conversion to Judaism I can only say God didn't recognize it . So many people have converted but the High Rabbinical Court disallowed those . Still God said that he still has his remnant of Jews in Israel who have not bent their knees to Baal . Jesus Christ will come back to MT Olives and the Temple must be rebuilt and the Abomination of Desolation will happen . All these things say Israel must be nation during the end times .

reply to post by jmdewey60


You have a very strange interpretation of the bible . And in order to perpetuate it you disallow books of the bible . You are saying that the False prophet or son of perdition has already come and gone .The Mark of the Beast has already been introduced. Or do you throw out those parts of the bible also .

If you are scared say your scared . Are you scared that you might have to make a decision for the Lord or take the mark ? The Pre Tribulation Rapture believers do so because they can not contemplate having to go through the Tribulation . They also disallow or avoid scripture that expressly states they will see the Son of Perdition sit in the Temple . And also the words of Jesus stating the same thing . So what is your motive for seeking to put a very stressing thing as the Tribulation in the past ?

reply to post by SimonPeter

Now I'm going to have to re-read the whole thread to see if anybody has succeeded in refuting the OPs thesis that the 70 weeks are over as of 1st Century. I don't recall that it has been refuted.

Edomites conversion to Judaism I can only say God didn't recognize it .

Which "God" are you talking about? And are you a prophet for that particular "God"?
The god of Moses allowed that after 3 generations any Edomite who accepts the Sinai covenant is considered part of the congregation of Israel.

Methinks that whoever "rightly divided" the Bible for you had ulterior motives. Hence your conclusion that Israel must be a state. Weird how that's what even the first generation of Atheist European Zionist "Jews" wanted you to believe when Darby did his "rightly dividing".

the High Rabbinical Court disallowed those

So, is your g.d the g.d of the Talmud who takes his orders from Rabbinical Courts?

Still God said that he still has his remnant of Jews in Israel who have not bent their knees to Baal .

If you are referring to Apostle Paul's God, then those would be Christians. The descendants of 1st Century Judean Christians who kept their Christianity are called Palestinians by the so-called Jewish State of Israel. Do you support the driving out of Palestinians from Palestine?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

You seem to be using as the main biblical support of this theory's structure, Zechariah 13:7-9.
If you look at the language that it is using, and where it is taken from in older prophecies, then you can figure out what it is talking about, which is Israel being cleansed of the "defilement" of marrying with people of other nations, with the remedy of killing anyone not of the proper blood.

Here, Dewey, it looks like you need some serious bible study help tools. Here is the interpretation for Zechariah 13.

www.biblestudytools.com...

reply to post by pthena

Now I'm going to have to re-read the whole thread to see if anybody has succeeded in refuting the OPs thesis that the 70 weeks are over as of 1st Century. I don't recall that it has been refuted.

That's because there is a true argument for both sides.

However, you have to compare Daniel to Revelation to realize that it's all going to play itself out again, only this time someone will stand in the temple and declare themselves God right here on earth and force people to worship him or risk being killed.

It's no different than Jesus giving a twofold message in Matthew 24 with Jesus warning of events about to happen (the fall of the second temple) compared to events that will play out again in the future, only with a different and permanent ending when Jesus mentions the heavens and the earth passing away.

History repeats itself.

reply to post by pthena


You can ask God that when you see him. And you will ! We are about to see some prophecy come true that has been prophesied in the bible and it will be devastating to this world .

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by mideast

David and Solomon pbut were prophets , they were no kings. David pbuh didn't commit adultery.

Why do these people introduce them as kings while they were prophets ?

According to the Hebrew fables the prophet Samuel anointed David as Messiah.

David married Saul's daughter, fled, became a brigand/mobster, demanding goods and services from villages and farmsteads "for protection", killed farmers who refused, and took their wives for himself.

You don't see any adultery in those stories?

edit on 26-6-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

The story of David who slept with one of his commander's wives.

samuel 11:2-27 says that he slept with one of his commander's wives and then he was killed in a dangerous battle.

Originally posted by Phoenix267
reply to post by mideast

 

No, in Islam David and I believe Solomon are consider kings. Here's this verse I'll source.

By the will of God they defeated them, and David killed Goliath, and God gave him kingship and wisdom, and taught him whatsoever He pleased. If God did not make men deter one another this earth would indeed be depraved. But gracious is God to the people of the world. —Qur'an, Sura 2 (Al-Baqara), ayat 251

In Islam I think it's expressed differently than the long winded stories you'll read in the bible that would go into detail.

He killed one the commander of enemy force and god granted him power.

I didn't ignore that these prophets were powerful.

But they were followers of their religion before they were powerful.

Religion came first and they acted according religion.

There are many powerful people who we call them kings.

But these kings were truthful and modest and trustworthy people.They were not some ordinary kings who like other kings who are ruling on the planet.

They had more valuable medals on their chest such as trustworthiness and prophecy from god.

There are many kings who come and go in different countries these days. But you can not compare them to these people.

reply to post by SimonPeter

So what is your motive for seeking to put a very stressing thing as the Tribulation in the past ?

My "motive" would be to be a Christian, rather than someone (dazzled by the cults) who rejects normal Christianity that says that the Christ event was the fulfilment of the Old Testament prophecies (as stated by Jesus himself in the Gospel).

You are saying that the False prophet or son of perdition has already come and gone

The "son of perdition" is one term used in some translations to describe Judas in John 17:12. So that is a historic event.
The term also shows up in the pseudo-Paul book, 2 Thessalonians, for some reason, and can safely be ignored as not being authoritative.
You seem to be referring to Revelation 17:8&11, by giving alternative titles for the same character. You may be conflating the Revelation character with the 2 Thessalonians character to make your antichrist. For reasons already stated, I will refrain from following that practice.
To concentrate on the beast character in Revelation, the beasts represent the two primeval forces of Chaos on earth, the sea and the land, with the dragon representing a universal power of chaos that effects the heavens.
John is moving the "end times" into the present, where those forces that are behind what is corrupting those who should be saved, are being now destroyed, indicating that siding with those things that are passing away will only result in the passing away of those who have taken what appears as the easy course.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by mideast

 

IMO you are agent of Zionism which claims to be owners of the land and resources.

And whenever I criticize Zionism , all of a sudden , you grow up and defend their bloodshed.

The problem with you is that you ask Jews to reconsider looking at Christianity , but you don't reconsider about Islam.

Because it is not according your benefits.

Your interests tell you that you should fight Muslims because they own the biggest resources on the planet.

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter you or I think. I don't need to defend anything.

The Bible says that the surrounding nations of Israel are going to gang up on them, that God is going to step in to protect a third of them, and then give them the land that he promised.

It's just unfortunate that it's the Muslims who are going to be leading the charge against Israel.

It has nothing to do with what benefits me.

It is written.

You mean that god granted these people the right to travel from their lands and then come back and drive all the people out and claim themselves as one country ? Establishing country by bribing and threatening other countries ? rejecting border , massacring and expelling people from their homeland ? having plan to get Nile till Euphrates ? Threatening neighbors and violating their aerospace ? Using white Phosphor bomb on civilians ?

And then god predicts that they will not be accepted by their neighbors ?

Excuse me , what kind of god is that allows these people do anything ?

I am enemy of this god.

reply to post by Deetermined

Here, Dewey, it looks like you need some serious bible study help tools. Here is the interpretation for Zechariah 13.

That is an attempt at retrofitting an interpretation onto an Old Testament prophecy to make it somehow predicting things that happened in the Gospels.
What happened was Jesus taking a well known piece of scripture to describe a current situation.
The original intent of the prophecy would have had nothing to do with what happened to the disciples of a particular future rabbi, but is more likely describing the destruction of the Persian Empire (which Judea was a client state of) by the Greeks, and making it as if The Lord was of course in charge of world events, and was making the Greeks do it for some bigger purpose, like to make the Jews try harder to find themselves deserving of The Lord's ultimate plan being implemented.

reply to post by jmdewey60

My "motive" would be to be a Christian, rather than someone (dazzled by the cults) who rejects normal Christianity that says that the Christ event was the fulfilment of the Old Testament prophecies (as stated by Jesus himself in the Gospel).

Sorry, but Seventh Day Adventists aren't considered the norm as it relates to Christianity.

At least I've seen a couple of them here on ATS who appear to really know their Bible, unfortunately, you're not one of them.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . someone will stand in the temple and declare themselves God right here on earth and force people to worship him or risk being killed.

You seem to be following the same cult-taught practice that SimonPeter engages in, which is conflating the two characters from Revelation and 2 Thessalonians using the word, perdition, to link them together. One is destined to go into perdition, and the other is the child of perdition. The cult founder takes this as sufficient evidence to say that they must be the same person, and then christened him with the epitaph, The Antichrist.
Obviously, based on my earlier comments, I think this is a tragic mistake for anyone to choose to walk down this path blazed by someone I would label the son of perdition, in the sense of Jesus describing Judas.

reply to post by Deetermined

At least I've seen a couple of them here on ATS who appear to really know their Bible . . .

Those people were not real Adventists.
They were people who had picked up on some offshoot of Adventism but they were not actual members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Memorizing cult propaganda is not the same thing as knowing the Bible.

Sorry, but Seventh Day Adventists aren't considered the norm as it relates to Christianity.

A lot more normal than dispensationalism which is antichristian, making Christianity the red-headed stepbrother to the Jews, creating what is, as far as I am concerned, outright idolatry.