A Rant

I've noticed how many posters usually single out Islam in general and call it "barbaric", or "stone age" or "uncivilized". I've seen a few Muslim posters try to refute their arguments with some success, however, these posters keep coming back.

I've always wondered what I could do to satisfy this hatred, how to disprove their argument, or get them to stop. They say
"All Muslims are extremists. Why aren't "Moderates" taking action against extremists?"
"If Islam is so civilized, why do these crimes occur?"
"I want a Muslim to tell me their opinion on this."

23.4% of the world consists Muslim. That is 1.6 billion of the world's population. I haven't counted the number of "extremist" or "Islamic" crimes carried out by Muslims, but overall, that number is a tiny fraction of the amount of Muslims in the world.
Now, I've seen the "All Muslims are extremists. Why aren't "Moderates" taking action against extremists?" argument dozens of times. Let me ask you people something. You've seen how the US has committed war crimes against Iraq or attacked Pakistan and Afghanistan with drones? What are YOU doing? How are YOU stopping them? We've seen how Westboro church pickets outside funerals or slanders veterans. What are YOU doing? How are YOU stopping the crimes which go on every day?
How does one counter the acts of the extremists? Powerful rich ones with contacts among the criminal underworld?

Honestly, I can't do much. I'm just an ordinary guy, with ordinary problems just like you. Almost all Muslims are like me. We don't want a world conquest. We don't want to convert everyone. At the end of the day, we want some shelter, electricity, comfort and some food. Just like all of you.

You speak of standing for love and tolerance, yet spread hatred and lies. At the end of the day, who is the boogeyman? The one who spends his day spreading hatred and slandering 1 billion people? Or the Muslims?

reply to post by RimDaas


Brace yourself Rim, there will be those that respond in the thread that will make you prove that they are not.

I agree with you OP! Islam is a very large and diverse religion. You can't just say why don't the moderate Muslims try to reach out to the extremist. It's easier said than done. Because with Islam having various different opinions and views many Muslims would disagree on how Islam should be interpreted. I just wish there was more peace throughout the world.

thats the thing with all faiths why so violent all they ever do is cause pain to each other what ever happened to live and let live .

as you point out all most humans want is peace and quiet and food and shelter but we cannot even get that right

reply to post by RimDaas


i hope the general muslim population are civilised.

However, then this event happened...

www.guardian.co.uk...

Lockerbie bomber returns to hero's welcome in Libya

Flag-waving crowds greet Abdelbaset al-Megrahi in scenes US warned UK and Libyan governments it did not want to see.

Surely the people should have stoned the mass murderer to death. But they didn't. That said it all.

Well said. S&F But the op needs to remember that the peoples in the countries that are supporting the war on terror are being programmed to hate Islam. The news medias are constantly bombarding people with propaganda showing how Islam is a violent religion.

Originally posted by Rapha
reply to post by RimDaas

 

i hope the general muslim population are civilised.

However, then this event happened...

www.guardian.co.uk...

Lockerbie bomber returns to hero's welcome in Libya

Flag-waving crowds greet Abdelbaset al-Megrahi in scenes US warned UK and Libyan governments it did not want to see.

Surely the people should have stoned the mass murderer to death. But they didn't. That said it all.

I don't know what made the people do something like that, but hear me out. The press isn't as free as it is in the UK and the US. You wouldn't see someone who attacked the "Westerners" as a criminal. Sadly, these people are portrayed as heroes and people who defeated an invader and a conqueror.

Originally posted by Rapha
reply to post by RimDaas

 

i hope the general muslim population are civilised.

However, then this event happened...

www.guardian.co.uk...

Lockerbie bomber returns to hero's welcome in Libya

Flag-waving crowds greet Abdelbaset al-Megrahi in scenes US warned UK and Libyan governments it did not want to see.

Surely the people should have stoned the mass murderer to death. But they didn't. That said it all.

lucky find for the copper who was out walking his dog that piece of circuit board that most of the case rested on and he just happened to be working on the case the bloke was framed

reply to post by RimDaas

I've been accused of hating Muslims, and worse, so I suppose I should comment. As I can't reach into other minds, all I can offer is how I think about it.

I consider Islam unique in that I don't know of another religion with followers killing themselves and others to advance their religion, and in the name of their religion. True, a Buddhist Monk will occasionally set himself on fire, but even that is often for political and nationalistic reasons.

Israel doesn't have an army to advance Judaism, its for the country not the religion. Christianity doesn't have an army at all (Unless you count the Pope's Swiss guards). If we look instead at individuals, we see that 70% of the terrorist deaths in 2011 were caused by Sunnis. I haven't heard any reason for these attacks other than religion.

Couple the religious violence, which appears to be primarily committed by Sunnis, with the Draconian penalties imposed by some Islamic countries, and I suppose some posters will call it barbaric. Considering one of the penalties for adultery, "Stone age" is a darkly humorous, yet apt, expression.

I've always wondered what I could do to satisfy this hatred, how to disprove their argument, or get them to stop.

For me, it's more fear than hatred. All anyone has to do is to show me I don't have a reason to be afraid.

"All Muslims are extremists.

I don't believe that. No matter how you define "extremist" however, it's not just a few hundred crazies.

Why aren't "Moderates" taking action against extremists?"

What, actually, are Muslim governments and spiritual leaders doing? Are they offering rewards for information on terrorists? Are they passing information on suspects to the West? When they find terrorists in their own countries do they shame them and give them dishonorable deaths, or do they give them (or their survivors) cash rewards? Do the spiritual leaders throughout Islam condemn them, encourage their members to report suspicious behavior? Do they punish Imams who take extremist positions?

I haven't counted the number of "extremist" or "Islamic" crimes carried out by Muslims, but overall, that number is a tiny fraction of the amount of Muslims in the world.

But the majority of terroristic acts.

You've seen how the US has committed war crimes against Iraq or attacked Pakistan and Afghanistan with drones? What are YOU doing? How are YOU stopping them?

Off the subject for several reasons. (By the way, that's one of the reasons I find it difficult to have extended discussions with some Muslims. It always seems to suddenly become "Forget about us, what about you?" The topic was attacks on Islam, not on the US)

I'm not sure the US has committed war crimes. Who has determined that? The US isn't doing anything in the name of a religion. The US isn't a religious government. We report on it openly to the world, and vote to change or not change governments.

We've seen how Westboro church pickets outside funerals or slanders veterans. What are YOU doing? How are YOU stopping the crimes which go on every day?

We condemn and mock them on a regular basis, we pass laws to restrict their activities as far as our Constitution allows. A group of motorcyclists gets between them and funeral events. Finally, this is one tiny, isolated group, which can be easily dismantled the moment they violate laws.

How does one counter the acts of the extremists? Powerful rich ones with contacts among the criminal underworld?

With governments and informers. Just like the Mafia is attacked in the US.

You speak of standing for love and tolerance, yet spread hatred and lies.

Honestly, I don't want to base my opinions on false information. Tell me where I am wrong.

I don't know what made the people do something like that, but hear me out. The press isn't as free as it is in the UK and the US. You wouldn't see someone who attacked the "Westerners" as a criminal. Sadly, these people are portrayed as heroes and people who defeated an invader and a conqueror.

This is part of my point. The press would be free in those countries if the government wanted a free press. It seems, based on this, that the governments are spreading hatred and lies with far more effect than any ATSer.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by RimDaas

 

I've been accused of hating Muslims, and worse, so I suppose I should comment. As I can't reach into other minds, all I can offer is how I think about it.

I consider Islam unique in that I don't know of another religion with followers killing themselves and others to advance their religion, and in the name of their religion. True, a Buddhist Monk will occasionally set himself on fire, but even that is often for political and nationalistic reasons.

Errrr...Jesus died in the name of religion?
And Samson.
And taking his name, check out the Israeli "Samson Option". Or the Provisional IRA.
Heck, I don't know a lot of religions where you couldn't find some "strong" believer who if asked "Would you be willing to die for God?", they wouldn't say "Yes" (even if it was all just bluster).

Originally posted by charles1952
Israel doesn't have an army to advance Judaism, its for the country not the religion. Christianity doesn't have an army at all (Unless you count the Pope's Swiss guards). If we look instead at individuals, we see that 70% of the terrorist deaths in 2011 were caused by Sunnis. I haven't heard any reason for these attacks other than religion.

Surely you see the contrariness of claiming that jewish terrorism doesn't count because it is nationalistic, while terrorism by Palestinians and Afghanis counts, even though they all give both religious as well as explicitly nationalistic ("Get out of our country!" "Stop bombing us!") reasons.

Anyhow, in India, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura (among the 10 most active terrorist groups in the world) whose activities are motivated by their christian beliefs, and who have been known to forcefully convert people. The Manmasi National Christian Army, who also force people to convert at gunpoint.
In Africa you have the Lord's Resistance Army, headed by Kony, who you may remember from a pointless media campaign a last year. Then in the US you have the Army of God, who attack abortion doctors and bomb clinics. You have the Orange volunteers in Ireland.
Violence is not unique to muslims. Not now, not historically.

Originally posted by charles1952
What, actually, are Muslim governments and spiritual leaders doing? Are they offering rewards for information on terrorists? Are they passing information on suspects to the West? When they find terrorists in their own countries do they shame them and give them dishonorable deaths, or do they give them (or their survivors) cash rewards? Do the spiritual leaders throughout Islam condemn them, encourage their members to report suspicious behavior? Do they punish Imams who take extremist positions?

I've repeatedly responded to this assertion, even given a quote of a quote of me responding to this assertion. The idea that there exists some "silent majority" is hogwash. Goverments in muslim countries like certainly don't treat terrorists there lightly- if anything, they're treated much more harshly. And there are thousands and thousands of "muslim spiritual leaders" who denounce terrorism. And as I've mentioned before, the majority of terrorist plots in the US and UK are foiled because the muslim community reported those people. In fact, an FBI plant, placed to incite people to terrorism was discovered because the muslims at the mosque he tried recruiting from reported him.

Originally posted by charles1952
(By the way, that's one of the reasons I find it difficult to have extended discussions with some Muslims. It always seems to suddenly become "Forget about us, what about you?" The topic was attacks on Islam, not on the US)

I'm not sure you understand the purpose when this is pointed out. Do you realise the ridiculousness of "They're savages, they hate us for our freedoms! They hate us in their blood!" etc., when the very obvious and blatant and in-your-face reason they hate the US is because the US is bombing them. It isn't "Don't look at us, you're worse!". Heck, the very idea of muslim hatred as if in a vacuum, regardless of anything else, the idea of "They hate us because of our freedoms!" is all the more absurd and ridiculous because there are people who actually think it is true.

Originally posted by charles1952
I'm not sure the US has committed war crimes. Who has determined that? The US isn't doing anything in the name of a religion. The US isn't a religious government. We report on it openly to the world, and vote to change or not change governments.

The previous administration made HEAVY use of Christian religious symbolism in their attack of predominantly muslim countries. Even now, the US army is heavily infused with christian symbolism and imagery and propaganda, especially against muslims.
As for war crimes? It is kinda difficult when you're the one defining what "war" and "crime" and "terrorism" and "torture" and "civilian" is. The US straight out said that they consider to be militants ANY person of fighting age they find dead in a drone attack. Convenient, isn't it? The government has given itself permission to create and act out on a "hit list" of assassination targets, including american citizens who were killed with no due process.
Not to mention all the rape, execution of innocents (including women and children) that gets caught (sometimes), and then barely even punished.

reply to post by RimDaas

RimDaas, every generation or so has its boogeyman- someone for TPTB to generate hate and fear of. It just so happens that this generation it has become muslims. I'd like to think it is not too late to reverse the tide, but even if it isn't, much like against the Catholics, against the Jews, against the Communists, it'll pass.

i don't like hypocrites they abuse woman kill innocent civilians and hate all other religion and then call us savages it is not what they do that bothers me ( tho it is horrible) as much as it is they say we are worse

Reply to post by charles1952

???...
'the US isnt doing anything in the name of religion'

"one nation, under god"
That is all.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by babloyi

Dear babloyi,

I'm glad you stepped into this. We might not agree, but each of your posts deserve to be read thoroughly, sometimes twice. You write a lot of good stuff, don't leave ATS, you're needed.

Jesus and the martyrs didn't kill themselves or anyone else for their religion. But I'll give you Samson.

Tripura? The latest count is that they're down to 127 members whom the police are all over. I've never seen a list that they we're in the top ten most dangerous. Frankly, I don't believe it. Manmasi? Formed in 2009 with 15 members. After their first action, police arrested 13. Kony is down to 200 followers and is being chased by Africa and the US. Army of God has had one action since 2001. Most of their members have been arrested and the "group" is now considered to be a few lone wolves.

Nobody has said violence is "unique" to Muslims, but with the possible exception of FARC, a Communist group, they own the field.

The nationalistic reasons for Muslim violence are scarcely credible. Violence is up in Iraq, but we're not there. It's up in Afghanistan, but we're leaving. It's up in countries in Africa which have had nothing to do with the invasions. Finally, between 82% and 97% of the terrorist victims are fellow Muslims. Do you think one group of Muslims is invading another group's territory?

Are Muslim nations cracking down on terrorist groups? Perhaps the ones they don't like. But cash rewards have been given to suicide bombers, and many groups are allowed to operate with the government ignoring them. If Islamic countries wanted to eliminate terrorists, they could do a pretty decent job of it. If Africa can marginalize or destroy those above mentioned groups, certainly the rich and powerful Islamic nations could do the same.

Some Imams talk about peace to the public, some talk about war. What's being said in the world's Mosques, we'll probably never know. But whatever they're saying, it doesn't seem to be doing much good.

As I mentioned above, the bombing may be an excuse, but that's all it is. Why are the vast majority of their victims fellow Muslims? They're not doing any bombing. Why attack anybody in Africa? It's not logical.

Christian symbolism? And what is your conclusion from that? That the government which has consistently said there's no war against Islam for over a decade is joking? Do you think there's a war against Islam? If we wanted there to be, the Middle-East wouldn't look like it is now.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Great Post.



See, I look to the Leadership as well. Those that teach, and those that are in a position to be spokesmen for their faith.

That's where Islam lacks when it comes to changing the way the World looks at it.

You will have detractors with ANY religion, because Religion in General has a reputation that has a large amount of blood on its hands.Maybe more then Governments have if you look to history.

I consider Islam unique in that I don't know of another religion with followers killing themselves and others to advance their religion, and in the name of their religion. True, a Buddhist Monk will occasionally set himself on fire, but even that is often for political and nationalistic reasons.

At all points in history, we've seen instances of people fighting in the name of religion. Unfortunately, at this point in time, we've reached a stage in technology in which suicide bombings can be carried out, and sadly, it is the extremist groups which are using this to the fullest advantages. If it wasn't the Muslims carrying out attacks, some other Extremist group would. Sadly, that is how humans go.

Let me ask you something. Why are Muslims carrying out suicide bombings? You claim it's in the name of religion, however, in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the political situation is in turmoil. The US is firing drones every day onto the tribal areas. Chechnya has been wanting independence for sometime. Most bomb blasts take place in troubled regions of the globe. If you think they were only done in the name of religion, you are a fool.
For the other bomb blasts, I cannot speak.

Israel doesn't have an army to advance Judaism, its for the country not the religion. Christianity doesn't have an army at all (Unless you count the Pope's Swiss guards). If we look instead at individuals, we see that 70% of the terrorist deaths in 2011 were caused by Sunnis. I haven't heard any reason for these attacks other than religion.

Most sectarianist attacks which have taken place in Iraq and Pakistan and Afghanistan have more reason than one. I'm not an expert on Iraqi history but we all know how the US has directly interfered with it, not only in the 1990s, but also in the 1950s! Pakistan and Afghanistan in my opinion, are more complex. There is little electricity, fuel, and food. On top of this, prices keep rising on basic commodities. There is a ruling elite which controls most of the wealth in the country. There is little education in the country which allows extremists backed by the politicians themselves to take control of them and keep them occupied killing each other to retain control. There has been a government change in Pakistan, but I don't know if it can succeed.

Couple the religious violence, which appears to be primarily committed by Sunnis, with the Draconian penalties imposed by some Islamic countries, and I suppose some posters will call it barbaric. Considering one of the penalties for adultery, "Stone age" is a darkly humorous, yet apt, expression.

Only 40 years ago, most Arab nations were secular. Pakistan had no blasphemy laws or adultery laws. Shariah was free. That is when the US came and swiftly took down the elected heads of government and placed their own anti-communist leader. Bhutto was executed and Zia-Ul-Haq, a fanatic was put in charge. The US didn't care about his "draconian laws". He would aid them against the Communists.

For me, it's more fear than hatred. All anyone has to do is to show me I don't have a reason to be afraid.

When this fear is so fixated in your mind after a decade of seeing Muslims portrayed in a bad light all day long, how do you think I will say you don't have to be afraid?

I don't believe that. No matter how you define "extremist" however, it's not just a few hundred crazies.

Yes, however, most Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters aren't doing it for religion. They're doing it for a living. They're mostly farmers who were attracted by the payment offered. The rich ones are truly "extremist"

What, actually, are Muslim governments and spiritual leaders doing? Are they offering rewards for information on terrorists? Are they passing information on suspects to the West? When they find terrorists in their own countries do they shame them and give them dishonorable deaths, or do they give them (or their survivors) cash rewards? Do the spiritual leaders throughout Islam condemn them, encourage their members to report suspicious behavior? Do they punish Imams who take extremist positions?

Of course they do! Just because you don't see them on TV doesn't mean there is no action taken! You think we all universally love these extremists? Take my advice. They are hated. But extremists in Pakistan are backed by powerful politicians. Have you heard of Tahir-Ul-Qadri? He is famous because of his "Fatwa against Suicide Bombings". Look him up. There are many more Imams who disprove of these violent methods.

But the majority of terroristic acts.

With political motives. There's always a reason. I thought after being on this site, you'd learn to recognize that no one would blow themselves up for a God. Suicide is against Islam.

I'm not sure the US has committed war crimes. Who has determined that? The US isn't doing anything in the name of a religion. The US isn't a religious government. We report on it openly to the world, and vote to change or not change governments.

So you think attacking a nation of the false assumption they had WMDs and killed millions of innocents in the process is not considered a war crime? Drones regularly kill innocents every day in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Should this not be punished.

Yes, I know the US isn't a religious government. Elections take place in most "Islamic" countries. The Khalifas were voted in. Most of the nations here are democracies too. The problem is, that most political parties are powerful and can easily rig the votes. I've already said that these attacks already have a much greater motive and higher purpose. Mostly political.

We condemn and mock them on a regular basis, we pass laws to restrict their activities as far as our Constitution allows. A group of motorcyclists gets between them and funeral events. Finally, this is one tiny, isolated group, which can be easily dismantled the moment they violate laws.

That is not 'we'. That is 'them'. Not YOU. You keep asking what WE'RE doing, I'm asking what YOU'RE doing. Compared to the fact that there are 1 billion Muslims, the terrorist groups are also a tiny group. Regular Muslims disprove of them.

With governments and informers. Just like the Mafia is attacked in the US.

You think it's that easy? Why don't we all go to the nearest criminal group and start attacking them? And let me ask you something. When the government is the criminal group, what do you do?

reply to post by RimDaas

I've seen the "All Muslims are extremists. Why aren't "Moderates" taking action against extremists?"

The answer to that is Muslims are taking action against the extremists... proper legal and military action.
Such questions are born of ignorance.... because Muslims fighting in the national armies of Muslim countries such as Mali, Malaysia, Pakistan, Syria and Afghanistan have taken on those perceived as extremists.

In such cases, where Muslims take action against the extremists, the same people asking that question are quick to dismiss it with "look how the Muslims kill each other"!!!111

You've seen how the US has committed war crimes against Iraq or attacked Pakistan and Afghanistan with drones? What are YOU doing? How are YOU stopping them?

Drone deaths are justified in a number of ways. Often the claim is made that its their fault for being around a terrorist.... like as if innocents who are NOT around terrorists haven't been killed.

We've seen how Westboro church pickets outside funerals or slanders veterans. What are YOU doing? How are YOU stopping the crimes which go on every day?

They can't, because freedom of speech.

reply to post by billdadobbie


It is sad that people still go for the propaganda in both sides, religion is just another tool... Those behind it all got their pound of flesh from Qaddafi and Lybia and they are taking the same from everyone else they don't care about religion... they care about the balance sheet, oil, gold and power...

reply to post by charles1952

Hey Charles!

You said that Islam was UNIQUE in that you didn't know any other religion whose followers kill themselves and others to advance their religion. You also said that none of the other religions have armies. I was just providing you information that showed you were wrong.

Also for your own information, terrorists in Tripura haven't reduced, they've increased, what with the NLFT joining up with other groups like the ATTF and BNCT to form the "United Forum", the article you (probably) got your information about Konye was from over a year ago, and quotes the Lords Resistance Army as having "between 200 and 700 followers", but that is probably really outdated, as we know their strategy of abducting hundreds of children at once to fight for them from schools. And you can't be a group of "a few Lone Wolves", that's just silly. Why are you trying to diminish the evil that all these Christian Terrorists have done?

Originally posted by charles1952
The nationalistic reasons for Muslim violence are scarcely credible. Violence is up in Iraq, but we're not there. It's up in Afghanistan, but we're leaving. It's up in countries in Africa which have had nothing to do with the invasions. Finally, between 82% and 97% of the terrorist victims are fellow Muslims. Do you think one group of Muslims is invading another group's territory?

I'm not sure which side you're arguing exactly. First you say that Muslim don't do enough to oppose these terrorists, then you point out that the terrorists are killing muslims. Care to connect the dots for yourself? Iraq is a warzone, despite the US withdrawl. The separatists still want the country for themselves. Same with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and since they were displaced from there into Pakistan (who is also fighting against terrorists as an ally in the War on Terror).

Originally posted by charles1952
Are Muslim nations cracking down on terrorist groups? Perhaps the ones they don't like. But cash rewards have been given to suicide bombers, and many groups are allowed to operate with the government ignoring them. If Islamic countries wanted to eliminate terrorists, they could do a pretty decent job of it. If Africa can marginalize or destroy those above mentioned groups, certainly the rich and powerful Islamic nations could do the same.

The ones in their power. Unlike the US, most other countries don't use such excuses to go invade other countries. Would you think it appropriate if Mexico invaded the US because it said that the US wasn't handling its right wing terrorist groups well enough?
And who provides cash rewards? Palestinians against Israel maybe, but then again, that is a conflict zone which, at least on the muslim side, merely uses Islam as a motivating factor- the real reasons behind that is nationalistic.

I didn't say there is a war against Islam, and the higher-ups in the government still deny any such thing (although, as I said, the previous administration still used expressions like "crusade"). But on a lower level, especially in the army, such a viewpoint, or the viewpoint demonising muslims ("ragheads", etc.) is strongly pushed by certain parties.

reply to post by charles1952

Are they passing information on suspects to the West? When they find terrorists in their own countries do they shame them and give them dishonorable deaths, or do they give them (or their survivors) cash rewards? Do the spiritual leaders throughout Islam condemn them, encourage their members to report suspicious behavior? Do they punish Imams who take extremist positions?

Hiya, Charles,

It would help you understand to read Jeremy Scahill's book Dirty Wars.

In Dirty Wars: The World Is a Battlefield, Jeremy Scahill, author of the New York Times bestseller Blackwater: The World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, takes us inside America’s new covert wars. The foot soldiers in these battles operate globally and inside the United States with orders from the White House to do whatever is necessary to hunt down, capture, or kill individuals designated by the president as enemies.
Drawn from the ranks of the Navy SEALs, Delta Force, former Blackwater and other private security contractors, the CIA’s Special Activities Division, and the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), these elite soldiers operate worldwide, with thousands of secret commandos working in more than one hundred countries. Funded through “black budgets,” Special Operations Forces conduct missions in denied areas, engage in targeted killings, snatch and grab individuals, and direct drone, AC-130, and cruise missile strikes. While the Bush administration deployed these ghost militias, President Barack Obama has expanded their operations and given them new scope and legitimacy.

Yes, the West's military and administrations HAVE committed and CONTINUE to commit war crimes. In the case of Yemen and Saudi Arabia, they have worked with those governments and those covert super-secret (until now) operations backfired -- now Yemen is a hotbed of Extremist Islam, and it IS due to the atrocities allowed by the Bushes and now Obama. It is sickening.

Rumsfeld should be arrested and tried for war crimes against humanity. Bush (both of them), Cheney, and Obama as well, (Obama has actually INCREASED the "drone strikes" program and special ops and the "JSOC, CIA and Secret programs" that were started under Bush.)
He is a traitor, I'm sorry to say. I voted for him based on his rhetoric, TWICE.

What the USA has done - and continues to do - has made things WORSE - there is no disputing it.

It's the actions of those JSOC and affiliated "covert and clandestine ops", with the encouragement of the White House that have CAUSED the backlash. And those people running the black ops have NO ACCOUNTABILITY to Congress or even the brass at the Pentagon (although some in thePentagon are colluding with those special ops behind the scenes, too).. It's sickening, shameful, and deeply disturbing.