What is that "the christian god"?

reply to post by logical7

Christianity completely removed the law and stressed on spirituality thinking thats what Jesus pbuh wanted.

What Jesus removed was man-made laws and emphasised the Law that actually does any good, which is your relationship with God and other people.
If you mean the Jesus of the New Testament rather than some hypothetical Jesus, he said it himself, that God was demanding something better than the superficial religion as was practiced in his day. How that next level was to be achieved was through spirituality.
Islam only reverses the process that Jesus was implementing.

reply to post by logical7

your whole assumptions and reasonings rest on one assumption that you think is true and that it, "paul was really truthful!!"

Paul was truthful, what he preached about can be found all in the Torah and Tenach, right from the prophet's mouths. As a Pharisee he was an expert in the Law, he knew right where to find them and how they applied. Gentiles back then had no idea about anything in the Torah or Tenach and they needed a teacher who could show them and teach them those things. In fact the New King James bible tells you exactly where to find what he preached about in the old testament, not just him but the other Apostles and Jesus to. Go grab you a copy and start reading.

reply to post by jmdewey60

How that next level was to be achieved was through spirituality. Islam only reverses the process that Jesus was implementing.

spirituality is not a "next" level. It is a part of religion, the other part being the law. Leaving the law does not make anyone achieve a higher level! Its just wishful thinking.
If a person is really spiritual, the law should become easy to follow for him/her.
The ability to follow the law is a good self-assessment of the spirituality of a person.
The whole idea of discarding the law was of paul who believed that gentiles don't need to follow jewish law.
Jesus pbuh actually forbade from going to gentiles at all and nobody needed to specially teach jews to continue following the law.
The last 12 verses in Mark that teach about preaching to gentiles are a fabrication and not found in the oldest copies!!!
Its so obvious that they were added after pauline teaching became widespread and the gospels needed to confirm it to make it look as being authenticated by Jesus pbuh himself.
I don't know how can anyone lie in the name of Jesus pbuh and call themselves teaching higher spirituality!!

reply to post by logical7


No one is "discarding" law.
The Muslim religion says that all you have to do is believe, and belief just comes from doing the ritual and somehow you just "get into it".
Jesus, according to the Gospel of John, says the time in now to worship God in spirit and truth.
All that goes against what the Muslim religion says.

Paul knew Jesus through the spirit and received teachings directly from him in heaven.
The Gospels were not written by Jesus though there were traditions handed down of his sayings that made it into the gospels.
So in my opinion, the authentic letters of Paul are more authoritative than the gospels as far as what Jesus was trying to get across to people.
Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles and so that was not something neglected by Jesus for hundreds of years.

Who do you think is lying "in the name of Jesus"?

If Allah is the same god as the true God like you claim, then every Muslim out there will have no problem agreeing with this:

Matthew 3:16-17(KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And:

Luke 9:35 (KJV)
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

reply to post by jeramie


What I find weird is that the holy spirit had to descend on Jesus even though he was supposedly born with it. Why did he need to be baptized at all?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus is the mercy seat (which was the gold platform on the ark), where in the wilderness tabernacle, the spirit of God would descend to and rest over.
Jesus himself replaced the temple as the place to meet God.

reply to post by jmdewey60

No one is "discarding" law. The Muslim religion says that all you have to do is believe, and belief just comes from doing the ritual and somehow you just "get into it".

not keeping the law equals "discarding" it.

Its not muslim who say that just believing is required, its the christian who say that!

In Islam we are taught that God sees the heart, the intentions and the deeds.
God wants a person to bring a pure heart on judgement day, doing good deeds, prayers, fasting, charity help purify the heart by putting the believe in action.
Having a belief in God and yet living a life as if there is no God is hypocrisy! God gave a law to be followed, i guess its too much for christians to follow it for God.
A self proclaimed apostle came and lied that Jesus pbuh spoke to him and everyone just believes him, maybe because it confirms their own wishes and gives an easy way to salvation. It would be interesting if paul turns out to be a liar and salvation still depends on repentance to God and doing good deeds and each being responsible for their sins. Who would you then blame for misleading you? What will be your excuse for making partners to God?

(5:116) And imagine when thereafter Allah will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people: "Take me and my mother for gods beside Allah?" and he will answer: "Glory to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to. Had I said so, You would surely have known it. You know all what is within my mind whereas I do not know what is within Yours. You, indeed You, know fully all that is beyond the reach of human perception.
(5:117) I said to them nothing except what You commanded me, that is: 'Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' I watched over them as long as I remained among them; and when You did recall me, then You Yourself became the Watcher over them. Indeed, You are Witness over everything.

Originally posted by jeramie
If Allah is the same god as the true God like you claim, then every Muslim out there will have no problem agreeing with this:

Matthew 3:16-17(KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And:

Luke 9:35 (KJV)
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

what kind of illogic is that?
So if i believe in the same and Only God that Jesus pbuh worshipped, i have to believe whoever wrote whatever in the NT?
The Bible has been changed to reflect the belief that the church wanted which was based on paul's teachings.
You are free to believe and follow paul, just don't put the blame on Jesus pbuh. He is free of all the associations of divinity attributed to him, he is the Messiah but he is a man, a prophet and a creation of God.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by logical7

 

your whole assumptions and reasonings rest on one assumption that you think is true and that it, "paul was really truthful!!"

Paul was truthful, what he preached about can be found all in the Torah and Tenach, right from the prophet's mouths. As a Pharisee he was an expert in the Law, he knew right where to find them and how they applied. Gentiles back then had no idea about anything in the Torah or Tenach and they needed a teacher who could show them and teach them those things. In fact the New King James bible tells you exactly where to find what he preached about in the old testament, not just him but the other Apostles and Jesus to. Go grab you a copy and start reading.

you mean a self-proclaimed apostle to gentiles comes and starts preaching to them when the other true apostles refrain and then paul also says its fine for gentiles not to follow the law and he builds a theology around it.
Did Jesus pbuh appoint him? Oh yes he says that Jesus pbuh appeared to him and he is being guided through him. Ya right!!
So your whole faith is based on a chance that paul is truthful and not on what Jesus pbuh taught as you wrongly believe and delude yourself to feel better!
Its not christianity, its paulinity!!
I hope you at least admit it for what it really is.

reply to post by logical7

you mean a self-proclaimed apostle to gentiles comes and starts preaching to them when the other true apostles refrain and then paul also says its fine for gentiles not to follow the law and he builds a theology around it.
Did Jesus pbuh appoint him? Oh yes he says that Jesus pbuh appeared to him and he is being guided through him. Ya right!!

Paul was confirmed by Peter and the other Apostles. Ananias of Damascus had to heal him and afterward he laid hands on him and Saul of Tarsus (Apostle Paul) received the Holy Spirit. Barnabas confirmed him before the apostles in Jerusalem. Barnabas and Saul later preached at the church Antioch for a year together. Barnabas would later be skinned alive for his testimony of Jesus. Paul wasn't self proclaimed, he was confirmed.

reply to post by logical7

God wants a person to bring a pure heart on judgement day, doing good deeds, prayers, fasting, charity help purify the heart by putting the believe in action.

That is what I was talking about.
You have two diverse approaches between the Muslim and the Christian religions.
The one, as you described, says you do certain prescribed works and by doing them, you "purify" yourself.
The second says you purify yourself first so that your works are truly good and from God.
The first is so many man-made laws and is the same thing that Jesus was confronted with, and was opposed by, and what he died to do away with.

A self proclaimed apostle came and lied that Jesus pbuh spoke to him and everyone just believes him, maybe because it confirms their own wishes and gives an easy way to salvation.

You are stating this as if it was fact, and this suggests to me that you have been indoctrinated into believing in this by a cult.
Paul was writing the letters that ended up being the foundation of the New Testament before the so-called gospels were written.
I believe that the gospels are attempts at fleshing out the person of Jesus, based on the concepts taught by Paul, and definitely not the other way around as you suggest.
I think your cult came up with its concepts a very long time ago and is based on outdated and faulty and biased scholarship. In today's age, it is just plain silly, in my opinion, to continue to hold to them.

Your opinion that Paul preached an "easy" salvation, I would take as a result of your lack of understanding of what Paul was saying. What Paul was doing away with is nothing more than what the Muslim religion does, which is eliminating the laws peculiar to the Jews that have nothing to do with common morality.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Dunno bout you bro but I find musicals really annoying. All that singing and dancing, naw I can't do it. I'd rather someone take a jackhammer to my testicles for 8 hours a day.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jeramie

 

What I find weird is that the holy spirit had to descend on Jesus even though he was supposedly born with it. Why did he need to be baptized at all?

3NL, we've been telling you forever that you're NOT BORN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to his followers.