Su-35 at Paris

reply to post by Zaphod58


LOL, definitely above my education level. I'm guessing here but then it's not the same as all the maneuvers programmed into the system that the pilot is restricted to. More like computer controlled adjustments in response to the moves made by the pilot?

Are the Russians capable of CPU'd technology or is there a good reason not to use it?

reply to post by nwtrucker


Relaxed stability is where if you release the control stick, the airplane doesn't want to fly straight and level without help. It's similar to the F-16, and F-117 flight control systems. Add fly-by-wire and thrust vectoring to it, and you get a supermaneuverable aircraft.

Doesn't seem to be as unstable as newer american aircraft like the F-22A, F/A-18E/F and F-35. Not that they, especially the latter two, are more manoeuvrable than the Su-35. To the contrary. A very impressive display.

Some things to think about...:

An aircraft that is stable in pitch will have a centre of mass ahead of the centre of lift, thus to prevent the aircraft from nosediving the horizontal stab will have to produce negative lift. Stable aircraft will tend to want to return to flying pretty much straight when there are no control inputs. And the pitch rate can be regarded as being pretty much proportional to the deflection of the horizontal stabilizer. This is pretty much what you see in the video.

Unstable aircraft are the opposite. An increase in angle of attack will usually require an increase in horizontal stabilizer lift (which is typically what would be considered a nose down input). If this is not done then the angle of attack will increase. So it can be said to diverge from stable flight.

Relaxed stability aircraft and essentially only need control large control inputs to start a maneuver.

If you watch a F-22 demonstration the only extremely obvious horizontal stab deflections occur when the aircraft is initiating a turn (i.e. when second derivative of pitch is non-zero). Or watch the horizontal stab on a F/A-18E/F (unstable aircraft) versus a F/A-18A/B/C/D. It's also why the approach speeds of the F/A-18E/F are similar to that of the A/B/C/D even though the wing is proportionally smaller.

An interesting thread on F-16 net covering the maneuverability of the SU-35 vs the F-22.

If it's accurate, the Raptor still wins out.....

reply to post by nwtrucker


I have been reading on that site for several years, and the discussion you are talking about is probably one of the dumbest I have ever heard on that site. The quality of discussion was extremely low. Also most members posting in that thread were newbies.

reply to post by C0bzz


Hmmm, are you saying then, that the conclusion that the Raptor could still outmaneuver, at least at combat speeds, the SU-35 as inaccurate?

If so, then please explain.

Other than as a fan, I'd fall into the same category as a "newbie".

reply to post by nwtrucker


The F-22 carries an internal weapons load, and is designed for supersonic speeds, including super cruise. It is also stealthy, and has more advanced avionics. There is no doubt the F-22 would make short work of the Su-35.

More manoeuvrable? The standard of proof in that discussion was very low, just a bunch of air show manoeuvres taken from cameras on the ground, most of which didn't show anything. It is difficult to deduce anything from the videos presented. Also one of the videos presented in that thread was actually from F-22 flight test, and was actually an uncontrolled departure from controlled flight, while the Su-35 was within controlled flight. A F-22 spinning out of control doesn't mean the F-22 is more manoeuvrable than the Su-35.

F-16 dot net is a great forum, however it tends to be biased towards american aircraft being better than everything. Even to the point where the evidence presented is nonsense and made up. Other forums, like key pub, have in my experience been the opposite.

In other words, I am saying the evidence presented was horrible.

You're probably best off reading "Air Power 101 for New Members" on Defence Talk.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
The Su-35 flew at the Paris Airshow today. There's not much to say about the video, except holy crap. Supposedly the F-35 is going to have better maneuverability than any 4th generation fighter out there (the Flanker E is a 4++), but I have yet to see anything even remotely close to even the same general vicinity of maneuverability that the Flanker showed today.

Hello i'm new here, just watched the video and it was outstanding. How will it compete against the US fighters? It's from the original Flanker series which the reporting name of the SU-35 is Flanker E. But outstanding demo.

Originally posted by nwtrucker
Hmmm, are you saying then, that the conclusion that the Raptor could still outmaneuver, at least at combat speeds, the SU-35 as inaccurate?

This question tends to come up a lot on boards like this, but in truth it is a very inexact question. If you were in a guns-only dogfight (IE if it was the 13th hour of the 13th day of the 13th month) the winner would probably be decided more so on pilot skill and initial conditions than it would an airframe performance. The biggest difference between the F-22 and the Su-35 at that engagement range is that the Su-35 has 2-axis asymmetric TVC versus the F-22's 1-axis symmetric. The only difference this makes is allowing the Su-35 to maintain roll and yaw control during post-stalled maneuvers. Fight-winning capability? I don't think so. The airframes just aren't all that much different to give either one a fight-winning advantage.

If we open the engagement range up to IR missile range then the question becomes not 'can the Su-35 outmaneuver the Raptor', but 'Can either one outmaneuver a short-range missile?' to which the answer is to pull the ejection cord.

reply to post by C0bzz


Thanks for the info. I will check out that site.

There is one reference at "Red Flag 2008-4" where an USAF Colonel had the skinny on the SU-30MKI against Mountain Home F-15's (senior pilots) and stated the SU-30 had a CTR of 22 degrees per second at 20,000 ft. and the Raptor had a CTR of 28 degrees per second.

The SU-35 is probably heavier than the SU-30...same engine..?

reply to post by Ribox12


It depends on the situation. WVR against F-15s and F-16s, it probably wins most of the time. BVR against upgraded F-15s and F-16s, it becomes much closer. Against an F-22, I would put money on the F-22 just about every time in BVR.

reply to post by C0bzz


My Gawd!!! That defensetalk and that "101" thread has already blown me away!!

There is no way I will ever be qualified to even post.LOL.....But I will read and learn.....

Originally posted by nwtrucker
reply to post by C0bzz

 

My Gawd!!! That defensetalk and that "101" thread has already blown me away!!

There is no way I will ever be qualified to even post.LOL.....But I will read and learn.....

Heh, most people on forums like that (and this) are laymen (including myself) but over time you learn things.

Also I was rather inebriated when I wrote my last post, I'm surprised it made any sense at all.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Ribox12

 

It depends on the situation. WVR against F-15s and F-16s, it probably wins most of the time. BVR against upgraded F-15s and F-16s, it becomes much closer. Against an F-22, I would put money on the F-22 just about every time in BVR.

It depends on the pilot and your machine interface. It isn't the situation, only matters the machine and when to pull. In BVR the F-22 could BBQ the F-15 and F-16. While in WVR i guess both are dead.

See the coicidence on the F-22 beaten every time in WVR? The F-22 may not be a superior WVR interface machine. Even the Eurofighter, Super Hornet, F-16, Harrier, F-15, Gripen, Rafale have all beaten the Raptor in a WVR exercise.

The F-22 won't be the future aircraft since it's long life span is 30 years to survive.

reply to post by Ribox12


Everybody tends to forget the role of the f-22. It was designed to be a stealth plane and launch it's missiles BVR without the enemy even seeing them. Will they have to dog fight Someday? Perhaps. But they most likely won't be fighting against the Russians or Chinese and the enemy pilots will be less capable, even if they have a better weapons system than the f-22, which I still doubt any aircraft is better. Also keep in mind that there will be a swarm of f-35s around as well and most people don't know the true capability of that jet in WVR.

The F-22 defeats than we've heard of are garbage. You think our pilots are giving it 100 percent in a war game with foreign fighters? Highly unlikely that we are giving away it's capability. That jet is amazing.

reply to post by Ribox12


Ribox12, first the Rafale has never defeated the F-22 BVR or WVR.

Second, the Grippen has never trained or flown against a Raptor. ( Red Flag is a DACT event and if there was contact it wouldn't reflect aircraft capabilities.)

On top of that, my points are irrelevant as any training between different platforms are called "D.A.C.T's".

Different aircraft combat training. All of which have restrictions placed on them for the purpose of that training. No information is released on the rules of those DACT events. Therefore ANY conclusion based on "scores" is useless information.

One more point, having followed the Raptor as a fan, not an expert, for the fifteen years that the raptor has flown, I know of NO defeats of the Raptor BVR.
All Rafale, Typhoon, T-37 and F-18-who broke DACT rules- were WVR.

There is no training benefit in being shot down when you don't even know where the opponent is. Therefore it doesn't happen in training as it is of no benefit to the plane "shot down".

As far as the EF goes, the Germans pounded their chests, rightfully so as a DACT with no more than theoretic tactics existed for F-22 vs 4.5 highly maneuverable opponents. Since then, the Germans have come out and said the two plane were equal in WVR.

The wing Commander of the RAF's X1 squadron who flew both with and against the Raptor at Langley earlier this year flat out raved about the maneuverability of the Raptor. I'd guess definite improvements to the F-22 tactics.

Finally and perhaps the most important point is the Raptor is part of a composite of various planes and capabilities. When the remote targeting, data sharing of the U.S. strike packages are factored in, and continued upgrades, not only will the F-22 and the U.S. dominate, it will be at a level that hasn't been achieved by one country ever before.

Originally posted by nwtrucker
reply to post by Ribox12

 

Ribox12, first the Rafale has never defeated the F-22 BVR or WVR.

Second, the Grippen has never trained or flown against a Raptor. ( Red Flag is a DACT event and if there was contact it wouldn't reflect aircraft capabilities.)

One more point, having followed the Raptor as a fan, not an expert, for the fifteen years that the raptor has flown, I know of NO defeats of the Raptor BVR.
All Rafale, Typhoon, T-37 and F-18-who broke DACT rules- were WVR.

The Rafale went up against the F-22 in WVR last year or so.

Sorry about the Gripen one, your right the Gripen never went up to face the Raptor in a exercise.

Exactly, the Raptor has never been beaten in BVR while the Eurofighter and Raptor are close in the BVR engagment. Also how exactly do the aircraft listed broke the rules in a WVR exercise? They've all been trained well, but there's tactics for maneuvering to get the target and score.

DACT training isn't realistic, but it does help you train if ever a WVR threat or engagment comes.

reply to post by Ribox12


Several of the "kills" came when the attacking aircraft broke the ROE. One of the Hornet shots came when the Hornet was about half the distance required, riding the ragged edge of controlled flight. At least two came when the attacker regenerated after being killed, and the AWACS didn't warn the Raptor pilot in time. We don't know the ROE or any details for the others.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Ok thanks

reply to post by Ribox12


These exercises mean almost nothing, except for teaching pilots how to work together. There are several systems the military will only be let used in the simulator, or when flying with others of the same type. Just look at the F-15. Something like 108-0 in real air combat, but lost a lot in DACT.