The Squatting Man

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Devino
I think the error would be to comment on material one has not yet read.

So, you've read all the anthropological material written about rock carvings and artwork from around the world?

Harte

Of coarse not. My questions pertain to the work Anthony Peratt has done. I have read just about everything I could get my hands on by this man and material done by other physicists pertaining to plasma and astronomy. The paper I have linked, and the original topic of this thread, have piqued my interest in petroglyphs.

There is a lot of material from different fields of science that seems to suggest a cataclysmic event took place on Earth in the relatively recent past and this event might have been recorded by eyewitnesses. I find this to be a fantastic subject (more fantasy than science IMHO) yet I can't help but wonder if there is a connection.

originally posted by: Devino

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Devino
I think the error would be to comment on material one has not yet read.

So, you've read all the anthropological material written about rock carvings and artwork from around the world?

Harte

Of coarse not.

Then your comments on that subject are, by your own assertion, erroneously made.

Harte

originally posted by: Devino
a reply to: Byrd
The history of Kristian Birkeland’s work is very interesting in my opinion. He formed a theory of the aurora borealis being an interaction with the Sun and was ridiculed for it. Satellites eventually proved him correct.

I don't doubt that he's a superb physicist.

My question has to do with the glyphs thought to be 4000+ years old. Who made these? There are massive amounts of glyphs just in the American southwest and I understand that dating of them is a problem. In your study have you found any way of confirming dates? Could the styles be an indication of age or era?

Yes, styles indicate age AND tribal affiliation. Tribal styles also change over time, and that's shown in the symbology in the petroglyphs. Different sites have different purposes, and the styles and subject vary by location.

The few petroglyphs I have actually visited showed very odd shaped stick figures with bazaar squiggly lines coming out of their hands and odd shaped heads sometimes resembling a duck. I took a few pictures but they did not turn out well.

Where were these?

Many glyphs have a cluster of odd shaped people and animal looking things surrounded by unrecognizable shapes. It’s hard to put these into any context, in my opinion, that’s why I’m asking.

They become more understandable when you look at the tribe's traditional art and how symbols are grouped and displayed.

I understand if you aren’t interested in reading Peratt’s work on this subject but I would love to learn what you think of it. The first PDF, linked below, pertains to glyphs, Peratt’s comparison to plasma discharges and his general theory. The second has more to do with location and orientation. I’ll link the first in the hopes you might want to read it. Thanks for your time Byrd.

I did read it.... the part about plasma physics is great, the anthropology is Beyond Abysmal. He's mixing individual icons without learning what the symbols are and mixing symbols from many different times and cultures. The drawings are all of people, not plasma. The "petroglyph panel" he shows (figure 14) has three distinct styles that I'm aware of - and possibly a fourth. I'm not as familiar with Arizona petroglyphs. The "squatter" with the dot(s) is very clearly a woman... if you look, you can see the labial folds between the legs. Peratt does not acknowledge this, and indeed dismisses the rest of the material found beside these images.

He speculates wildly -- we have not seen these plasma patterns in nature, in spite of centuries of recorded observations of plasma phenomena such as lightning and auroras. The ones he shows were created in labs, with a lot of equipment and high magnetic fields. His "plasma patterns" are not found at sites associated with astronomical observation such as the Chumash recording of the Crab supernova. He has not explained why these "Plasma patterns" appear in hunting scenes and are drawn with atl-atls or are associated with things like Bighorn Sheep. He does not explain why they'd place plasma patterns in the middle of a legend about a boy who was stolen by a giant dog demon (Kapua in Hawaii)

originally posted by: Byrd
Yes, styles indicate age AND tribal affiliation. Tribal styles also change over time, and that's shown in the symbology in the petroglyphs. Different sites have different purposes, and the styles and subject vary by location.

Nice, perhaps this is the direction I’ll go next, learning what I can about the people who carved them. This seems difficult without proper dating though.

originally posted by: Devino
The few petroglyphs I have actually visited showed very odd shaped stick figures with bazaar squiggly lines coming out of their hands and odd shaped heads sometimes resembling a duck. I took a few pictures but they did not turn out well.

originally posted by: Byrd
Where were these?

Death Valley, the Grand Canyon and Mesa Verde. I am having a terrible time uploading images, I think I got it now.
These are from Death Valley.

The Grand Canyon Desert View Watchtower has several very nice glyph replicas. They claim to be accurate replications and I do have several pictures yet they are easy enough to find online.
Most of the Mesa Verde trails were closed due to snow so the few glyphs we saw were to far away to get pictures of.
We are planning a trip to the Columbia river this spring for some glyph spotting.
Horsethief Butte

They become more understandable when you look at the tribe's traditional art and how symbols are grouped and displayed.

I hope so.

I did read it....

Thank you, I couldn't ask for more.

He's mixing individual icons without learning what the symbols are and mixing symbols from many different times and cultures.

Yes and I agree that this is a fail on his part. I would hope the rest of his work might spark some interest among those who work on the anthropological side.

The drawings are all of people, not plasma

I assume you’re referring to the squatting man and if so I get your point. However there are many other rock art styles that appear to not resemble people or animals in any way.

we have not seen these plasma patterns in nature, in spite of centuries of recorded observations of plasma phenomena such as lightning and auroras.

I think it would be in error for us to assume that since no one has recently recorded such theoretical global plasma discharges that they therefore do not exist. He explains quite extensively how phenomena would occur in the Earth’s aurorae if the Sun’s energy output were to increase one to two orders of magnitude. The point of his work suggests that such an event did occur and it was recorded by witnesses in such rock art as described. I understand that this is a point of contention and I have a lot to learn. I thank you for your input.

originally posted by: Devino
Death Valley, the Grand Canyon and Mesa Verde. I am having a terrible time uploading images, I think I got it now.
These are from Death Valley.

Sweet! Yes, I could see those!

We are planning a trip to the Columbia river this spring for some glyph spotting.

Oh, I want to come, too!!!

Have you read this site? (it's by a rock art researcher with 30+ years experience)

What's interesting about this site is that you can clearly see some of the Northwest (Tlingit, Salish) influences in the rock art in the area. You might also findKeyser's book on the rock art of the area to be useful

He's mixing individual icons without learning what the symbols are and mixing symbols from many different times and cultures.

Yes and I agree that this is a fail on his part. I would hope the rest of his work might spark some interest among those who work on the anthropological side.

As poorly done as it is and with as poor an understanding of the culture and images as he displays, I wouldn't count on it. I think it will be used as "evidence" by the "Electric Universe" people and soundly ignored because of its bad science by others.

The drawings are all of people, not plasma

I assume you’re referring to the squatting man and if so I get your point. However there are many other rock art styles that appear to not resemble people or animals in any way.

Indeed. Depending on where they are and who made them, some of the symbols are known (Tlaloc, for instance) while others are open to interpretation. The latter produce a lot of controversy.

we have not seen these plasma patterns in nature, in spite of centuries of recorded observations of plasma phenomena such as lightning and auroras.

I think it would be in error for us to assume that since no one has recently recorded such theoretical global plasma discharges that they therefore do not exist. He explains quite extensively how phenomena would occur in the Earth’s aurorae if the Sun’s energy output were to increase one to two orders of magnitude.

I think he also forgot to mention that Earth would fry. An "order of magnitude" means a tenfold increase over base. 10 to 20 times the sun's output would be.... well... I suppose like moving the Earth to the neighborhood of the orbit of Mercury in terms of radiation and so forth. If that kind of increase happened, there would be no humans left to record the event.

He also forgot to mention that there'd have to be huge local magnetic fields many times the strength of Earth's magnetic field.

I find this difficult to swallow.

originally posted by: Byrd
Have you read this site? (it's by a rock art researcher with 30+ years experience)

I have now. The Pacific Northwest is an amazing place.

The acquisition of supernatural power by shamans was related to the adolescent vision quest; the spirits so obtained were all shamanistic, separated by a difference of degree, rather than of kind (with some exceptions as noted below).

The execution of rock art for "hunting magic" and weather control are closely related to the above, more general acquisition and use of shamanic power. Hill and Hill (1974) and Lundy (1974) also note examples of records of important events, although these events occurred during historic times.

Rock art appears to be an expression of a spiritual connection with the environment. I imagine these people were influenced by older glyphs and stories and this influence has evolved over time. I have felt a spiritual connection with the same environment and now seeing petroglyphs in this manner I feel a spiritual connection to those who carved them. I cannot describe this feeling. Thank you for that, now I’m hooked!

I find myself wondering what the original cause was to influence the first ones to start carving glyphs and what the impetus behind the original myths were.

Researchers have also noted ethnographic sources indicating that some rock art was made (or at least used) as territorial markers.

Would you consider this the start of a written language perhaps comparable to Maya glyphs?

As poorly done as it is and with as poor an understanding of the culture and images as he displays, I wouldn't count on it. I think it will be used as "evidence" by the "Electric Universe" people and soundly ignored because of its bad science by others.

This is unfortunate in my opinion. His work has had an influence on me.

I think he also forgot to mention that Earth would fry. An "order of magnitude" means a tenfold increase over base.

Yes, this seems to be the consensus yet in my opinion it is speculation and bad science which is the main reason I started reading what I could find on plasma physics.

There appears to be a rather poor understanding of the electromagnetic interaction between the Sun and Earth. Kristian Birkeland stated over 100 years ago, "currents there [in the aurora] are imagined as having come into existence mainly as a secondary effect of the electric corpuscles from the sun drawn in out of space." He was ridiculed by Sydney Chapman and his theory was ignored in favor of Chapman’s mathematical model. It wasn’t until 1963 that a U.S. Navy satellite was sent into orbit and measured these “electric corpuscles”, or Birkeland currents, proving Birkeland’s theory correct.

Today I cannot find a reputable site that describes this Sun-Earth electric circuit. Instead I read about the “solar wind”, “magnetic reconnection” and “auroral electrojets”. It seems Birkeland’s theory is still being ignored. How do these electric currents coming from the Sun effect the Earth’s magnetic field? Wouldn’t an increase in electric current cause an increase in the magnetic field? This is the physics of Birkeland currents, an increase in the electric current shows a relative increase in the magnetic field. How would this be different in the magnetosphere?

P.S. I just ordered the book you recommended.

a reply to: Devino

It seems Birkeland’s theory is still being ignored.

Not at all. In fact he was exactly correct. Don't you think electrons and protons could be considered electric "corpuscles", since they each carry a charge? I'm sure you're aware that the solar wind is composed of those particles, he was.

In 1916, Norwegian researcher Kristian Birkeland was probably the first person to successfully predict that in the Solar Wind, “From a physical point of view it is most probable that solar rays are neither exclusively negative nor positive rays, but of both kinds”; in other words, the Solar Wind consists of both negative electrons and positive ions.

cambridgeforecast.wordpress.com...

How do these electric currents coming from the Sun effect the Earth’s magnetic field?

They are not really electrical currents. Since the solar wind is composed of both positive and negative particles flowing from the Sun there is no net charge. This has been demonstrated by sampling the Solar wind. It is neutral, as Birkeland predicted. No electrical current from the Sun to the Earth. But CMEs do carry bits of the Suns magnetic field with them and when those (very weak) remnants encounter the magnetosphere they cause it to wiggle. That's what gives us geomagnetic storms. Which, unless you have long conductors spread out over the countryside, don't have much of any effect on the surface.

Wouldn’t an increase in electric current cause an increase in the magnetic field? This is the physics of Birkeland currents, an increase in the electric current shows a relative increase in the magnetic field.

No current. As Birkeland himself understood. Just localized interactions between solar particles (with no net charge) and Earth's magnetic field.

originally posted by: Devino
Rock art appears to be an expression of a spiritual connection with the environment.

SOME of it is, yes. And some of it (usually not shown on sites) is clearly sexual graffiti and other types of graffiti. There's some classic examples (site escapes me) of sexual themed art done by boys who were on lookout duty.

Some of it is an identity/place marker: "I was here" or "my family was here." Some record history, but in many places a rock face is actually a multicultural thing... think of wandering bands and gangs coming in, seeing that the rock was already "tagged" and adding their own tags/modifying it, etc, etc.

For me, the classic example is the White Shaman site where the actual meaning of the first images is overlaid by older images and a more modern group combines some of those images and their own symbols and ties it all with the Peyote Deer Hunt. Most people try to evaluate it as a single site, but there are actually three or more stories told there.

I imagine these people were influenced by older glyphs and stories and this influence has evolved over time. I have felt a spiritual connection with the same environment and now seeing petroglyphs in this manner I feel a spiritual connection to those who carved them. I cannot describe this feeling. Thank you for that, now I’m hooked!

(cue Evyl Cackle!)

The "tuning in to the environment is actually valuable in looking at rock art, because as you "sink into" the landscape and get a feeling for the place, the art tends to "emerge" and you notice pieces and things that you had not seen when you first walked in. I always give thanks to the spirits of the place (even though I am a scientist) and a small libation of water if it's a desert place. And chance/the gods/synchronicity brings me interesting things for my act of thanks. Once the "thanks of synchronicity" was a bush that tapped on a fallen signpost showing me a road that was a shortcut back to the highway.

I find myself wondering what the original cause was to influence the first ones to start carving glyphs and what the impetus behind the original myths were.

I suspect not myth, but the pleasure of art -- I can make a mark -- look, I can make the mark look like something -- look! Here we are - stick figure family on the back of a car. I think myth and symbol came later; expression of self and family came first.

Researchers have also noted ethnographic sources indicating that some rock art was made (or at least used) as territorial markers.

Would you consider this the start of a written language perhaps comparable to Maya glyphs?

No. Written language seems to start not with freeform symbols, but with symbols of counting and symbols of ownership ("chop marks")

I think he also forgot to mention that Earth would fry. An "order of magnitude" means a tenfold increase over base.

Yes, this seems to be the consensus yet in my opinion it is speculation and bad science which is the main reason I started reading what I could find on plasma physics.

He is the one who says "order of magnitude" ...which means ten times... and a sun ten times as powerful would be like moving Earth close to the orbit of Mercury. You can do the math on this, yourself.

Today I cannot find a reputable site that describes this Sun-Earth electric circuit.

With good reason.

P.S. I just ordered the book you recommended.

I hope you enjoy it!

originally posted by: Phage
Don't you think electrons and protons could be considered electric "corpuscles", since they each carry a charge?

If you consider the solar wind to be a net charge of zero then no. I would think an “electric corpuscle” would carry a net charge having charge separation.

originally posted by: Devino
How do these electric currents coming from the Sun effect the Earth’s magnetic field?

originally posted by: Phage
They are not really electrical currents. Since the solar wind is composed of both positive and negative particles flowing from the Sun there is no net charge.

As far as I understand it a Birkeland current is a self-organizing double layer that allows charges to flow creating an electric current and a magnetic field. Satellites have measured these currents above Earth’s poles as having 100,000-1 million amps.

No electrical current from the Sun to the Earth

Okay, so no closed circuit as I was describing yet solar electric currents do exist. Your linked source describes it as a “heliospheric current sheet”.

Since the solar wind is a plasma, it has the characteristics of a plasma, rather than a simple gas. For example, it is highly electrically conductive so that magnetic field lines from the Sun are carried along with the wind.
…
These two magnetic domains are separated by a two current sheet (an electric current that is confined to a curved plane). This heliospheric current sheet has a similar shape to a twirled ballerina skirt,

Source

originally posted by: Devino
Wouldn’t an increase in electric current cause an increase in the magnetic field?

No current. As Birkeland himself understood. Just localized interactions between solar particles (with no net charge) and Earth's magnetic field.

So Birkeland currents that have been measured above Earth’s poles carry no charge? What then are these satellites measuring?

a reply to: Devino

So Birkeland currents that have been measured above Earth’s poles carry no charge?

I didn't say that. I said that the solar wind carries no net charge and there is no electrical current between the Sun and the Earth.

What then are these satellites measuring?

The movement of electrons. Charged particles which are affected by Earth's magnetic field.

originally posted by: Byrd
I always give thanks to the spirits of the place (even though I am a scientist)

Most scientists I personally know are spiritual or superstitious, although they won’t outright admit it. It’s funny to hear about some of the rituals they do in the hopes to help produce a positive result on a test that keeps failing. It might be more common than we may think.

Would you consider this the start of a written language perhaps comparable to Maya glyphs?

No. Written language seems to start not with freeform symbols, but with symbols of counting and symbols of ownership ("chop marks")

Interesting and a little depressing in a way. So written language comes from the desire to claim ownership over material things and over other people? Native American culture seems to be without any such claim. After all how could one claim to own the sky, mountains or rivers?

He is the one who says "order of magnitude" ...which means ten times... and a sun ten times as powerful would be like moving Earth close to the orbit of Mercury. You can do the math on this, yourself.

My thought here was how much effect the Sun’s solar wind has on Earth’s magnetic field. Would an increase in one create an increase in the other?

a reply to: Devino

My thought here was how much effect the Sun’s solar wind has on Earth’s magnetic field. Would an increase in one create an increase in the other?

You would first have to explain what you mean by an increase in the Solar wind. Speed? Density?

But there are other factors which come into play, in particular the magnetic orientation of the Solar wind. But any such increase doesn't not affect the entire magnetic field (which originates in Earth's core).

When a CME (a transient increase in the solar wind, both speed and density) encounters Earth's magnetic field it does cause fluctuations, but those fluctuations occur at high latitudes and mostly on the night side of the planet. They are localized. They are also not all that intense. A severe geomagnetic storm (the result of an extreme CME) might cause fluctuations of 4800 nt. That is 4.8 µT, or about 7% of the Earth's field at its strongest. In other words, its a small fluctuation in a very small force.

originally posted by: Devino

originally posted by: Byrd
I always give thanks to the spirits of the place (even though I am a scientist)

Most scientists I personally know are spiritual or superstitious, although they won’t outright admit it. It’s funny to hear about some of the rituals they do in the hopes to help produce a positive result on a test that keeps failing. It might be more common than we may think.

There are actually some good reasons to have a personal "luck" ritual... a discussion for another place, I think.

Interesting and a little depressing in a way. So written language comes from the desire to claim ownership over material things and over other people? Native American culture seems to be without any such claim. After all how could one claim to own the sky, mountains or rivers?

Native Americans claimed sacred sites, fishing rights, hunting areas, parental/tribal affiliations (for example, just ask any Tlingit who they are...and be prepared for a long answer detailing kinship affiliations) warrior and dance societies, etc.

My thought here was how much effect the Sun’s solar wind has on Earth’s magnetic field. Would an increase in one create an increase in the other?

No. The Earth's magnetic field is a product of its hot iron core.

An analogy would be if you have two magnets - one of those strong ones that comes in hard-to-pry-apart stacks sitting a foot away from one of those plastic-based ones you put on refrigerators. Stacking nine more magnets on top of the first one (an order of magnitude (a pun but a point) larger than one magnet) will not change anything about the refrigerator magnet that's sitting a foot away from the ten magnets. And if you suspend them in the air, there won't be any electrical current flowing between them.

By the way, that's something you can test out at home.

originally posted by: Phage
You would first have to explain what you mean by an increase in the Solar wind. Speed? Density?

I was referring to a statement made by Anthony Peratt in this paper.

In the case of a strong aurora involving many tens of megaamperes of current, most of the funnel would be visible in light emission and the individual filaments and vortices strongly visible. In a narrow field-of-view, the light-emitting filaments would appear as “dots” or “elongated dots” and filamentary strands. This geometry would predominate if the charged particle outflow from the sun were to increase an order of magnitude or more for an appreciable length of time.1 In addition, portions of the magnetosphere and its tail would also be visible

The increase would be in the amount of charged particles in the solar plasma so I would think that means density and velocity. Appreciable length of time means centuries to millennia. The question was would such an event be lethal to life on Earth or would an increase in the “charged particle outflow” cause the Earth’s magnetic field to strengthen and protect the surface.

originally posted by: Byrd
No. The Earth's magnetic field is a product of its hot iron core.
An analogy would be if you have two magnets…

I don’t think the Earth’s magnetic field could accurately be compared to a permanent magnet. The geodynamo theory seems a bit more complicated and is not fully understood. My question originally was based on the effects of electromagnetic induction. Is electric current induced by Earth’s motion through the Sun’s magnetic field and does this effect the Earth’s magnetic field? Would an increase in one cause an increase in the other?

wrong thread

Those "squatting" figures go all the way back to Gobelki Tepe and are cosmic female birth symbols. Squatting to give birth to the universe.

a reply to: Blue Shift

That's a nice way of putting it. Except all life in the universe are characterized as relatively microscopic beings feeding off the 'afterbirth' more than life is able to be personified as a nurtured child. We can't forget our roots, having been sharted into existence...