Born of the flesh VS Born of the spirit

Originally posted by deadeyedick
I think that if one chooses sides then they have already lost the battle.

Well... I know you're the religious type...

Revelation disagrees with you... Just so you know...

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Not to mention plenty of other verses...

reply to post by Akragon

Which side compels you to fight?

Which side do you choose?

I choose to answer these questions in reverse order.

I choose to remain a complex individual amongst complex individuals.

I guess I'll have to back up a bit to address sides question.

The internal struggle of the self verses the spirit...

Its not a war of religion... its a war of the spirit vs the flesh... the physical world vs the immaterial

The physical and numinous are not at odds. They coexist.

The realization of the spirit, is the realization that the individual is part of the greater whole. Virtue is to recognize the legitimate boundary of individual need versus shared need and act according to balance. The restoration of balance compels me to fight.

It seems to me that this thread is actually about greed. Perhaps greed is sociopathy. Greed is sometimes the seeking and "hoarding" of spiritual "property", in which case it's spirit vs spirit warfare, in my opinion.

reply to post by pthena

The physical and numinous are not at odds.

Wouldn't a statement like "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" mean the flesh and the spirit are at odds?

reply to post by Akragon

That's one of those sayings that I have a hard time placing in context. To me (Matt 26:41) seems to mean:
"I understand Peter, that you may want to be praying that you not enter temptation, but sleep seems more important to you at the moment." I don't really get it in its context.

However, it is a much used phrase which I even sometimes use, such as, "I really have this great idea for a thread, but if I post it, I'll have to stay up another 3 hours or so to keep up with the comments, and I really don't think I have it in me at the moment, I feel like I should have gone to bed 2 hours ago."

It isn't always the physical that is the limiting factor, the emotional is quite often the limiting factor. The emotional, I take as physical and spiritual. We have limits. In emergencies we borrow from our own future well being in order to do the necessary, we pay later. We cannot function for long in a steady emergency mode. We would burn out.

reply to post by Akragon

ALL of us, every single one of us are born of the flesh and the spirit... Yet through out ones life, through our experiences we freely choose to accept or deny the spirit within...

We need to be constantly reborn through an external spirit that we can't see, which is why it is called a spirit.
It is supposed to give us the ability to have a view of the world that is beyond what we experience internally, to consider other people besides ourselves.

Wonderful thread. It seems that the whole structure of this world is to keep people dancing on the treadmill, or terribly overburdened, angry and divided, yet always chasing material gain, to keep them from waking up, from touching base with their inner spirit.

Just today, my youngest was going to sleep, and he is often afraid of everything, that he insists on watching, defying often. But at this point, I shared what I was reading, and it was a miracle save, where just before a crash, he was pulled away, and was uninjured. But no one was there. I told him that there is nothing to fear for our Creator/Guides/Angels and Family, even our own soul, protects us, is in charge, though that man could have gone home at that moment. I said we're allotted so many days, to work on our faults or flaws, or improve something, even being able to reach others, even relationship or communication skills, and after this hard part is over, this place where the growth occurs, we don't have the same ability to grow, or at least as much, after we leave, as here. This is where the greatest growth potential is, places like this. So we need to treat each day as a gift and look for the lessons in it, to see where we need healing and to turn them around. Not to fear, for the Angels/Guides/Creator is above all the circumstances, only what is allowed can occur.

Actually forcing a choice between one of two things on people
sure seems to be of the flesh, as you call it, to me. Why cant
we all just be people with differences and leave it at that,
one does not have to be superior to the other, its all about ego
as usual, just like every other religion you wish to defame
those who chose a path different than yours, i do not believe
in spirituality yet i have a very strong sense of empathy, that
seems to fly in the face of your claims......

This kind of thing is funny because its similar to a job title
that comes with no benefit to the employee at all, like being
promoted to executive assistant from just plain assistant, it
didn't come with a raise, no extra responsibility or authority
just the title, does that change the person? not really, it may
change the attitude for whatever reason but as everything
in this world its simply relative to the observer.

I guess in short, just because you claim a title of say spiritualist
does not therefore give you any less potential for violence than
any other title would, humans decide for themselves what their
morality will be, we do not need a title to dictate it anymore than
we need a religion to dictate it.

Originally posted by bloodreviara
Actually forcing a choice between one of two things on people
sure seems to be of the flesh, as you call it, to me. Why cant
we all just be people with differences and leave it at that,
one does not have to be superior to the other, its all about ego
as usual, just like every other religion you wish to defame
those who chose a path different than yours, i do not believe
in spirituality yet i have a very strong sense of empathy, that
seems to fly in the face of your claims......

This kind of thing is funny because its similar to a job title
that comes with no benefit to the employee at all, like being
promoted to executive assistant from just plain assistant, it
didn't come with a raise, no extra responsibility or authority
just the title, does that change the person? not really, it may
change the attitude for whatever reason but as everything
in this world its simply relative to the observer.

I guess in short, just because you claim a title of say spiritualist
does not therefore give you any less potential for violence than
any other title would, humans decide for themselves what their
morality will be, we do not need a title to dictate it anymore than
we need a religion to dictate it.

I do not and will not force "change" on anyone... free will is also a gift which I would deny no one...

And I do not choose or need any label for myself either... I AM what I AM...

The only difference between myself and some others is...

I know who i am...

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives lifed because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because ofe his Spirit who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.f And by him we cry, “Abba Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Romans 8:5-16 

-----
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Galatians 5:19-26

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I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:1-2

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And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: 

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2:1-3 

OP, you appear to have taken truth and twisted it to suit your own spirit.  By using the essence and foundation of Jesus Christ, the very Truth of God, in such an untruthful manner, I am compelled to present the issue in truthfulness. You are advocating nothing new, but rather the age old paganism of  "going within"spun from biblical scripture. The fact that you declare it leads to a relationship with animals and nature and not with your Creator is evidence that you have only found the spirit of disobedience which exalts and glorifies self and the created instead of your Creator and God. The fact that you say most will take a "neutral stance" on most everything shows that this spirit does not lead you to choose and walk righteously as did Jesus Christ. The works of the flesh - sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like - are the very things that the Spirit of God, if He resides within you, will lead you to conquer in your flesh. These things are of the world, not of the Kingdom of God. Look at each of them and see how they only lead to misery and death for others, and yet, why the love of them now pervades our society. It is simply how that old serpent operates - appeals to the flesh of man. The mind governed by the flesh is death. Yet somehow you believe that your answer is going within the mind...which is only going to find the adamic nature that passed to you....hence, you MUST be born again. Listening to your own spirit instead of the spirit of God is placing your own will above that of God's will. The five "I wills"

Dear Akragon, i tried to reply to your post. But when i click on reply the message "only staff of ats can reply" pops up. I am a bit confused!

reply to post by kalluk

I think you have to do 20 posts before you can have full functionality.

That's why it helps to reply as much as possible to posts in your intro thread. Send each person in your intro a thank you post or something to get your post count up.

reply to post by Akragon


nicely done!

reply to post by WhoKnows100


You seem to be one of the code the matrix watchdogs for the controllers either knowingly or simply by the rigid programming.

The early Christians were indeed gnostics, the Church hunted them down and murdered them to hold the power in this realm. They don't want people waking up. Not going to address whether Christ Yeshua himself was real, in an entire bible that is metaphoric and if taken fundamentally as they direct the people to do, turns Love into its opposite, so Jesus told them who their father was, not God.

Love doesnt switch hats, and depopulate villages for the so called Is Ra El ites to steal. Doesnt order smitings and murders. Baal might do that, but not Goodness/Love.

You can't read them fundamentally. However, Christ may indeed have come here as a Higher Up to help people.

Or He could be a metaphor for what we're supposed to do.

However, true Christianity is walking the walk, going within, service to others, forgive, help those in need, especially the dark side or prodigal son, visit the sick and those in prison, and wake up the inner eye. If thine be single. Or Genesis 32 30, the city to meet God in, the penial!

reply to post by Akragon



I have struggled countless times trying to put together a coherent description of what makes me so different from so many other people. I was one of those who grew up entertaining the idea that I was an alien somehow incarnated into a human body and stuck on this planet of people that I absolutely cannot relate to, understand or comprehend for a very good portion of the time. It's not that I hate people, I just do not understand how people can be so mean and cruel and cold to others that have done nothing to them, especially nothing to generate such intense hate or violent thoughts, and especially animals that are trusting or dependent on humans to care for them.

Now that I'm an adult, I spend the majority of my time away from other humans, excpet for work or other times that require it. I am far more comfortable with my pets and in my house, my own little world as it were. :-) And of course I now realize the whole "alien stuck in this world" thoughts when I was kid were an innate defense mechanism to help deal with the trauma of cruel and mean people. Eventually in college I met friends that I connected with who felt the same, and will always feel a kindred connection with no matter how speed out we now are. And places like ATS have helped me realize I could very well be an alien or something else that did indeed choose to come to world to experience it, perhaps to find others, learn, or something else :-) I say that jokingly, but there are some days, when horrific things are going on in the world, or sometimes just an unfiltered look at the way the world and nature works (ie animals and plants have to die to feed the living, nature is biased against "nice" or "sensitive" for pretty much every instance other than caring for the young or cooperative survival, and can indeed often be significant marks against survival! ) that I choose to entertain the idea could be real in the hopes that something better does exist somewhere. I'm sure a pshrink would have a field day, but personally I think most people are more crazy than I could ever be, so I'm content with being a kind hearted wacko. :-)

But before I typed all this self love, the whole purpose of me posting was to simply congratulate you on articulating a concise and easy to understand description of how often the population that I encounter seems to be. Certainly not everyone is bad, and the way the world works you pretty much have to be horrible sometimes in someways in order to survive, but at times it can feel overwhelming. I certainly don't want to come off as being judgemental of others and thinking I am the definitive word on what is right wrong and mean, not at all and my usual encounter is simply to feel overwhelmed and confused and just completely not understanding or "getting" how people are rather than some self-appointed decider of who is better than others. Instead I just feel like a total outcast, without any desire to fit in.

I do find that IF you can have a true conversation with someone - without them worrying that someone will hear them or that you are trying to play them for some ulterior purpose - that many people do feel closer to how I do than I'd normally think possible. But then there are those who for whatever reason look at me like I'm a complete nut job to ever even consider that animals have feelings, are worth more than dinner or fur, that insects are worth catching in a cup and set free outside than crushing them to death, or that people of different races or idealogies are the same species or deserve any compassion or consideration, much less believing them equal as opposed or those who grudgingly just "treat them" as equals if necessary.

As such, its little surprise to me that if aliens are truly peaceful and compassionate its no wonder they don't bother communicating (if they don't) for humanity in its current mass generalizations don't even know they have any growing to do, and as such aren't anyway near identifying the nightmares that exist that must be changed for everyone and everything to be happy.

reply to post by pthena

That's one of those sayings that I have a hard time placing in context. To me (Matt 26:41) seems to mean:
"I understand Peter, that you may want to be praying that you not enter temptation, but sleep seems more important to you at the moment." I don't really get it in its context.

its one of the few places you will find where Jesus is literally terrified at what is to come... He asks them to bare witness to his prayers... And those prayers were asking the Father to "take this come from me"

Jesus did not want to die... but as he found out, it was meant to be... and nothing could stop it.

You might also remember Matthew 18... Where two or more are gathered... relating to what he was asking of them... bearing witness to his plea to the Father... Perhaps IF they stayed awake, things might have been different for him... but they could not stay awake for him... Likely also caused by God as well

However, it is a much used phrase which I even sometimes use, such as, "I really have this great idea for a thread, but if I post it, I'll have to stay up another 3 hours or so to keep up with the comments, and I really don't think I have it in me at the moment, I feel like I should have gone to bed 2 hours ago."

I do wish you would write this thread you're talking about... especially IF its about Jesus... since it is by far my favorite topic... I struggled to participate in your previous thread to no avail, I just couldn't find an entrance...

It isn't always the physical that is the limiting factor, the emotional is quite often the limiting factor. The emotional, I take as physical and spiritual. We have limits. In emergencies we borrow from our own future well being in order to do the necessary, we pay later. We cannot function for long in a steady emergency mode. We would burn out.

Absolutely... the physical and the spiritual are completely entwined... to the point where most people will never see the separation... or even distinguish between the two... We must rely on what is unseen to reveal the unseen, meaning... the emotions.

Our emotions tie us to the spiritual... and understanding them can help distinguish the separation.

Originally posted by NewtonDKC
reply to post by Akragon

 

I have struggled countless times trying to put together a coherent description of what makes me so different from so many other people. I was one of those who grew up entertaining the idea that I was an alien somehow incarnated into a human body and stuck on this planet of people that I absolutely cannot relate to, understand or comprehend for a very good portion of the time. It's not that I hate people, I just do not understand how people can be so mean and cruel and cold to others that have done nothing to them, especially nothing to generate such intense hate or violent thoughts, and especially animals that are trusting or dependent on humans to care for them.

Now that I'm an adult, I spend the majority of my time away from other humans, excpet for work or other times that require it. I am far more comfortable with my pets and in my house, my own little world as it were. :-) And of course I now realize the whole "alien stuck in this world" thoughts when I was kid were an innate defense mechanism to help deal with the trauma of cruel and mean people. Eventually in college I met friends that I connected with who felt the same, and will always feel a kindred connection with no matter how speed out we now are. And places like ATS have helped me realize I could very well be an alien or something else that did indeed choose to come to world to experience it, perhaps to find others, learn, or something else :-) I say that jokingly, but there are some days, when horrific things are going on in the world, or sometimes just an unfiltered look at the way the world and nature works (ie animals and plants have to die to feed the living, nature is biased against "nice" or "sensitive" for pretty much every instance other than caring for the young or cooperative survival, and can indeed often be significant marks against survival! ) that I choose to entertain the idea could be real in the hopes that something better does exist somewhere. I'm sure a pshrink would have a field day, but personally I think most people are more crazy than I could ever be, so I'm content with being a kind hearted wacko. :-)

But before I typed all this self love, the whole purpose of me posting was to simply congratulate you on articulating a concise and easy to understand description of how often the population that I encounter seems to be. Certainly not everyone is bad, and the way the world works you pretty much have to be horrible sometimes in someways in order to survive, but at times it can feel overwhelming. I certainly don't want to come off as being judgemental of others and thinking I am the definitive word on what is right wrong and mean, not at all and my usual encounter is simply to feel overwhelmed and confused and just completely not understanding or "getting" how people are rather than some self-appointed decider of who is better than others. Instead I just feel like a total outcast, without any desire to fit in.

I do find that IF you can have a true conversation with someone - without them worrying that someone will hear them or that you are trying to play them for some ulterior purpose - that many people do feel closer to how I do than I'd normally think possible. But then there are those who for whatever reason look at me like I'm a complete nut job to ever even consider that animals have feelings, are worth more than dinner or fur, that insects are worth catching in a cup and set free outside than crushing them to death, or that people of different races or idealogies are the same species or deserve any compassion or consideration, much less believing them equal as opposed or those who grudgingly just "treat them" as equals if necessary.

As such, its little surprise to me that if aliens are truly peaceful and compassionate its no wonder they don't bother communicating (if they don't) for humanity in its current mass generalizations don't even know they have any growing to do, and as such aren't anyway near identifying the nightmares that exist that must be changed for everyone and everything to be happy.

Well... I don't know much about this "alien" thing a lot of people talk about... Personally I don't believe Aliens are among us... Nor are there Hybrids of our species and theirs.

Perhaps I may have written something that might help you a bit though....

One was already linked... Who are you Part 4... Who am I?

Read "the precise method for Liberation" over a few times... Its not an easy read but it makes a lot of sense...

And Who are you? Part 1 which deals with the idea of "old souls"...

Something I do personally believe

Originally posted by Akragon
There are two types of people in this world... Those that are born of the flesh, and those that are born of the spirit... .

These two factions of the human condition are at war with one another... Its a war that has lasted for millennia...

The internal struggle of the self verses the spirit...

edit on 17-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Could you clear up a few questions for me please lovely mischievous cat?

Are we not all born of flesh and spirit?
If you say that there are only two types of people, are you saying we are predisposed at the body's birth & it is set to be of the body/flesh OR spirit ?
I thought the spirit was the SELF .
The self(spirit) is in all.

reply to post by BDBinc


Verily i say to you dear friend...

You must have missed the 5th line of the original post...

reply to post by Akragon


Dreadfully sorry - I did miss reading the 5th.

Namaste

Ok we'll you guys don't know me I'm new and it's nice in advance to meet you all. But to the OP, I just wanted to let you know I created a account after reading your post. I don't want to seem like a nut(tho I'm sure I'm sending those vibes) I agree with you 100%. It's so amazing I don't know you at all but you almost feel/know exactly how I'm feeling.
I feel a deep connection to nature and the planet/space...always feel like time is irrelevant and live very humble. I purpose this.

The center of our universe is forever expanding outward. What if life is older than we think.. What if life developed soon after Big Bang but we wouldn't recognize this life as we know life on earth. What if we do have a spirit and home is everything and everywhere.. But the physical life is a test?