Is the silver fox different than the Nighthawk? You be the judge...

reply to post by boomer135


Then some of his information has probably come from my relative who worked on the project. He worked on classified aircraft projects from the late 50s to mid 90s. He has a picture hanging in his office of the 2 planes side by side in a hangar during testing with the designers and air crew in for a photo op before a test flight. There is a ton of incorrect information surrounding the entire stealth program, so much so that even the people who worked on them don't entirely know what's accurate and what isn't. There were several airframes built during the same time period as the F-117A that "never existed besides on paper" but there were really flight capable prototypes of them built and tested. Next time I go have dinner with him I'll poke some more info out of him, it's been a few years since we talked about his days on classified projects so I can't recall all the details. He has some really cool pictures hanging in his office of formerly classified or "non-existent" aircraft, most of the ones considered non existent were non flying prototypes of airframes that ended up junked due to budgeting or problems that couldn't be overcome at the time. I don't know when I'll see him for sure until his birthday in August but when I do see him I'll pick his brain again. Black aircraft projects have been a favorite of mine since I was old enough to say what and why.

I am considerably more familiar with the Nighthawk (design, materials, construction, and history) than most people would expect, even those on this thread who lauded my knowledge. There is a surprising amount of information available if one knows where to look.

My main point was that the five preproduction YF-117A and 59 production F-117A airframes had identical planforms. The only exception to this was the use of the smaller tail fins during early flights of FSD-1 and the later experiment with leading edge extensions on the same airframe. Otherwise, the wing sweep remained unchanged throughout the program.

Having studied hundreds of photos, both official and unofficial (including some of my own), it is clear that viewing angle and optics have a lot to do with how the shape of the aircraft appears in the pictures. Often, several photos of the same airplane taken only minutes apart make it seem as if it has several completely different wing sweep angles. This is simply an optical illusion. The same is true for the appearance of the tail fins.

I wish I had a nickel for every time some one said to me, "I know (a friend, relative, trusted co-worker, etc.) who worked on the program, and I would believe them before I would believe you." This is the response I usually get after correcting some bit of misinformation. Even when I offer detailed proof, it is usually dismissed out of hand.

Without going into detail I will just mention a few things. There was one story about the F-117A that I received first-hand from at least one person who worked on the program, and second-hand through several other people. The man who told me said it as if he truly believed every word, and he really had no motive to lie. Unfortunately, it was completely false and there is substantial physical evidence to that effect. In another case a guy posted something about the F-117A that was false, and when I corrected him he said his source worked on the program and would not lie to him. I pointed out why the information was inaccurate but he refused to believe me. I have nothing to gain by being right. In fact, even taking part in the argument eats up a good deal of my precious time. I simply hate to see bad information being propagated on the Internet.

Shadowhawk, the one question I have is my pics of the silver one, the date on the back of the pic is April 2004. It was definitly the Palmdale one you talked about earlier, as we were flying out of Edwards in support of F-22 flight testing at the time. I think you said it was 2005 that it was sent to Palmdale for testing. Any chance that this is the same plane, except it was a year before you talked about, or could there be a mistake on the picture itself from the developing of them?

Article 835 was painted in the two-tone gray scheme in December 2003, and remained in those markings until its retirement in March 2007. Although it was assigned to the Dragon Test Team OT&E group at Holloman AFB, it was occasionally sent to Palmdale for maintenance and modification. This may be the airplane you saw.

Article 783 was painted gray for another series of tests at Palmdale in 2005.

It's so awesome to read Shadowhawk's posts..

Made my day!

Originally posted by EViLKoNCEPTz
You're correct they are different. The silver is slightly smaller has different wing and vertical stabilizer angles (which is what makes its smaller as it's slightly narrower). They even unofficially have different designations, the silver was unofficially the F-117A2 later the F-117B. The official designation was the same as part of a disinfo campaign so any leaked documents or details wouldn't tip off anyone who would care that there were actually two projects going on. There were even several other models that never saw flight. I don't know how much of the other differences besides the visual one's I should talk about, but I can find out sometime soon.

edit on 6/15/2013 by EViLKoNCEPTz because: (no reason given)

edit on 6/16/2013 by EViLKoNCEPTz because: (no reason given)

Here is a pretty decent link outlying F117 variants. www.f-117a.com... One thing that struck me was a evolutionary design trend away from the arrowhead configuration and more torward what we see today with the F-22. fascinating!

Lockheed studied several F-117A derivatives, but none were ever produced. The company ultimately put its efforts into developing a design for the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition. This series of concepts resulted in the YF-22, which won a fly-off against Northrop's YF-23. Some of the designs leading up to the YF-22 were really interesting.

F-22 Design Evolution, Part 1
www.codeonemagazine.com...

F-22 Design Evolution, Part 2
www.codeonemagazine.com...

I remember doing the test flights for the F-22 and YF-22 and being able to tell the difference between the two variants. There are some changes from the early models and the production model that followed. Hell they even labeled one the F/A-22 for a while, probably without any differences though. Here's a pic...




Notice the rear one?

shadohawk, i have come across many of your posts during my many years of lurking on ats, i have always learned a great deal from them as i have from the ones in this thread, but i think that even you can agree that there is a possibility that the government could be hiding some early prototypes from us that they just so happened to have left out of all of the pictures, media, etc. as for the two models pictured, they both look the same to me, you would be surprised how much bigger and smaller vehicles look with certain paint jobs and not to mention different camera lenses.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
If the Grey Dragon (or Grey Ghost) was different from the black Nighthawk, they would have different designations. But they are both designated F-117A. Every source I can find in a quick search indicates that a single F-117A was painted grey for testing of daytime operations. There are no design differences between the grey and black F-117A's.

So, unless someone can provide any sources indicating different designs for the grey and black F-117A's besides photo manipulations in Photoshop, then this case is closed as far as I'm concerned.


But sitting here saying they're different without any sources is embracing ignorance, and contrary to what I could find in a quick search.

edit on 15-6-2013 by _BoneZ_ because: (no reason given)

Why is everyone so stuck on the color? I'm sure they fly EQUALLY well. I tought we were past the color thing.

reply to post by Gu1tarJohn

reply to post by LordOfDestruction


Yes, there have been a great many manned and unmanned aircraft that have yet to be publicly acknowledged. I am aware of several Lockheed Martin UAV projects (Desert Prowler, Manta, etc.) and various manned airplanes of unknown origin such as the YF-113G and YF-24 in the 1990s, and some sort of classified advanced technology demonstration prototype that was tested in 1983.

That wasn't really the point of this thread, however. We were just trying to sort out if there was any physical difference between the gray F-117A pictured in the OP and any other YF-117A/F-117A. There wasn't. Any apparent difference was simply an optical illusion.