Lost Tribes of the Green Sahara

reply to post by SLAYER69


This is the kind of thing Harte would love, not seen any comment's by Harte for a month or so hoping Harte is fine, interesting anthropological thread, it would be interesting to see how much these north African people's may have influenced early southern Europeans during the ice ages and what there genetic relationship to the rest of the world is as opposed to the sub Saharan peoples alive today.

Did i not see somewhere that the Nile once flowed through this area? If so, it might explain how significant the area was.

Found it. www.abovetopsecret.com...

A strange notion crosses my mind, suppose this area was not the basis for Atlantis?
Time for some research.

reply to post by LABTECH767


Harte is a teacher so he would have been dealing with finals, etc. and may have gone on vacation after that....or he joined the Légion étrangère!

reply to post by dowot


Yep there were rivers




Rivers with map (black and white)

The rivers of the Sahara

Another article on that subject

reply to post by Hanslune


Which brings up a great question.

Wonders if any of those now dried ancient river beds ever had early cultures or civilizations along them like the Nile?

Which of course would be buried under sand....

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Hanslune

 

Which brings up a great question.

Wonders if any of those now dried ancient river beds ever had early cultures or civilizations along them like the Nile?

Which of course would be buried under sand....

I would say yes

Cultures tend to arise near fresh water, food sources, fire wood sources, defensive terrain (not in all cases) and nearby tool making material (Obsidian, flint, etc), two cultures are already known the Capsian and Oranian, there are some other HG and pastorialist but I cannot remember their names off hand.

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

This is the kind of thing Harte would love, not seen any comment's by Harte for a month or so hoping Harte is fine, interesting anthropological thread, it would be interesting to see how much these north African people's may have influenced early southern Europeans during the ice ages and what there genetic relationship to the rest of the world is as opposed to the sub Saharan peoples alive today.

I'm fine, and I do love it.

But I've known about it for quite some time.

About time somebody posted about it though. Thanks, Slayer.

Harte

Starting 9000 years ago and continuing until about 7000 years ago, Africa was a different place. The world was in what was called the "Atlantic Period" or Holocene climatic optimum. This occurred because of a subtle change in the earth's axial tilt as it orbits around the sun in a cycle that repeats once every 26,000 years, called Milankovitch cycles after the Serbian engineer who discovered the phenomenon. This is, generally speaking, an abstracted map I have created using available paleovegetation information, here is the present day:

And here is Africa 7000 years ago, including the gigantic lake that geologists call "Lake Mega Chad" and the rivers discovered by sattelites that used to drain into the Mediterranean.

www.somalinet.com...
pls klik for more reading

Like the above said it's a cycle that repeats it's self every 26kyrs I am gonna through this out there but this seems to match the Kemetian processional star cycle of every 26kyrs

The apparent movement of the Signs of the Zodiac across the sky does not only take place on an annual basis however. The cycle also occurs over a period of 25,920 years, often referred to as Plato's Great Year. The following diagram can be interpreted on both of these levels, but the main emphasis is on the Great Year … the Four Seasons, the Twelve Ages and the Precession of the Equinoxes. The twelve markers indicating the timing of the Sun entering a New Age and / or Season of the Zodiac are like "flags" denoting the boundaries. In fact they could be considered as "flagships" heralding in each of the New Ages and / or Seasons. The ensigns of the twelve Zodiacal Constellations, representing the Twelve Ages in the Precession of the Equinoxes, appear to arch their way across the sky as if in royal procession. The beginning of a new Zodiacal Season is marked by the standards of the Lion, the Bull, the Man and the Eagle … sometimes equated with the Four Cardinal Directions. The Fifth Cardinal Direction is the central point of revolution, the pole of the ecliptic.

ancientegypt.hypermart.net...

The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara. The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara. The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd. Significant find The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years. "It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.

www.aljazeera.com...

On another thread by me I posted info on the Dar Titichit complex that sprang up about the first dynasty of Kemet.

Just wanted to thank everybody for participating.
Great contributions everybody

Originally posted by Spider879

The apparent movement of the Signs of the Zodiac across the sky does not only take place on an annual basis however. The cycle also occurs over a period of 25,920 years, often referred to as Plato's Great Year. The following diagram can be interpreted on both of these levels, but the main emphasis is on the Great Year … the Four Seasons, the Twelve Ages and the Precession of the Equinoxes. The twelve markers indicating the timing of the Sun entering a New Age and / or Season of the Zodiac are like "flags" denoting the boundaries. In fact they could be considered as "flagships" heralding in each of the New Ages and / or Seasons. The ensigns of the twelve Zodiacal Constellations, representing the Twelve Ages in the Precession of the Equinoxes, appear to arch their way across the sky as if in royal procession. The beginning of a new Zodiacal Season is marked by the standards of the Lion, the Bull, the Man and the Eagle … sometimes equated with the Four Cardinal Directions. The Fifth Cardinal Direction is the central point of revolution, the pole of the ecliptic.

ancientegypt.hypermart.net...

That website claims that the "progenitors of the Ancient Egyptian people" actually arranged the stars in the sky.

Now, that a mite crazier than most things I see posted here. Or am I alone in thinking that?

Harte

reply to post by Harte

That website claims that the "progenitors of the Ancient Egyptian people" actually arranged the stars in the sky. Now, that a mite crazier than most things I see posted here. Or am I alone in thinking that? Harte

I don't think that's what they meant more like they plotted the procession. not arrange the heavenly bodies that's Wow!!!

The progenitors of the Ancient Egyptians carved their knowledge in the stars so that it would never be desecrated, worn away or lost. Their knowledge would be eternal. The progenitors of the Ancient Egyptians were the Masons of the Heavens.

Naaw just mean they mapped the stars to events on the ground at-least that's what I read into it.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Harte

 

That website claims that the "progenitors of the Ancient Egyptian people" actually arranged the stars in the sky. Now, that a mite crazier than most things I see posted here. Or am I alone in thinking that? Harte

I don't think that's what they meant more like they plotted the procession. not arrange the heavenly bodies that's Wow!!!

The progenitors of the Ancient Egyptians carved their knowledge in the stars so that it would never be desecrated, worn away or lost. Their knowledge would be eternal. The progenitors of the Ancient Egyptians were the Masons of the Heavens.

Naaw just mean they mapped the stars to events on the ground at-least that's what I read into it.

Then how do they claim that the star patterns represent such things as a square and a compass?

I mean, the constellations they're talking about have nothing to do with either.

Also, as was pointed out, these constellations are Babylonian/Sumerian via Ancient Greece. They certainly had no bearing on any Ancient Egyptian belief system.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

Then how do they claim that the star patterns represent such things as a square and a compass? I mean, the constellations they're talking about have nothing to do with either. Also, as was pointed out, these constellations are Babylonian/Sumerian via Ancient Greece. They certainly had no bearing on any Ancient Egyptian belief system.

They are going for the belief that they prefigured the Masons, I guess kind of like the whole thing with what Robert Bauval and others have been saying about the 26kyrs cycle they claimed the ancient Kemites had knowladge of. about the particular stars in the link I can't argue for or against an ancient kemetic connection as I am relatively new to Astro archaeology.
Example the Sphinx was supposedly created in the time of Leo as it would appear 10,500yrs ago,they are not going main stream stream on this.

Orion correlation theory The Orion correlation theory, as expounded by popular authors Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval,[19] is based on the proposed exact correlation of the three pyramids at Giza with the three stars ζ Ori, ε Ori and δ Ori, the stars forming Orion's Belt, in the relative positions occupied by these stars in 10500 BC. The authors argue that the geographic relationship of the Sphinx, the Giza pyramids and the Nile directly corresponds with Leo, Orion and the Milky Way respectively. Sometimes cited as an example of pseudoarchaeology, the theory is at variance with mainstream scholarship

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Harte

 

Then how do they claim that the star patterns represent such things as a square and a compass? I mean, the constellations they're talking about have nothing to do with either. Also, as was pointed out, these constellations are Babylonian/Sumerian via Ancient Greece. They certainly had no bearing on any Ancient Egyptian belief system.

They are going for the belief that they prefigured the Masons, I guess kind of like the whole thing with what Robert Bauval and others have been saying about the 26kyrs cycle they claimed the ancient Kemites had knowladge of. about the particular stars in the link I can't argue for or against an ancient kemetic connection as I am relatively new to Astro archaeology.
Example the Sphinx was supposedly created in the time of Leo as it would appear 10,500yrs ago,they are not going main stream stream on this.

Orion correlation theory The Orion correlation theory, as expounded by popular authors Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval,[19] is based on the proposed exact correlation of the three pyramids at Giza with the three stars ζ Ori, ε Ori and δ Ori, the stars forming Orion's Belt, in the relative positions occupied by these stars in 10500 BC. The authors argue that the geographic relationship of the Sphinx, the Giza pyramids and the Nile directly corresponds with Leo, Orion and the Milky Way respectively. Sometimes cited as an example of pseudoarchaeology, the theory is at variance with mainstream scholarship

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, Leo is a Sumerian constellation that didn't exist for Egyptians.

Leo was originally called the "Big Dog," only later being associated with a lion.

That shows the Sumerians didn't get it from some earlier bunch, since it wasn't a lion at first.

Your original linked reference is hooey. I won't check the second one, for obvious reasons.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Credit: Constellations, from the funerary chamber of the Tomb of Seti I, New Kingdom, 1294-1279 BC (wall painting), Egyptian 19th Dynasty (c.1297-1185 BC) / Valley of the Kings, Thebes, Egypt / Giraudon / The Bridgeman Art Library
www.bridgemanart.com...
Like I said I am not gonna argue the point you maybe right but I did some digging and found this off-course .1297-1185 BC is late in the day and they could have gotten it from the Sumerians.

The Greek-Egyptianized (or Egyptian-Hellenized) artist of the Denderah Circular Zodiac has realised that there was already a 'Leo' in the Egyptian prototype, and thus replaced it with another Leo figure of the Greek-Roman style. It is obvious that had the artist thought that the New Kingdom Lion was NOT Leo, then he would surely have added another lion somewhere just above the figure of Leo. The fact that the artist did not do this but only shows the Hippo and the Thigh in the Northern part of the sky, confirms that the clearly recognised 'Leo' in the 'lion of the New Kingdom drawings. This is also confirmed in the so-called linear/rectangular zodiac of Denderah, where only one 'zodiacal' lion is shown, and no lion is shown in the Northern sky next to the Hippo and the Thigh.

[url=http://]http://robertbauval.co.uk/articles/articles/nkleo4.html
robertbauval.co.uk...

Originally posted by Spider879
Like I said I am not gonna argue the point you maybe right but I did some digging and found this off-course .1297-1185 BC is late in the day and they could have gotten it from the Sumerians.

The Greek-Egyptianized (or Egyptian-Hellenized) artist of the Denderah Circular Zodiac has realised that there was already a 'Leo' in the Egyptian prototype, and thus replaced it with another Leo figure of the Greek-Roman style. It is obvious that had the artist thought that the New Kingdom Lion was NOT Leo, then he would surely have added another lion somewhere just above the figure of Leo. The fact that the artist did not do this but only shows the Hippo and the Thigh in the Northern part of the sky, confirms that the clearly recognised 'Leo' in the 'lion of the New Kingdom drawings. This is also confirmed in the so-called linear/rectangular zodiac of Denderah, where only one 'zodiacal' lion is shown, and no lion is shown in the Northern sky next to the Hippo and the Thigh.

Bauvel has to "mirror" the image from Senmut's tomb to make the depictions agree with what he is saying.

Alternatively, the corresponding images in the Dendera circular zodiac are arranged similar to that in Senmut's tomb.

Lastly, Bauvel's argument falls apart if you find an image of the Dendera zodiac that's clear (makes me wonder why he posted such a small image on that page.):

The Greek-Egyptianized (or Egyptian-Hellenized) artist of the Denderah Circular Zodiac has realised that there was already a 'Leo' in the Egyptian prototype, and thus replaced it with another Leo figure of the Greek-Roman style. It is obvious that had the artist thought that the New Kingdom Lion was NOT Leo, then he would surely have added another lion somewhere just above the figure of Leo.

Bauvel states that only one lion is found in the Dendera zodiac. Click here and zoom in. There are two. One at lower left, and one at left.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

Bauvel has to "mirror" the image from Senmut's tomb to make the depictions agree with what he is saying. Alternatively, the corresponding images in the Dendera circular zodiac are arranged similar to that in Senmut's tomb. Lastly, Bauvel's argument falls apart if you find an image of the Dendera zodiac that's clear (makes me wonder why he posted such a small image on that page.):

Okay I saw the double lion to the left along with other double or twin figures but I am not sure what it means and I am still puzzled by the NK zodiac was it a clear sign of borrowing or not.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Harte

 

Bauvel has to "mirror" the image from Senmut's tomb to make the depictions agree with what he is saying. Alternatively, the corresponding images in the Dendera circular zodiac are arranged similar to that in Senmut's tomb. Lastly, Bauvel's argument falls apart if you find an image of the Dendera zodiac that's clear (makes me wonder why he posted such a small image on that page.):

Okay I saw the double lion to the left along with other double or twin figures but I am not sure what it means and I am still puzzled by the NK zodiac was it a clear sign of borrowing or not.

I don't think so.

The round zodiac is Greek, though. Put there during the Ptolemaic period.

I believe that if you look into it you'll find that in the northern sky, the Egyptians saw several constellations. In the southern sky, they divided it into regions with names, and recognized (primarily) individual stars there.

I may have the directions reversed. It's not my area of expertise, after all

Incidentally, the term "zodiac" is used for the series of constellations that appear in the plane of the Earth's rotation. Other "star patterns" are just constellations.

The zodiac appears as a ring around the Earth, each constellation in turn rising due east and setting due west along the plane of the ecliptic.

There was no zodiac in Ancient Egypt. They may well have been aware, however, of the Babylonian one, where the Greek one came from.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

Incidentally, the term "zodiac" is used for the series of constellations that appear in the plane of the Earth's rotation. Other "star patterns" are just constellations. The zodiac appears as a ring around the Earth, each constellation in turn rising due east and setting due west along the plane of the ecliptic. There was no zodiac in Ancient Egypt. They may well have been aware, however, of the Babylonian one, where the Greek one came from.

Well I got a lot more reading to do in this area myself and while I tend to be a lil Nilocentric I have to look into other civilizations to see what they gave or took from the Nile valley for instance I thought the Caduceus and the winged diisc were Nile Valley now I am not so sure gotta love the learning process..

Originally posted by Spider879
... for instance I thought the Caduceus and the winged diisc were Nile Valley now I am not so sure gotta love the learning process..

My understanding is that nobody knows where the winged disc originated.

I believe the earliest one we've found is Akkadian, from what today is Syria.

Harte