The Zimmerman Trial

reply to post by IvanAstikov


It's in the testimony. Don West said during questioning (I believe with the P.A. maybe not though) that Zimmerman's trainer referred to him as soft and even explained it to mean as a fighter. It will probably come back up if the trainer is a witness.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by IvanAstikov

 

That's the point of losing someone right? Just because he didn't go to the mean doesn't mean Zimmerman had any more clue. He could've run straight out of the neighborhood or into any house. What's the point of what you are saying. Zimmerman still lost track of him and was returning to his truck. Familiarize yourself with the map.

I have done. Can you honestly say that when Trayvon disappeared from view behind the houses, George did not have a clue where Trayvon was any longer and couldn't have even made a guess as to which way he was heading? Bear in mind he'd told the dispatcher Trayvon was heading to the rear entrance, so it's not like he'd lost him for good. There were numerous options for a rational-minded person to choose that didn't require him having to leave his vehicle. Seeing as you are familiar with the map, let's see if you can think of any, before I tell you what they were.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Yes I can make a guess. Probably the same as george. I bet he guessed he ran out the other exit as he probably guessed he didn't live there. Which would explain why George went past the T branch and why Martin was able to ambush him.

Watch Georges walkthrough.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Since common sense was brought up today by another let’s all try to use it some.

If you have been paying any attention to the trial you know it was almost pitch black out as in extreme poor visibility. People who were witnesses have stated on many occasions how hard it was to see.

Now use that common sense and think about just how hard it would be for Martin to just go home after he said he could no longer see Zim. Common sense should tell you that the only way that altercation started was because Martin wanted it to happen.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by IvanAstikov

 

It's in the testimony. Don West said during questioning (I believe with the P.A. maybe not though) that Zimmerman's trainer referred to him as soft and even explained it to mean as a fighter. It will probably come back up if the trainer is a witness.

I think you are possibly referring to the comment by Detective Serino that George was a soft guy

From the pdf here --- www.talkleft.com...

Serino told agents that he has talked to ZIMMERMAN on numerous occasions and feels like he knows him fairly well. Serino thinks that ZIMMERMAN does not want to be a cop because cops have a bad reputation and are bullies, but he wants to be a judge. Serino described ZIMMERMAN as being a "soft guy".

So, Serino feels he knows him fairly well. I wonder how he feels having seen George's "reasons for joining gym" section on his membership application form?

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

He wasn't technically following Martin. He was looking for him.

Sorry I just had to pause for a moment to really comprehend this argument you just made.

You know it would have been much simpler to just admit that he was actually following Martin, or at least trying to follow him, even after the dispatcher left, as this is clearly what he was doing that night. You seem to recognize this fact, you just can't seem to bring yourself to admit it.

which he was never told NOT to do btw. Listen to the tape.

And that makes it right? Just because you have the right to do something, it doesn't make it the right thing to do.

He didn't stand his ground though, and he didn't run home.

Your personal opinion. Trayvon had much right to stand his ground as Zimmerman did. And whether or not he could have simply run home, that fact of the matter is that we still don't know how that night went. What we do know was that Zimmerman had a loaded gun, Trayvon was unarmed, Zimmerman was the one that clearly had the initial advantage. You keep on insisting that Travyon should have done this as if he didn't possess the same rights as Zimmerman did that night to stand his ground. Let us not forget Gogo, we're all equally protected under the law.

I bet if you could have run home during your incident and knew there was no chance the goons could catch you you would have right?

Actually I could have walked on, but you see, I'm not a coward, and I knew my rights to stand my ground that night. My natural reaction was to defend myself when those guys continued to harass us and while they would have eventually gone, I didn't *have* to take that kind of abuse. I had every right to stand my ground that night.

A good place to start for a sample would be the fact Trayvon was the first one to make contact in both stories,

Indeed this is true, Trayvon may have made contact first, what matters however is the physical contact, and I'm sorry but even simply putting your hand on somebody or threatening somebody if they did not "listen" to your instructions defines as an initiation of aggression, it didn't necessarily have to be a 'punch' from either side to initiate the fight. Zimmerman also had a chance to explain himself to Trayvon, instead he followed him that night and reacted to him in a negative manner. What followed, Zimmerman claims, Trayvon attacked, but we have nothing to show for this.

Whether there was evidence that there was a struggle or a fight is not relevant, we already know this. This isn't what is in question.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


No I am just being technically accurate. I have admitted he was looking for Martin, but at the time Zimmerman was jumped he wasn't following or searching, he was returning to his truck.

Again, I was just being technical when I said he was not commanded.

Trayvon doesn't qualify for stand your ground because he started the fight after he had time to escape. In order for it to qualify you have to show you took every chance to escape/avoid confrontation. (Read the case of the student who stabbed a bully and got off on SYG).

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by IvanAstikov

 

Yes I can make a guess. Probably the same as george. I bet he guessed he ran out the other exit as he probably guessed he didn't live there. Which would explain why George went past the T branch and why Martin was able to ambush him.

Watch Georges walkthrough.

Before we start referring to this part of his walkthrough, do you have any proof of

a) George leaving his home when he said he did?
b) That he ever saw Trayvon near Frank Taafe's home?
c) That he ever parked outside the clubhouse to make his nen call?
d) That he'd parked his vehicle where he said he did when he got out to "keep an eye on Trayvon"?

When we've established those bits of George's testimony are true, we can go on to what happened when he left his vehicle.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Well circumstantial evidence that would show Zimmerman unlikely to initiate a physical altercation would be that he had a gun and knew cops were on the way. It would not benefit him in any way to risk getting beat up or being arrested. Common sense again is your friend here. You have zimmerman painted as a psychopath or something in your mind. He doesn't seem that way at all. Meanwhile (more circumstantial for you) Martin bragged about fights, loved getting in them, and even had a friend text him telling him he shouldn't fight so much. The key prosecution witness came a hair from saying she was aware Martin would start a fight. Believe she even said he could've got into a fight as a reason for not calling back. I could be wrong there though.

reply to post by IvanAstikov

Erm... George admits that Trayvon spoke to him before the physical altercation began, not that Trayvon lay in wait and attacked him completely without warning, and he also says Trayvon asked him a question. This matches what the girl talking on the phone to Trayvon shortly before he died says,

This right here is interesting. Zimmerman's accounts that Trayvon came out of nowhere or ambushed him and just randomly attacked him without any discussion or initiation, doesn't seem to stack up in court with the witness testimony. Even Zimmerman's supporters admit that there was probably contact, verbal contact prior, this doesn't fit in with Zimmerman's initially claim. It's fairly apparent he tried to boost his version of events.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


We don't really have to. We are working with a time frame on Martin that puts strict constraints on zimmermans time frame. Zimmerman has no real reason for lying about that, but his wife could possible help verify. And finally it wouldn't and can't effect the case without conflicting reports. It wouldn't remove the doubt already instilled from the prosecution.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


He has said Trayvon spoke to him since his very first account I believe, but I know for certain as far back as his walk through which was obviously more detailed. I think he said it from the start though.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
George admits that Trayvon spoke to him before the physical altercation began,

We have to wait until we get Zimmermans sworn testimony and cross examination to know for sure. All we have right now is what the media and spin have put out. So far, the sworn testimony in this trial hasn't exactly matched what was in the press.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

Well circumstantial evidence that would show Zimmerman unlikely to initiate a physical altercation would be that he had a gun and knew cops were on the way. It would not benefit him in any way to risk getting beat up or being arrested.

Your view of things, maybe. For all we know, he could have laid orders or threats to Trayvon specifically because he had this weapon with him. After all, as you had admitted prior, Zimmerman was following Travyon and was supposedly looking for him after the dispatcher had left, he obviously did not want to lose Trayvon. This fits in rather well with the theory that he did not want to meet policy at the letterboxes because he wanted to catch Trayvon, he did not want him to disappear. You're entitled to your opinions Gogo, it doesn't make them fact.

You have zimmerman painted as a psychopath

Well no I don't think he's a psychopath Gogo, I think he handled the situation poorly that night, he clearly wanted to catch Trayvon in the act of doing something, he was motivated by this. This doesn't make him a cold blooded killer, it does however make his actions reckless. As for Travyon talking about fights in the past, he was a 17 year old boy Gogo, seriously. If this is all you have left at this point, well this is why my stop is.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by IvanAstikov

 

Well you do seem in a constant state of needing to be corrected. It's defending the guys right to defend himself. Has nothing to do with gun owners or gun issues.

I am defending a guy's right to defend himself from actual or potential bodily harm, it's just not the same guy you are defending. I'm also defending a person's right to walk freely where he has every right to be, without being harrassed by incompetent do-gooders with poor interpersonal and communication skills.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov

Originally posted by riffraff
Just an observation: it seems some people think that if you take self-defense lessons you'll never lose a fight.

I've a feeling I'm one of those people you are referring to, so let's clear this up. I am not claiming that ANY amount of training makes you invincible, I'm saying that some training is better than none at all. If George has had any experience of full contact sparring, where you finally learn if you've really got what it takes to be hit hard and come back firing, or fight through the pain barrier, don't you think it is a relevant fact the jury deserves to know?

I agree with you, but here is the problem: I can't say if GZ had it in him to "fight through the pain". And neither can you. And frankly neither can the jury. The only person who knows is Zimmerman. Looking at his head wounds I can't say his life wasnt in some degree of danger. Have people survived worse? Of course they have. Have people died from less? You betcha.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

He has said Trayvon spoke to him since his very first account I believe, but I know for certain as far back as his walk through which was obviously more detailed. I think he said it from the start though.

edit on 29-6-2013 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)

You're right, he did.

Zimmerman: So, I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes and he said, What the #’s your problem, homie? And I got my cell phone out to call 911 this time.

Singleton: Um hum.

Zimmerman: And I said, Hey man, I don’t have a problem. And he goes, No, now you have a problem. And he punched me in the nose. At that point I fell down, ah I tried to defend myself, he just started punching me in the face. And, ah, I started screaming for help, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breathe. Then he started taking my head.. Singleton: Are you still standing at this point? Zimmerman: No ma’am. Singleton: OK. Zimmerman: I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time.

Singleton: OK.

Here's the transcript - www.txantimedia.com...

I like this bit here

Singleton: OK, I’m just gonna keep quiet and you, you tell me the story. You tell me what happened tonight, OK?

Note where she says that in the interview and then note how many times she interrupts afterwards.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I never said he was looking for him after the dispatcher left. I don't think that was the case. Considering Trayvon connfronted Zimmerman first though it is a probability that Trayvon was looking for Martin.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

I never said he was looking for him after the dispatcher left. I don't think that was the case. Considering Trayvon connfronted Zimmerman first though it is a probability that Trayvon was looking for Martin.

Why was Zimmerman following him, when he was supposed to be at the grocery store shopping??? Again, this started loooooong before the physical altercation. George should have either: A) Minded his own business or B) called the police and let them do their job! 1 simple phone call, would have resolved this matter. But nooooooooo. George had to take matters into his own hands. If Trayvon was a threat, why did George get out of his vehicle???

[[[[[Briiiiiiiing]]]]] 911 Dispatch: What's your emergency?

THAT'S ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN!!!!

He's GUILTY for being STUPID!

Here's an interesting little tidbit I found floating out there. It explains why thug life didn't have a criminal history even though he should have.

patdollard.com...