Feeling negative? Look at the opposite side...

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by Jefferton
This means nothing. Those are just words. You are wrong to try and make people think that words can fix or change any serious pain. You have obviously no experience.

I have a lot of experience. Psychological suffering comes from your thoughts and beliefs, reality is just a catalyst, its your automatic negative thought/beliefs/reaction that creates bad feelings. The event is not to blame, you are.

Physical pain can be imposed, suffering is optional.

edit on 10-6-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

I've heard that quote before...

"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

Pain is most definitely inevitable...but from personal experience with the things I've been through, I can say without a doubt that I KNOW that suffering is, unfortunately, not always optional. It is true that in many situations, suffering is definitely optional and you can choose how much and how badly you'll let something affect you but in many other situations, suffering is as inescapable and inevitable as pain.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Manula

 

We have to learn to care, cherish and love without too much attachment. But we can attach if we are able to detach when we have too...(removed quoted material which is irrelevant to reply)...But if we learn to detach we can attach. The problem is attachment without the ability to detach at the right time.

I was going to use an example of real loss from my life, but decided not to reveal such personal information about myself on here (as the ATS guidelines suggest). So, my question(s) for you would be:

01. Is conditional love, loving only to a certain extent, and then no more --- what you call "learning to love without too much attachment" --- real love? If you set boundaries on what you're willing to feel, endure, or reciprocate with somebody, are you really loving them?

02. Who decides when it is the "right time" to detach? When you lose someone, do you detach immediately? A week? After the wake? A year later? How do you decide?


~ Wandering Scribe

I will give you an example to show you my point of view:

Lets suppose you have a girlfriend that you love a lot. I recommend that you love with all your heart, love, admire, cherish, unconditional love, limitless love, and dont worry about attachment, let the attachment be.

Now, lets suppose she dumps you. Time to detach... If you are good in detaching, why worry too much...

The point is, if we are able to loose, if we learn to loose and to die to the past, we can live with an all in attitude.

As i said: if you can detach, there no problem with attaching...

If you accept that things come and go, if you are good managing endings, then you can live it with limitless passion and enthusiasm. You are in control...

Of course some suffering and disconfort is natural but you are in control, you know thats the way it is, but, because you know how to destach, because you flow with life, you recover fast, never really loosing control of your life.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by Jefferton
This means nothing. Those are just words. You are wrong to try and make people think that words can fix or change any serious pain. You have obviously no experience.

I have a lot of experience. Psychological suffering comes from your thoughts and beliefs, reality is just a catalyst, its your automatic negative thought/beliefs/reaction that creates bad feelings. The event is not to blame, you are.

Physical pain can be imposed, suffering is optional.

edit on 10-6-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

I've heard that quote before...

"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

Pain is most definitely inevitable...but from personal experience with the things I've been through, I can say without a doubt that I KNOW that suffering is, unfortunately, not always optional. It is true that in many situations, suffering is definitely optional and you can choose how much and how badly you'll let something affect you but in many other situations, suffering is as inescapable and inevitable as pain.

I tend to agree with you, even though in theory there is always a possibility to avoid or end suffering at will, the reallity is that, sometimes, we cant escape it, and you know what, i am glad it is like that, some pain and suffering is good, makes us humans, compassionate and sensible to other peoples feelings.

I think the premise is correct- one can neutralize negative feelings through choice of perspective and thought.
I am actually pretty good at that, I have been called the "Queen of Rationalization" in the past- but have also been accused of being apathetic, indifferent, passive....

I didn't relate to these words because they indicate a lack of love for life, which I certainly didn't feel. I was just able to always look at things from an angle that allowed me to appreciate it as it was.

Later in life I formed the conclusion that physical and emotional energy are essentially the same thing- and thoughts which neutralize emotional energy neutralize (or stop production of ) physical energy.

It is the view of things being "wrong" or in need of change, that produces energy for movement and action in doing so. Judge constantly that all is as it should be, your mind will be at peace, but you kinda miss out on some of the fun of physical manifestation, and the ability to create and build things in matter!

But that too, all have the right to not be into. I sometimes choose to find something around me to focus on negatively, to stir up energy when I have been lacking in it. Like if I haven't felt like cleaning my house, getting mad at someone or about something gets me able to run around and get it all done!

It sure is easy for me to be depressed, a lot because of the way my mind is thinking, a lot because many times things do not go the way I planned.

What I have learned is that negative energy and anger hurts karma.

I wish I knew how to work real magic or something because the accomplishment would make me feel positive.

Originally posted by Bluesma
I think the premise is correct- one can neutralize negative feelings through choice of perspective and thought.
I am actually pretty good at that, I have been called the "Queen of Rationalization" in the past- but have also been accused of being apathetic, indifferent, passive....

I didn't relate to these words because they indicate a lack of love for life, which I certainly didn't feel. I was just able to always look at things from an angle that allowed me to appreciate it as it was.

Later in life I formed the conclusion that physical and emotional energy are essentially the same thing- and thoughts which neutralize emotional energy neutralize (or stop production of ) physical energy.

It is the view of things being "wrong" or in need of change, that produces energy for movement and action in doing so. Judge constantly that all is as it should be, your mind will be at peace, but you kinda miss out on some of the fun of physical manifestation, and the ability to create and build things in matter!

But that too, all have the right to not be into. I sometimes choose to find something around me to focus on negatively, to stir up energy when I have been lacking in it. Like if I haven't felt like cleaning my house, getting mad at someone or about something gets me able to run around and get it all done!

How i understand you!! Sometimes we have to let ourselves feel unsatisfied, feeling lack in order to have fuel for action

Originally posted by greyer
It sure is easy for me to be depressed, a lot because of the way my mind is thinking, a lot because many times things do not go the way I planned.

What I have learned is that negative energy and anger hurts karma.

I wish I knew how to work real magic or something because the accomplishment would make me feel positive.

Just be happy with who you are, learn to accept that you can not be a perfect human who can control the universe through magic.

If things are not going the way you planned, stop making plans.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Just be happy with who you are, learn to accept that you can not be a perfect human who can control the universe through magic.

If things are not going the way you planned, stop making plans.

Thanks.

It sure would be a lot easier though if you could work the universe through magic lol.

I don't see a conclusion in giving up all of earth's gratifications like a monk. My soul sees the nature as a universe, it wants to just have nothing but itself and to get lost in it's comforting yet mysterious abyss. Yet in order for a human to achieve and to fulfill dreams actions have to be taken, and all actions have to be conceived.

So it is not about giving up to me, not about self forgiveness or making amends, not about serenity, not about positive thoughts, it is about completing actions correctly - actions that are in fact a chance with a result that is incomprehensible unless you were psychic, so that is were magic comes in.

Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Just be happy with who you are, learn to accept that you can not be a perfect human who can control the universe through magic.

If things are not going the way you planned, stop making plans.

Thanks.

It sure would be a lot easier though if you could work the universe through magic lol.

I don't see a conclusion in giving up all of earth's gratifications like a monk. My soul sees the nature as a universe, it wants to just have nothing but itself and to get lost in it's comforting yet mysterious abyss. Yet in order for a human to achieve and to fulfill dreams actions have to be taken, and all actions have to be conceived.

So it is not about giving up to me, not about self forgiveness or making amends, not about serenity, not about positive thoughts, it is about completing actions correctly - actions that are in fact a chance with a result that is incomprehensible unless you were psychic, so that is were magic comes in.

I see. I also believe that we should definitely focus on what we can control: ourselves, our actions, our thoughts, our words, our beliefs, our wishes.

We are only responsible for what we can control, even at a soul level, thats how it is.

Our success is measured by how hard we tried, how we did, its about our actions, so yeah, we should focus on that.

And yes, we have to make plans, but the plans should be decomposed in a list of tasks, things we want to do, if we focus on actions, we focus on what we can control, again, i think its the right thing to do, we are accountable only for what we do, not for what happens, what others do or what life does to us.

Originally posted by jcutler12888
Pain is most definitely inevitable...but from personal experience with the things I've been through, I can say without a doubt that I KNOW that suffering is, unfortunately, not always optional. It is true that in many situations, suffering is definitely optional and you can choose how much and how badly you'll let something affect you but in many other situations, suffering is as inescapable and inevitable as pain.

Name one situation where suffering is inevitable.

reply to post by Manula

I will give you an example to show you my point of view:

Lets suppose you have a girlfriend that you love a lot. I recommend that you love with all your heart, love, admire, cherish, unconditional love, limitless love, and dont worry about attachment, let the attachment be.

Now, lets suppose she dumps you. Time to detach... If you are good in detaching, why worry too much...

And if they die, instead of dumping you?

"Time heals all wounds" is essentially the philosophy you're presenting. That the things you lose eventually scab over in your heart/mind, and life moves on. Very true, and very Buddhist. My question is still: how long should that process take, and who decides the length?

The premise you set off with was that all suffering was optional. I notice you've kind of retracted that opinion now though, admitting that suffering WILL happen. If suffering IS natural, then how can you say any length of suffering is better, or worse, than any other?

Do you have a list of approved lengths for which suffering is acceptable in situations? Or are you basing this all on your personal opinions concerning life experiences?


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Damsel

Name one situation where suffering is inevitable.

The tragic and unexpected death of your 3 year old son/daughter.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Manula

Feeling hateful? You are learning about love. Feeling fear? You are learning about courage. Feeling weak? You are learning about strength. Feeling powerless? You are learning about power. Feeling hopeless? You are leaning about hope. Feeling sad? You are learning about joy. Feeling pain? You are learning about pleasure and ease. Treated unfairly? You are learning about justice.

You assume that things like hate and fear are negative. When your tummy aches, isn't this a VERY good alarm to tell you it's time to eat? It's the same with hate and fear; they aren't negative.

Under your premise of, if you are feeling sad you are learning about joy. Well, if this were true then it work in reverse. If you are feeling joy, then you are learning about sadness. See how that doesn't make sense? We are 100% human. Our emotions are 100% human emotions. They are not good or bad. They are what they are; warning signs to make us aware of the state we're in at any given time.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Manula

 

Feeling hateful? You are learning about love. Feeling fear? You are learning about courage. Feeling weak? You are learning about strength. Feeling powerless? You are learning about power. Feeling hopeless? You are leaning about hope. Feeling sad? You are learning about joy. Feeling pain? You are learning about pleasure and ease. Treated unfairly? You are learning about justice.

You assume that things like hate and fear are negative. When your tummy aches, isn't this a VERY good alarm to tell you it's time to eat? It's the same with hate and fear; they aren't negative.

Under your premise of, if you are feeling sad you are learning about joy. Well, if this were true then it work in reverse. If you are feeling joy, then you are learning about sadness. See how that doesn't make sense? We are 100% human. Our emotions are 100% human emotions. They are not good or bad. They are what they are; warning signs to make us aware of the state we're in at any given time.

edit on 6/12/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Its your opinion, a survival of the species type of opinion.

I have a soul based aproach.

We are souls incarnating this human bodies to learn about values and virtues.

Originally posted by jiggerj
if you are feeling sad you are learning about joy.

If you are feeling joy, then you are learning about sadness.

That's what I logged in for

That is understandable how people don't understand things about religion and the laws of physics - because things have not only a paradoxical meaning but two separate meanings, so it is like an interwoven knot of thought that egos can't untie.

Originally posted by Manula
We are souls incarnating this human bodies to learn about values and virtues.

For what purpose?

Originally posted by Damsel

Originally posted by jcutler12888
Pain is most definitely inevitable...but from personal experience with the things I've been through, I can say without a doubt that I KNOW that suffering is, unfortunately, not always optional. It is true that in many situations, suffering is definitely optional and you can choose how much and how badly you'll let something affect you but in many other situations, suffering is as inescapable and inevitable as pain.

Name one situation where suffering is inevitable.

Just one? Okay, that's easy enough. A perfect example of a situation that results in inevitable suffering is when a child is severely and chronically abused. I would know...when I was a kid, I had to survive years of every kind of abuse that a child can be subjected to and on an almost daily basis. I assure you, the suffering was inescapable and absolutely inevitable. Would you like me to name another situation where suffering is inevitable or is the example I provided sufficient?

reply to post by jcutler12888


You're such a downer.

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by Manula

Originally posted by Jefferton
This means nothing. Those are just words. You are wrong to try and make people think that words can fix or change any serious pain. You have obviously no experience.

I have a lot of experience. Psychological suffering comes from your thoughts and beliefs, reality is just a catalyst, its your automatic negative thought/beliefs/reaction that creates bad feelings. The event is not to blame, you are.

Physical pain can be imposed, suffering is optional.

edit on 10-6-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

I've heard that quote before...

"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

Pain is most definitely inevitable...but from personal experience with the things I've been through, I can say without a doubt that I KNOW that suffering is, unfortunately, not always optional. It is true that in many situations, suffering is definitely optional and you can choose how much and how badly you'll let something affect you but in many other situations, suffering is as inescapable and inevitable as pain.

I tend to agree with you, even though in theory there is always a possibility to avoid or end suffering at will, the reallity is that, sometimes, we cant escape it, and you know what, i am glad it is like that, some pain and suffering is good, makes us humans, compassionate and sensible to other peoples feelings.

I definitely agree that some pain and suffering is good for shaping someone's character and teaching them things like strength through adversity, kindness and empathy and compassion for others who are going through pain and suffering, and a change of perspective (hopefully a positive change).

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

You're such a downer.

I'm not a downer, LOL! Damsel asked for an example and I simply gave her one. The topic of this thread, pain and suffering, is a downer by definition so I guess that most posts regarding this subject will be downers in general.

I apologize...I'll try to not come off as such a downer the next time I post.