Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion" (2:256)

reply to post by wildtimes



reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Jizyah simply is a protection tax unless you want non muslims to be freeloaders in an islamic state.

A "protection tax"? Commonly known as EXTORTION by THUGS. Pay us or we will kill you. Or rather PAY US TO LET YOU LIVE AND BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT. Nothing TOLERANT about that.

its not EXTORTION!!!
A muslim is obliged by faith to serve in the army. A non-muslim cannot be forced to do something like that and has an option to pay jizyah or just serve like muslims do. Jizyah is also applicable only on adult males and not on women,children or the old. A jizyah paying citizen also gets all the benifits of state welfare especially in old age or during illness etc.
Its also commanded that if someone is unable to pay it then just let it go and not put the non-muslim under stress by demanding it continuously.
Here's a story of Umar r.a.

The Caliph 'Umar, on seeing an old Jew
begging, brought him to his house. He
gave him some cash and ordered the
treasury officer that such people who
could not earn their living should be
granted stipends from the public treasury. Once, seeing some non-
Muslim lepers on his way back from a
journey, he issued orders that they
should be provided maintenance from
the State funds. In a letter addressed to Adi ibn Artah,
'Umar ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz wrote: "Be kind
towards dhimmis. If you find some of
them old or helpless, give
maintenance to them".

reply to post by logical7

A muslim is obliged by faith to serve in the army.

What in the hell does FAITH have to do with being a SOLDIER?

No, thank you.

Another reason not to want Islam as the "one global religion." The armed forces of the US are volunteer - people are PAID to be IN THEM - and get benefits from it (or used to), plus Veterans Affairs takes care of them for life - another branch of the military/government.

I object to the way they use youth to kill others, and how they damage the thinking and ability to live a "normal" life.

I've seen videos of the preschoolers (little kids) dressed in fatigues and learning how to carry guns in Palestine and shouting "Death to Israel!". Sickening.

Originally posted by logical7
its not EXTORTION!!!

Of course it is. A person has to pay protection money because he/she doesn't buy into Islam ... that's a shake down. And it's more proof that the only fair law is secular rule of law. No one is held higher or lower than anyone else based on their religious beliefs. People aren't treated any different based on religious beliefs. Society is even keeled.

Again .. more proof of what the OP posted. There is compulsion in Islam.

reply to post by FlyersFan

A person has to pay protection money because he/she doesn't buy into Islam ...

No, a person has to pay because he/she cannot be obliged to pay 2.5% annual savings as zakat and he cannot be asked to join the muslim army. Btw for wildtimes the soldier do get salary etc, they don't fight for free and they don't always fight but even during a need the non muslims cannot be compelled to fight with their lives to protect the muslim state.

And it's more proof that the only fair law is secular rule of law.

you mean if a group refuses to pays income tax, service tax, entertainment tax, value added tax etc etc he/she would be left alone?

The only thing jizyah proves is that the the religious duties of charity and being ready to fight to defend the muslim state are not imposed on non muslims,
however jizyah is taken so that they do contribute towards the state and don't get everything free otherwise it would be injustice to the muslims who pay zakat and fight to keep the state safe and the non-muslims get "a free lunch"!!
Then the non-muslims will flock to the Muslim state and soon the state wouldn't have enough to take care of all due to increasing seekers of "free welfare"

Originally posted by logical7
Then the non-muslims will flock to the Muslim state ..... "

Duuuuuude ... not gunna' happen. Thats delusional. Free people are not going to go running to live under Sharia or Muslim law. We aren't going to give up our freedom of religion .. freedom of speech ... freedom to wear whatever clothing we wish ... freedom to have a barbie doll or a squirt gun (outlawed in Iran) .... we aren't going to go dodging 'morals police' (Iran) .... we aren't going to hand our children over to the muslims to have their hands chopped off if they steal a piece of bubble gum from the store .... we want to be able to have a bible or a rosary (outlawed to bring into Saudi Arabia) .... etc etc

No one is going to 'flock to the Muslim state'. Not a chance.

reply to post by FlyersFan

No one is going to 'flock to the Muslim state'.

i actually appreciate that! As nobody wants people who have Jesus' pbuh name on lips while they are busy hoarding worldly goods and yet convinced that Jesus pbuh is going to take them in heaven when they fail to follow any of his teachings(many did in the past and some still do and i hope you are among them FF and Qur'an promises these people paradise too.

Btw, i am not interested in useless snapping at each other. It feels shallow, sometimes fun but for now its enough.
Do you have any real point other that you want to discuss?

reply to post by logical7

As nobody wants people who have Jesus' pbuh name on lips while they are busy hoarding worldly goods and yet convinced that Jesus pbuh is going to take them in heaven when they fail to follow any of his teachings

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

Btw, i am not interested in useless snapping at each other. It feels shallow, sometimes fun but for now its enough.

Yes, it is 'enough.' We've exhausted the "fun" part of this debate.
If I were a mod you would get APPLAUSE!!!! right now.

That was an excellent post.

Thank you, logical7, for showing us your less confident, human side.
NONE OF US know the answers, man. Not one of us. The whole point is to care about one another, and try to figure it out with a collective effort. I'm sorry for having to push you so far....but I think that you actually have arrived now at a point from which we can REALLY, HONESTLY communicate.

I still wish you all the best. Let's continue to try to build this bridge, eh?????

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by mideast

 

You can read my post and thread history if you want to get better acquainted with me.
I spent the winter discussing the problems with Christian interpretations and denominations. Now it is spring, the Middle East is exploding (still, only more so), Dominionist Christians are foaming at the mouth for "war" to defend Israel, and I'm trying to find a balance.

My opinion at this point remains: RELIGION CAUSES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

Thanks for details.

You want peace , but peace is not available at every cost. Some times people are bloodthirsty and you can not do much about it.

You wonder why they are here ? you should see that they have been walking this path for years.They have been letting themselves be manipulated , and now they are ready to fire.

The question is where were you when these people were getting their brains washed ? Where were I ?

Stopping the flood is sometimes impossible.(Only if you think it is flood)

IMO . live your life and try to dig for the truth deeper and deeper.

That is always available.

MHO.

I think it is more important what (self-proclaimed) muslims believe than what is in the Quran, because that is open to intepretation. And their actual beliefs do not paint a pretty picture. Death penalty for apostasy are widely supported, with hundreds of millions of muslims in its favor:

Clicky (page 47)

Clicky

A tree is known by its fruit..

reply to post by mideast

The question is where were you when these people were getting their brains washed ?

Uh, minding my own business, being a responsible citizen and raising two children.

Where were [you]?

(tiny English hint: Where 'was I', or where 'were we/he/she/they'

Appreciate your efforts, though.)
Where were you?
I haven't the slightest idea. It was none of my business. I'm rather non-plussed that now it has to be my business and I dont' like looking over my shoulder constantly - but I would be stupid and naive not to. Now it's everybody's business what ANY of us is doing.

For that I blame the internet, while at the same time I credit the internet for providing a global speak-easy.
It was easier to just go along day to day before we began being exposed to world-wide events in the way we are now.
It's especially troubling that the youth have open access to it without the necessary 'life experience' and 'step by step' education to know how to manage such complicated issues.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thanks for the fundamental point of EN.

I think you and many western people are trying to solve many of the problems that Muslims have been having for years.

Like I said before , they have slayed their 3rd Imam , the nephew of Muhammad pbuh , and his sons , even 6month old son was slayed thirsty.

So , there is no doubt that Muslims have real issues. But , the western solution is not a solution.

West is now helping the sect they have created (wahhabi) and at the same the same they point them as enemies.

They do like to make this worse to help them justify their presence in the region.

And at the same time , you and others claim they want peace in the region.

Peace is not going to happen as well as the fire won't be extinguished as long as you put fuel in it.

Old members of tribes , the respected clerics can solve this issue by asking both sides to forgive and forget all the losses.

No other way will help because it is not how it works here.

Maybe force and threatening work for sometime , like what Saddam did. But it is not going to last much.

+ Keeping these people uneducated and brainwashed is not going to help , neither.

I know how Iraqi and Afghans are exposed to western media.

Others who want to find another way , mostly came to get into extremist groups.

West should look for some change in these countries. But like I said , west likes them the way that they are.

Uneducated and easily manipulated , looking for feeding two holes , stupid owners of the richest resources on the planet. That is what west us all middle eastern to be. The stupid killers who want some body to look for them.

peace

Islam is by it's very nature a violent religion that intends on dominating the world by the edge of the sword. Abrogation has all but eliminated any love or peace you may have thought to find in it. If you are not a muslim you are an infidel and an enemy to be lied to, deceived, ambushed against, and made war with and killed.

If Islam has been stopped in that goal such as in India it is because of rigorous resistance to it and rejection of it.

The western nations are stupid because they believe all the "religion of peace" song and dance the religion of Islam feeds to those they are deceiving and plotting to overthrow.

I've read the Quran. It's a book of war, blood, and death. btw, I like the OP's pics showing the reality of it all.

One other thing, in this war that Islam is fighting with itself in Syria, I would give weapons to both sides and let them at it, or as Sarah Palin said "let allah sort it all out." As long as they're doing what they know to do best which is to fight and kill, and they're doing it to each other, they're not doing it to us.

It's a war between the Shia and the Sunni which are two distinct forms of Islam. Look, and see what they do. Learn from them. Be thoughtful as to their expectations for dominance and power over those that they hate. In this case, it's each others sect of the same religion of peace. For what they now do to each other is what is commanded that they should do to the infidels. And the infidels are those who are not muslim as the quran has stated.

reply to post by Fromabove


you seem to be pretty educated on islam, under what sheikh you studied?
Sheikh Internet(anti-islamic sites)?

Try interacting with muslims around you.

Originally posted by logical7[/i
you seem to be pretty educated on islam, under what sheikh you studied?
Sheikh Internet(anti-islamic sites)?.

you seem to be pretty educated on Christianity, under what priest did you study?
Father Internet (anti-west/pro-Sharia sites)???