The Massive Problem With The National Security Of America

I hope you will forgive the fact that this is a text OP, and there are no links, videos or graphics for you to chew on.

This is all about the National Security of not only the USA but many other nations too. It all comes back to the security of the American system in light of what we now know about the Prism program.

First, I would like to ask you who runs the NSA and what their skills are when it comes to technology. Think about this from a logical perspective, we have old men, military men, who know little about computers and could probably not even tell you the difference between an IP and a VPN. They are supposedly running an agency responsible for gathering electronic data from all over the world through cable tapping and database intrusion, trojans and viruses. I think it's fair to assume these men have barely a rudimentary understanding of what their staff are actually doing, they're yes or no men, the faces of the department, the ones who get files on their desks and say things like "can we get this done in some way? is that even possible?" to a committee of people who might know a little more about it than they do.

Now think about this... before now a government leader would have someone sweep their offices for bugs, check the phone for a recording device or just spend a while sweeping a room before they discussed anything. This is basically how we imagined it all to be, right? Politicians think about what might possible come out about them in the future and they take the risk. No one is totally clean and they all have something, but 99% of the time that one thing is a real secret, something only they and another know about, and it happened before they were even running for president...

But now, we have proof that anyone, anywhere, at any time in the last twenty years could have been compromised by anyone in that Prism program. Don't we think it's at least plausible that someone monitored Obama's phone calls and internet activity when he was a senator? Isn't it at least plausible that someone senior in the Prism program would have been watching every candidate and monitoring every communication? Are we all supposed to just *trust* that no one was listening in?

Let that sink in for a while. Really think about what this means and consider the national security nightmare this creates.

Before the revelations of last week, we kind of all thought that the secrets of a president would have to come from the old college buddy or the old political group they hung out with. But now, we know that every single person in your elected government could have been spied on by the NSA for years. They might only be there because the NSA has someone they can control.

Now think about this too, doesn't this revelation mean that the President should have classed this program as a threat to national security itself and immediately acted to raid the offices of everyone involved in the NSA? The NSA is unelected, but they potentially have access to damaging information that could be used to blackmail not only every politician in the US, and every Judge too, but foreign leaders also.

This is just another reason why the people should be enraged. This is not just about the security of the people and the massive intrusion into the lives of millions of Americans. This about the national security of your nation and mine. This is about an unknown and unelected agency having the ultimate power for the last ten years - at least - to manipulate and control every elected politician in government.

Your thoughts and opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

reply to post by Rocker2013


Qui bono?

Who benefits?

Who ultimately benefits from all of this? All the drama of the past few weeks, who benefits?

The average American?
Nope. A big goose egg there. We're disposable pieces on the chess board. We get played on a multitude of levels. If it isn't a taking head, then it is social engineering through commercials, tv shows, ads on buses that influence us on our way to work.

Washington, D.C.
Yes. It benefits them. The power brokers, the pundits, the politicians, the lobbyists.

We are an unruly bunch. The expression "herding cats" comes to mind when speaking of Americans. We have this awful concept of freedom and personal liberty. We want our guns. We want our free speech. We have this annoying thing called the Constitution.

It must irritate DC to no end to have that wee document thrown in their faces at every turn!

Because in a brief moment of clarity, in a small moment of time, some guys saw the corruption and over-reach of government and drew up a document that limited government. That encroached on the government's ability to over-step it's bounds.

Information is power. The ability to manipulate, to engineer memes and events is power. Washington DC would love for us to toe the line. To obey and behave. To use and consume. They don't want free thinkers or those who have a voice and use it.
They want drones.
Information, data, are the strings that they use to move the puppets. Funny how many here call the president a puppet when it is us, the little people, who have all the strings attached.
DC is the puppet-master.

Unfortunately we are at a point where we can only choose what kind of puppet-master controls us.

But information is power. The more we learn, the more we know, the more we can take back control. We can go back to a time where we were the ones pulling the strings for our "public servants" in DC.

Forgive the long rant, but that is my take on things.

What you are thinking if I am reading this right is a J. Edgar Hoover scenario only for more modern times.

So the question you ask since just about anyone under the Sun can have a file on them for blackmail reasons via NSA is the NSA a security risk

Good question. Plausible.

The first thing that leaps into my mind is the damage caused by a "busting down doors, seizing files" type of investigation. Would this not, in itself, bring down the whole schebang? Hard to find the words to describe my thinking because it would be so huge that nothing could be done. A "too Big To Fail" kind of deal with so many suspects...

Who would be trusted in such an investigation since a lot of people could have "dirt" on them? How would the people behind the scenes be actually held to account when the lower echelons would be running cover. poisoning the well so to speak.

This is just to hard to think about even though it is worth thinking (and acting) upon.

Sadly something like what I can see will never happen. Everything would grind to a halt and the dust storm would last decades.

reply to post by Rocker2013


Everything that has ever been classified (to any extent) has always been subject to the corruption of man. No system is infallible because no human is infallible. As long as there have been secrets there have spies and traitors, and blackmail has always been a useful tool.

The revelations of this new program are alarming and infuriating but the national security implications Americans should be most concerned about are the complete loss of our constitutional protection and the loss of protection by 3 'separate but equal' branches of government. All of the checks and balances designed to protect us from corruption are effectively gone. To me that reality is the most detrimental to our national security.

S&F

reply to post by beezzer


Enjoyed the read but I do have a disagreement of sorts.

I don't look at the government as the top pf the pyramid. I think the government is being steered by people behind the curtain and us used as a "brute squad" or "enforcer" for private entities. We can see this with the multitudes of legislations over decades that have eroded personal freedoms, such as the 1st for example, but there are many more. The Citizens United decision for another where "dark money" can influence elections (and elected officials) and that money can come from ahywhere, even from outside the borders and entire countries can pour money into our elections without illumination when the 1st doesn't even necessarily apply to the originators of these "dark money" funds.

Sure, the government is the spearpoint but there are others that have hold of that spear.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if it were found that NSA and other intelligence entities gain funding through other means outside of the tax base and from private sources. I agree with the "who benefits" question. I also agree with We The People being pretty much taught how to be drones and not rock the boat. It is the governments that set the parameters for this type of society and the idea that goernment is "of the people" has been severely disconnected.

Personally I think it is too late. When we have elected officials telling us that the Patriot Act I and II was enacted in ways not intended it shows that The People are always behind the curve. The people who are aware are denegraded and the Cassandra song is quickly told to shut up.

This NSA flap will soon fade and though some small fry heads may roll, like sacrificial pawns, the kings and queens and supporting cast will continue on, business as usual.

Am I jaded? You betcha.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Rocker2013

 

Everything that has ever been classified (to any extent) has always been subject to the corruption of man. No system is infallible because no human is infallible. As long as there have been secrets there have spies and traitors, and blackmail has always been a useful tool.

I can agree that this has always happened, of course. There is a known and proven history of political espionage.

But, previously there were oversights. There were people in positions to watch over the kind of reach an agency had. The CIA couldn't just listen in on a phone call, they had to get access to the phone, or the system, or place a physical device within a physical room.

Now, the ease with which the NSA can gather data on anyone is startling. Thirty years ago someone would need to get hold of the letter, steam it open, read it, seal it, send it on. They had to get access to that somehow, either by force or collusion. Now, they have everything delivered right to them, in real time, without anyone knowing about it.

How can anyone here know that every email Obama has ever read or sent is not on file with the NSA? How can anyone here ever trust that the NSA hasn't been recording every text message or phone call he's ever made or received? How can anyone be certain that there isn't someone at a desk right now watching Obama's desktop as though it's their own?

Who watches over the NSA?

reply to post by Terminal1


I'm having a difficult time discerning the difference between government and those who wield government like a weapon.

To me, they are one and the same. Whether it is a power broker or a senator or a lobbyist or a billionaire. . .

Those that use political means to exercise power and authority to gain more power and authority at the sake of us are the people we need to fight against.

We have all the tools. We have the weapons. We have the numbers.

(Custer ring any bells? )

We just don't have the will, the drive to use them.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
Who watches over the NSA?

Let's not go too far with the conspiracy theories and fear mongerings. Keep it rational.

In a democracy, it is the elected representatives who forms the Intelligence oversight committees watches over the NSA, its doings and espacially if national security intelligence had been leaked or used against citizens for blackmail or intimidation purposes.

In dictatorships, the ruler sees every important information obtained and those whom displeases him, gets their heads chopped off or hanged as in Iran, thrown into the slammer like Putin's russia, or made to disappear into the night like China.

Every human has a choice to live where they wish. The airports are opened 24/7.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101


In dictatorships, the ruler sees every important information obtained and those whom displeases him,. . .

And then sends the IRS after them?

. . . gets their heads chopped off or hanged as in Iran, thrown into the slammer like Putin's russia, or made to disappear into the night like China.

Every human has a choice to live where they wish. The airports are opened 24/7.

reply to post by beezzer


Please. ATS readers are more discerning than you presumed. They are not fools to be manipulated into stupid causes.

In democracies, IRS CANNOT freely set the tax rates as they wish. If a citizen has paid his due, there is NOTHING the IRS can do, and best yet, the citizen can FREELY take up legal action against any IRS collector for harassment if such harassment is uncalled for.

In dictatorships, taxes are what the dictator decides at any moment.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by beezzer

 

Please. ATS readers are more discerning than you presumed. They are not fools to be manipulated into stupid causes.

In democracies, IRS CANNOT freely set the tax rates as they wish. If a citizen has paid his due, there is NOTHING the IRS can do, and best yet, the citizen can FREELY take up legal action against any IRS collector for harassment if such harassment is uncalled for.

In dictatorships, taxes are what the dictator decides at any moment.

So only in dictatorships can agencies like the IRS harass, delay, profile, target individuals and organisations?

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Yes and that is why more taxes are passed "under the shadows of laws to make it legal" so we do not complain, because we are a free country where you are "volunteer by you governmentinto taxation"

I am laughing my butt off.

When the crocks are the ones making laws everything is legal

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

In a democracy, it is the elected representatives who forms the Intelligence oversight committees watches over the NSA, its doings and espacially if national security intelligence had been leaked or used against citizens for blackmail or intimidation purposes.

That is very text book but misses so much. Do you believe this is infallible and do you believe that corruption has not happened or could never happen?

Every human has a choice to live where they wish. The airports are opened 24/7.

This appears true on the surface but only demonstrates a wealth bias. Not every human has a choice. Not every human has the means to extricate themselves. Many humans (even in the US) barely hang on to what they have. Yes, according to deat text book discussion they could hop on a plane and move to the Cayman's but how many people do? Hardly any because of the cost involved.

Let's not go too far with the conspiracy theories and fear mongerings. Keep it rational.

It did sound pretty rational. Pointing out the Emperor has no cloths is not conspiratorial.

In democracies, IRS CANNOT freely set the tax rates as they wish. If a citizen has paid his due, there is NOTHING the IRS can do, and best yet, the citizen can FREELY take up legal action against any IRS collector for harassment if such harassment is uncalled for.

Again, very text book but implausible on planet Earth. Almost no one can freely take up action against the IRS. Sure the door is open but the cover charge is prohibitive. As complex as the tax codes are, who can claim anyone has honesty paid all his dues? Even if you have, this latest revelation proves it doesn't have to end there. That is the definition of harassment. The IRS works for Congress. If Congress is "shocked, shocked I say" at the IRS, who is the fool for believing those Congressmen on the hearing panels actually give a damn?

Your posts here come off as apologist at best. At worst, in collusion with these traitors by means of deflection.

reply to post by ABNARTY


There is MOST certainly deflection on this thread. But it is not from me. It came from you guys misusing the independent IRS as some sort of the Nazi brownshirt movement.

If one cannot abide by the agreed upon laws of society and the elected representatives right to create laws, espacially those that concerns national security,in a land where there ARE checks and balances, then the airports are open 24/7. There is no wealth bias, as even poor humans who hate their own country can leave by boat. There is no need to resort to inciting others to violence.

Saying the emperor has no clothes when he does not have them on is certainly not conspiratorial. But alluding that he had NO clothes when he does indeed have clothes on is totally irrational, just as alluding NSA, either ignorantly or wifully, is some lone gun unwatched unit is equally irrational.

And come off those unwarranted direct personal insults or accusations if it is a discussion you want. It only makes you look petty, childish and never to be taken seriously except as someone mentally challenged, which I pity and thus my reply to you.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
Who watches over the NSA?

The ODNI, including the DNI, the Inspector General, the General Counsel, and the Civil Liberties and Privacy Office
The National Security Council
The President
The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

reply to post by Rocker2013

The Massive Problem With The National Security Of America,

That indeed it is a big problem.

Is like is as if a fire broke out in a theater, and everyone clamoring , creating panic and thus enhanching out the number of victims.

This is what is happening now days,this way giving free road to other fires to break out in different places around the world.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
In a democracy, it is the elected representatives who forms the Intelligence oversight committees watches over the NSA, its doings and espacially if national security intelligence had been leaked or used against citizens for blackmail or intimidation purposes.

Can you name the people who watch over the NSA?
Can you guarantee me that no one within the NSA has been able to use information against those individuals?
Can you explain to me why so many on both sides are now also calling for investigation into this if everything is above board as you seem to "assume".

You seem to make a lot of assumptions of trust when it comes to your government. That's not a very clever thing to do considering your Constitution is built on the distrust of government.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
In dictatorships, the ruler sees every important information obtained and those whom displeases him, gets their heads chopped off or hanged as in Iran, thrown into the slammer like Putin's russia, or made to disappear into the night like China.

And right now we have Feinstein and others suggesting that the journalists involved in the release of this story be investigated, and there is a criminal case being opened to investigate the supposedly "free press".

This is enshrined in the First Amendment, and yet your government is now threatening the free press and attempting to silence them.

Tell me again about "dictatorship"

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
Every human has a choice to live where they wish. The airports are opened 24/7.

Unless you're on a no-fly list, then you might have some trouble.
And just look at all those peaceful protesters, intellectuals, critics of government and the security state who all happen to be on that no-fly list!

Wow, the USA is sure looking a lot more like the USSA every second, huh?

Originally posted by Rocker2013
Can you name the people who watch over the NSA?
Can you guarantee me that no one within the NSA has been able to use information against those individuals?

Can you present evidence that anyone within the NSA has actually used PRISM information against individuals with oversight responsibility? You can find most of them here, here, here, and here.

reply to post by Rocker2013


You bring a great issue, who is watching over the NSA well that is the one million dollar question, see is not watching over anything, the governmentent or let say the present administration has lost control of its agencies, the secrecy is so big that anybody with enough push, can do whatever our of their arses to do and no congress or president can control what is going on.

That happen what government has gotten so big that the bosses can not oversee what the peons are doing.

What all this leaves is to corruption.

So is watching the watchers? remember that Will smith movie?

This is a matter of semantics.
It's really Government Security, much to the damage of National security which is us, the people.
We are the Nation.
It needs to be torn down never to be rebuilt again.
We already have a CIA and FBI to handle issues of National security.
Why did they create one more layer to watch and rule over all?
I did a little fact checking and it seems the NSA came from the Armed Forces Security Agency (AFSA), created in 1948 by the Military.
Truman ok'd the change in a secret order that was only revealed 5 years later.
If this organization has been the one secretly ruling the country by holding all the cards then we have been under military rule since 1948 (same year the CIA was created).
I don;t know if this was all done in the name of fighting Communism or because of all the Nazis we brought over in project Paperclip but either way it's unconstitutional and has proven itself to be above the law and beyond the reach of our elected officials.
No doubt this was a major reason Eisenhower made his famous "beware the Military-Industrial complex" speech upon leaving office.
He was probably the last President who stood a chance of destroying it as our only 5 star general in history to serve in that office.