It shouldn't matter if you aren't doing anything wrong

I wish to interject something here, and perhaps show how the totalitarian state is rolling out in the UK.

A well planned raid on protesters happened across London yesterday, and in the light of recent events it's looking more sinister than it would have a month ago.

I'll pick out bit of the story that I think is worthy of comment, but you should click through to the following link to read through the rest...

BBC - G8 Summit Protesters Arrested

So you probably know that the G8 Summit is taking place in Northern Ireland next week (you might have seen the story about them wasting money and putting fake shop fronts on empty buildings to make the place look less bleak?)
The protesters in London planned a week of actions, protesting the effects of rampant capitalism and highlighting the behaviors of the leading members of the G8.

So, yesterday there were coordinated raids across London, and 57 people were arrested. Yeah, 57 people arrested for daring to even plan a protest.

Now for the interesting bits...

The arrests were made for alleged possession of an offensive weapon, criminal damage, assault on a police officer, failure to remove a face covering, and possession of articles with intent to commit criminal damage.

If any of you remember the farce of officers at previous protests claiming they sustained injury because a bee stung them, then you know how pathetic these charges are likely to be. It could very well be that someone assaulted a police officer, but I question the vague nature of "failure to remove a face covering" and possession of articles with intent to commit criminal damage".

A set of keys could cause criminal damage, my feet and my hands could cause criminal damage, so as long as a cop can "suspect" that I might use my limbs to cause "damage" I can be arrested and detained?

One man was tackled by police as he tried to jump from the roof of the building saying "I don't want to live in a fascist state", reported the BBC's Mike Sergeant.

The thing that perhaps worries me more is that these were protesters arrested yesterday, across London, and the BBC feels the need to write one little biased piece about it. That's it, all there is. 57 young people were dragged from a squat, and from other places across the capital, on vague charges, because they planned to protest, and the BBC basically puts up a press release from the Met and says nothing.

When a country can see that many protesters arrested before their feet even touch the street in protest there is something massively wrong, but when the media doesn't even investigate, doesn't ask questions, doesn't want to find out who they are or what they've actually been charged with, it's even worse!

I'm with that young man on the roof. I don't want to live in a fascist state either, and as dramatic and naive as that young man might sound, he has a f'ing point!

Originally posted by Briles1207
I am more angry that the OP is stating that people who arent bothered by this as it is not affecting their lives, are somehow moronic.

This is why I made the nudging in this thread about "overt provocation" and "public insult".

If we let go of the premise that the intent of the thread is to come to comprehension those who do not feel the same on this issue......

And that instead, the intent is to strike up discussion with them, and try to change their minds, to convince them to feel differently.....

Then the OP could have come up with a more direct and effective method!
This kind of action will attract the objectors, yes... but it also pushes them further into their opposition- which is the opposite of the intent.

If you consider that each of us is an example of whatever ideas, concepts, positions, (memes) we believe in and would like to spread, then how you behave is going to influence your success at doing so.

If you see someone just randomly making assertions like the "moron" comments, do you ask yourself- "Gee, I want to be like that person! Let's look at the kinds of beliefs, principles, morals, vales and causes they have, which formed such a genial personality! I could learn how to be more like him!"

No... most will feel turned off right from the start- you won't be convincing anyone today.




...unless the intent is not to comprehend, nor to convince.... but simply to clash in conflict with no chance of synthesis ever. Then this approach is super duper!


( an informative and clear OP on the reasons one should consider this issue as important to them, without unecessary insult and dishonesty about comprehension, would have been the more effective route, by far)

for the record, i am by no means wealthy, or privileged...i'm in less peril than most, because i know how to pay attention to my surroundings, and don't put my entire life out there on the net, for all to see..

now then..

Originally posted by Bluesma

I made no claim of victimization (I do not believe in victimization), both you and the other poster tried to turn this into a personal slant and it didn't work- let's stay on topic.

On page 8 you said:

Originally posted by Bluesma
Oh stop the childish attempts at painting the woman as "emotional". That is a useless tactic in debate, and cowardly. I never claimed it was about me, and did not feel it was.

That sounds like a claim of personal victimization to me..

If you can't be honest, i can't continue this conversation..

good day to you, ma'am.

Fefe (German hacker/blogger) asks why the CEOs of the big companies don't just refuse to cooperate when approached by the NSA and links to an email by John Gilmore who gives the example of Joseph P. Nacchio, chairman of QWest who refused to cooperate in 2001 and got "punished" by the DoJ, he's in jail now. Gilmore also refers to the book "Three felonies a day: how the feds target the innocent" by Harvey Silverglate, of which a very interesting exerpt can be read online.

tldr; It doesn't matter if you are doing anything wrong or not. "Show me the man and I'll find you the crime", as Lavrentiy Beria put it. Federal law has become so vague that you commit three felonies a day without knowing it, a development Justice Jackson has foreseen and tried to stop.

I think this is a point that too many won't get until it's too late.

Originally posted by Daedalus
for the record, i am by no means wealthy, or privileged...i'm in less peril than most, because i know how to pay attention to my surroundings, and don't put my entire life out there on the net, for all to see..

now then..

Originally posted by Bluesma

I made no claim of victimization (I do not believe in victimization), both you and the other poster tried to turn this into a personal slant and it didn't work- let's stay on topic.

On page 8 you said:

Originally posted by Bluesma
Oh stop the childish attempts at painting the woman as "emotional". That is a useless tactic in debate, and cowardly. I never claimed it was about me, and did not feel it was.

That sounds like a claim of personal victimization to me..

If you can't be honest, i can't continue this conversation..

good day to you, ma'am.

LOL! Then you have mistaken a claim of being victimized with a claim that one is diverting attention away from the debate at hand when they haven't a response to an argument! (using ad hominem)

In your misrepresenting my position as being okay with "anyone, anytime, anywhere" transgressing my privacy, that was also a diversion tactic, known as a "straw man".

It is amazing how many different ways a person can try to avoid responding to an argument and being response-able!

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by Daedalus
for the record, i am by no means wealthy, or privileged...i'm in less peril than most, because i know how to pay attention to my surroundings, and don't put my entire life out there on the net, for all to see..

now then..

Originally posted by Bluesma

I made no claim of victimization (I do not believe in victimization), both you and the other poster tried to turn this into a personal slant and it didn't work- let's stay on topic.

On page 8 you said:

Originally posted by Bluesma
Oh stop the childish attempts at painting the woman as "emotional". That is a useless tactic in debate, and cowardly. I never claimed it was about me, and did not feel it was.

That sounds like a claim of personal victimization to me..

If you can't be honest, i can't continue this conversation..

good day to you, ma'am.

LOL! Then you have mistaken a claim of being victimized with a claim that one is diverting attention away from the debate at hand when they haven't a response to an argument! (using ad hominem)

In your misrepresenting my position as being okay with "anyone, anytime, anywhere" transgressing my privacy, that was also a diversion tactic, known as a "straw man".

It is amazing how many different ways a person can try to avoid responding to an argument and being response-able!

edit on 12-6-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

this will be my last reply to you in this thread.

i was not trying to "distract" from anything...i was simply pointing out that you are not being intellectually honest....under that condition, no serious debate can take place. i was also not misrepresenting anything..your posts clearly state that you are not as concerned about the massive breech of privacy that this represents, as others participating in this thread. however, that is not surprising, because you are not here...thus, it does not affect you in the same way, if at all...

under THAT condition, it is a waste of time to debate the subject with you, because you cannot, and apparently WILL not be open to any other way of seeing things that doesn't fit into your established norms....

Nice edit by the way....very slick.

again, good day to you, ma'am..

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by Daedalus
for the record, i am by no means wealthy, or privileged...i'm in less peril than most, because i know how to pay attention to my surroundings, and don't put my entire life out there on the net, for all to see..

now then..

Originally posted by Bluesma

I made no claim of victimization (I do not believe in victimization), both you and the other poster tried to turn this into a personal slant and it didn't work- let's stay on topic.

On page 8 you said:

Originally posted by Bluesma
Oh stop the childish attempts at painting the woman as "emotional". That is a useless tactic in debate, and cowardly. I never claimed it was about me, and did not feel it was.

That sounds like a claim of personal victimization to me..

If you can't be honest, i can't continue this conversation..

good day to you, ma'am.

LOL! Then you have mistaken a claim of being victimized with a claim that one is diverting attention away from the debate at hand when they haven't a response to an argument! (using ad hominem)

In your misrepresenting my position as being okay with "anyone, anytime, anywhere" transgressing my privacy, that was also a diversion tactic, known as a "straw man".

It is amazing how many different ways a person can try to avoid responding to an argument and being response-able!

edit on 12-6-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Seriously? The only person in this thread who has no response to the arguments presented and is resorting to diversion, is you. You don't even want to talk about the issue or defend your position. Your continued presence in the discussion revolves entirely around the fact you feel insulted or that I have insulted people who share your apathy. If you're after an apology you wont be getting one in this life or the next.

Historical reminder regarding complacency:

Hitler's rise to power did not happen overnight. It happened gradually, over the years. There are things we tolerate now that we never ever ever would have tolerated as a society pre-9/11. If the changes occur over a long period of time, and seem innocent enough, the public will be more accepting. People need to realize just how powerful propaganda is. And the vehicles in which consensus can be molded and altered are far more powerful today than they were back in the 1930's. TV and the internet are exponentially more powerful than leaflets.

Anyway, I digress. Here is a tidbit from Angela Merkel regarding this topic:

On the 80th anniversary of Adolf Hitler’s rise to power, Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans to always fight for their principles and not fall into the complacency that enabled the Nazi dictator to seize control. Speaking Wednesday at the opening of a new exhibit at the Topography of Terror memorial documenting Hitler’s election, Merkel noted that German academics and students at the time happily joined the Nazis only a few months later in burning books deemed subversive. “The rise of the Nazis was made possible because the elite of German society worked with them, but also, above all else, because most in Germany at least tolerated this rise,” Merkel said.

What may seem innocuous enough on its own, isn't so much when you look at the big picture. Just. Anyone who thinks this isn't a big deal and wasn't a big deal years ago when it first came to light, should step back and reassess in the frame of history.

The only difference now, is that the very very powerful media are hitting people over the head with this news and that seems to be the only way for many to take notice, if even for a brief few days.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph


Seriously? The only person in this thread who has no response to the arguments presented and is resorting to diversion, is you. You don't even want to talk about the issue or defend your position. Your continued presence in the discussion revolves entirely around the fact you feel insulted or that I have insulted people who share your apathy. If you're after an apology you wont be getting one in this life or the next.

I will give my argument again, though I have done so now multiple times, in multiple wordings, with multiple examples.

Your issue here (along with various others, such as climate change, nuclear waste, water availability, overpopulation, survival of certain animal species, etc.) is one which is relatively "abstract" to many people. The scope is so large, over space and time, that it takes some mental imagery and construction of "what if" scenarios and potentials to understand the future impact.

Other issues people grapple with are more immediate in scope and reaction- their effects can be seen, heard, felt every day, and become more pressing for individuals, as well as taking less internal focus.

If they must find a way to pay their bill this month or lose their house,
If their loved one struggles to stay alive in the hospital,
A child faces possible failure at school,
If they are fighting to get a job,
Or to find a mode of transport to get them to a job,

then your issue, and it's neccesary imaginative work just seem like a waste of time and energy that is needed elsewhere.

That is my explanation, to answer to your "bewilderment" and lack of understanding.
(Look again, I repeated it in each post!)

Then I suggested to you how to overcome that obstacle-

Do the work for them! Write out a concise and informative post, explaining exactly why and how this issue is pressing. Leave out insults and name calling which will divert from your point. Leave out comments of their down to earth immediate concerns being invalid or not meaningful.

-If possible illustrate how these concerns may be effected by this particular issue, if that is true.

-If you have any sense, you will consider the possibility that those other crises of daily living have been provoked by the government for exactly that reason, and include that in your argumentation

As I said the first time you and the other poster accused me of being "emotional" or taking those insults as directed at/for me- This issue does not pertain to me too much, as I am out of the US, and really am very limited to usage of telephone and internet anyway.
I do not count myself as one of the "detractors" of this issue, and did not consider myself as included in the moron insults and such. I simply pointed out to you that you are shooting yourself in the foot there.

I sometimes think it is too bad to see a worthy subject be presented so badly that it looks like it isn't, and makes even more people reject it. But continue on with useless clash here, it seems that was your only real intent.

Maybe my words can inspire someone else a bit better at this kind of thing to start their own thread, which could have a chance at informing and influencing minds.