Fluoride in drinking water.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by Sankari

 

Surely you would agree that people have the right to choose wether they are medicated or not. It is not plausible for you to suggest that people simply collect their own water for drinking. In many places this is simply not possible and in others it is illegal..

and you think this stuff is good for you.

Good thing they put fluoride in the water supply all over the United States of America, including here in Boulder where I live. In a study published July 20 online in Environmental Health Perspectives, a US National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences’ journal, the researchers found, amongst other things that: The children in high fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ than those who lived in low fluoride areas.

libertyblitzkrieg.com...

Looks to me like a great way of dumbing down a population...

You are very right of it being used to dumb down the population if excessive fluoride is consumed. It can help a person to be smarter in the right consideration though, it is a mild antidepressant in organic form. It can be used this way to dampen a person's overthinking. That is one of the things that is a plus in moderate consumption of coffee or tea. Tea has a higher fluoride content than coffee though. Using fluoridated water to make coffee can cause an imbalance though, it tips the scale a bit.

I am 100 percent against adding fluoride to drinking water, it is the wrong kind of fluoride and it has an accumulative effect because it often adds fluoride ions to whatever is cooked in it.

reply to post by rickymouse


You can buy fluoridated salt as well.

reply to post by superman2012


You need the chloride for stomach acid. Fluoride actually reacts negatively with stomach acid if it is not bound to organics. Even then, drinking too much coffee can give a person some heartburn from the hydrofluoric acid produced. So since the fluoride in the water is causing problems with people's stomach acid, they want people to stop using salt, a necessary ingredient in most people's diet. Sure lowering salt will make you feel better since it reacts with the fluoride that they force on everyone. Use stupidity to fix what stupidity created. It's like using a band-aide to patch a tire.:shk:

reply to post by rickymouse


I have yet to see any sources that show that in small amounts (like those found in treated water) it is harmful. Yes yes, we have all seen and heard about the 600 professionals (not scientists) and the asian studies cited by harvard, but where are the hard facts by an IMPARTIAL third party with the research released to look over?

Edit: I noticed you said the wrong kind of fluoride is being added...what is the right one? What are your credentials that over 50 years of research is wrong but you are right?

reply to post by superman2012


The right kind of fluoride is the kind plants make in nature. Organic fluorides are alright, but even then boosting the fluoride by adding fluoridated water is not good. We evolved with nature, that is why we should utilize systems nature provides. If you make soup out of a soup bone that was boiled for hours, all the minerals for bone developement in humans are in the soup. Humans have been eating soups for thousands of years. We have evolved to process them in our bodies. If the balance of fluoride is off with minerals that belong with it in the body, there will be problems with our bones.

You aren't going to find many articles that state that fluoride will kill you but there are plenty of articles out there that are real research to show the long term toxicity of added fluoride. You may not see the problems show up for thirty years then all of a sudden you have Osteoporosis when you never should have had it. You may wind up with burning in the esophagus and possibly esophageal cancer. There are quite a few conditions out there that are worsened by quick absorbing fluoride added to the diet. There is plenty of evidence and even some proven problems associated with fluoride. On top of that, there is human nature, I know someone who added the max amount of fluoride allowable to the water supply when he worked there, because evidence showed that more was better. 4 PPM is too much yet people were drinking the water. Also, they measure the fluoride they add, not the calcium fluoride that is already in the water, that is not nearly as bioactive so they don't consider that hardly at all. The government has recently reduced it's recommended amount....How many people who have been brainwashed to believe it's great for people will voluntarily reduce the amount they add. Some think they are doing their fellow citizens a favor by keeping it high since it is...Harmless... If there is one thing I know...it's people. I have worked with a lot of different people and know how most think. I am not a headshrinker but I can predict how common people will react most times from experience with them.

Add up all the percentages and divide by two. All the problems that can occur from chronic fluoride poisoning. Say you have a one out of a hundred chance of problems occuring amongst people and there are a hundred possible problems or side effects possible. That means they add up to a hundred, then divide by two. That makes up or the odds. One out of two people will somehow be effected negatively by fluoride added to the water in their lifetimes. Since everyone is different, this is why I divided it by two. Some may only be people sucking on antacids, many will be from problems associated with lowering salt consumption because of the stomach's acid being a problem with fluoride consumption. That reduction of sodium could make some people more susceptible to brain or spinal swelling, dehydration problems, and a pile more. Fluoride in an acid stomach is a proven problem, not speculation. Got a little heart burn? Drink some water so it can get worse or take a tums so the calcium attaches to the fluoride where it should have been in the first place instead of the way they added it.

reply to post by rickymouse

I know someone who added the max amount of fluoride allowable to the water supply when he worked there, because evidence showed that more was better. 4 PPM is too much yet people were drinking the water. Also, they measure the fluoride they add, not the calcium fluoride that is already in the water, that is not nearly as bioactive so they don't consider that hardly at all.

I'm sorry but I call BS on this unless it was a looooong time ago. What year and what area was this person adding fluoride to the water unregulated as well as none of the raw water being tested before adding any chemicals? You cannot know what to add or take out of water unless you have analyzed the raw water that you are treating. I'm sorry to call BS on this and I hope you don't take it personally, but I believe you are making things up to make your story sound better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

reply to post by superman2012


Three years ago. The maximum allowed fluoride level allowed is 4 ppm, he was not bypassing regulations, he was just keeping it just below the max. As far as the natural fluorides in water, it appears that they don't have to be counted if they are below a certain point and only adding about 1 ppm. I suppose he was counting natural fluorides when keeping the level high. I'm not going to say where this info came from, I'm not getting anyone into trouble. Everything was perfectly legal.

I just read some regulations on this, everything he said checks out as allowable. I wasn't exactly sure on why natural fluorides didn't have to be tested. I guess samples do have to be sent to the state every so often for testing to make sure they are below 4 ppm. Calcium fluoride naturally present in ground water has a very low rate of absorption, it's numbers are not considered many times in the testing procedures as long as they aren't real high.

By the way, I may repeat what I hear from people who are working in the trades without completely verifying facts, but I never make things up. I ask a lot of questions and do a lot of research. Go down to the water plant in your town and ask some questions.

Originally posted by icanhearmusic
Recently a district in my country has stopped adding fluoride to the water supply. My initial thoughts are 'Great' however this has not gone down well with the health officials.

I feel like water should be natural and we should benefit from its natural goodness, not some manufactured tampered liquid. The biggest argument from the opposition is that this will cause some sort of 'Tooth decay epidemic'. Really? people should have the choice whether they want to have additives put in their drinking water. Is brushing you not enough now days??

What are peoples thoughts on fluoride in drinking water? i might be looking at this the wrong way....

Link to article

edit on 6-6-2013 by icanhearmusic because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-6-2013 by icanhearmusic because: (no reason given)

If you drank natural non adulterated water from a public system, you would get sick pretty quickly. Could boil it I suppose.

Fair point tho, I have never been in favor of mass medication, and as you say there would not even be an issue if people cared for their teeth. Or if needed could be supplemented like in multi vitamins of something.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by superman2012

 

Three years ago. The maximum allowed fluoride level allowed is 4 ppm, he was not bypassing regulations, he was just keeping it just below the max. As far as the natural fluorides in water, it appears that they don't have to be counted if they are below a certain point and only adding about 1 ppm. I suppose he was counting natural fluorides when keeping the level high. I'm not going to say where this info came from, I'm not getting anyone into trouble. Everything was perfectly legal.

I just read some regulations on this, everything he said checks out as allowable. I wasn't exactly sure on why natural fluorides didn't have to be tested. I guess samples do have to be sent to the state every so often for testing to make sure they are below 4 ppm. Calcium fluoride naturally present in ground water has a very low rate of absorption, it's numbers are not considered many times in the testing procedures as long as they aren't real high.

By the way, I may repeat what I hear from people who are working in the trades without completely verifying facts, but I never make things up. I ask a lot of questions and do a lot of research. Go down to the water plant in your town and ask some questions.

edit on 1-7-2013 by rickymouse because: (no reason given)

I go down to the water plant on a full time basis, I work there.

The reason I was asking those questions was because it didn't sound right. The MAC in the US is 4 mg/L or PPM, but there is stringent testing of the raw water before treating it to make sure that you are dosing the chemicals properly. Also, stringent testing afterwards.

The way you typed it out before made it sound like he was doing it willy nilly and I apologize for "calling BS", it just smelled like it.

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by Philippines

 

Again, I understand what you are saying, but this thread was started saying that fluoride is harmful with not enough information to back it up, it was never brought up in the OP whether or not people should have the choice (and they do if they vote).

Fluoride is added as a preventative measure for tooth decay. There are millions of poor people (especially kids) that cannot afford proper dental care. This is one very small step in trying to help them. If they can't afford dental care, then they sure as heck cannot afford healthcare, and when they get sick from lack of dental care, who do you think pays for their hospital visit?

When it comes to bottled water you have a list of ingredients on the back of the water bottle so you can make an informed decision. It's been awhile since I've lived in the US, but does the public water utility company(s) provide a list of ingredients on the water bill, or some other location to be informed of what is in that water?

Not directed at me, but, yes they do. Anyone can come to the water treatment plant that I work at and I will show them exactly what is taken out of the water, and exactly what we put into the water, down to the .01 mg/L. We have to test the water daily and record everything for it, including dosages. All people have to do is not be lazy and find out by going to either the local elected officials office, or to the water treatment plant. Unfortunately, we only ever hear about stuff like this when scared people hear the word "fluoride" and they aren't sure why it is being added.

PS- Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about the pic of the fluoride label, I just haven't been to that treatment plant yet.

I know what you mean too, but I am against it. I appreciate you understanding my beliefs as well =)

Just using the basic toothbrush without any toothpaste is better than nothing. I don't think drinking fluoridated water will change peoples hygienic behaviors. If they don't brush/floss their teeth with or without fluoridated toothpaste will most likely result in cavities in their teeth - because they didn't clean them. I would love to see someone do a study over a year of someone not brushing their teeth (drinking fluoridated water) vs. someone who brushes their teeth with unfluoridated toothpaste and does not drink fluoridated water. I wonder who will have more dental caries? I think the mere action of brushing alone is more effective at fighting cavities than fluoridated water. Just my opinion though =)

I look forward to the pics, glad you haven't forgotten!

Edit: I believe the water treatment plants test their water daily, their mission is clean, safe water I'm sure. Do the treatment plants make this information available more easy than having to visit the office personally? Like online, or anywhere else?

reply to post by Philippines

All of it is online, at the town/city office or at the water plant itself. Also, the environment office makes it available to the public. Anyone can, and should, ask to see what is going into the water, and what they are taking out of the water and also to see how the treatment process works in their city/town.

reply to post by rickymouse

...hydrofluoric acid produced...

Are you sure is not something else? Hydrofluoric acid eats thru tissues, production in stomach is instant death.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by rickymouse

 

...hydrofluoric acid produced...

Are you sure is not something else? Hydrofluoric acid eats thru tissues, production in stomach is instant death.

Very small amounts of that get formed when fluoride is ingested, according to research I have read. It seems only to effect the valve at the upper end of the stomach. The inflamed valve allows stomach acid to enter the esophogus and then it causes GERD or acid reflux diseases in some people. This used to happen to people who drank excessive coffee and tea in the past. It is dependent on there being adequate levels of stomach acid, those with low stomach acid will likely not be effected. Hydrofluoric acid is formed by mixing HCL with fluorides.

This doesn't always have to manifest though, lowering salt intake will allow less HCL to form. There is also chloride in water though but I am not sure of the effect of that chloride, The article I read was not an article about fluoridated water, it was an article about the consumption of organic fluorides in foods and beverages contributing to esophogeal cancer. If fluoride in water contributes to the GERD, GERD contributes to tooth decay, this would mean that fluoride can contribute to bad teeth in people who consume too much.

I know too much coffee does cause heartburn, been there too many times. It also causes a horse throat sometimes. I suspect that tea made with fluoridated water would have much higher levels than coffee.

I wouldn't worry about this, just don't eat a lot of salt if you consume fluoridated water. This problem is caused by the chloride, not the sodium, most processed food has high levels of sodium like MSG and sodium erithrobate which will not cause this problem. It poisons you a different way

Sodium fluoride may be a better choice to stop this process, I suspect that the sodium ion will combine with the chloride from the acid and neutralize stomach acid better than hydrofluorosicilic acid does. The Sodium without the chloride in these chemistries can cause a reduction in acidity making it more possible for bacteria to take hold in the stomach. The whole thing is a mess, but you have to remember....lowering stomach acid makes people less irritable and I suspect less apt to challenge authority. Lots is known about food chemistry, and most applied chemistry is done to try to keep people mellow, even though it hurts a minority of people.

I agree that people should get along and food chemistry to keep people happy and mellow is good, I just do not agree with the systems they are using.

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by Philippines

 

All of it is online, at the town/city office or at the water plant itself. Also, the environment office makes it available to the public. Anyone can, and should, ask to see what is going into the water, and what they are taking out of the water and also to see how the treatment process works in their city/town.

I tried searching for this information in let's say Austin, tx. What keywords should be used to find the webpage for tap water there to see the daily water plant assays etc. I think it would be great to see daily water updates online, but I am probably not using the right keywords to search with, I don't really know the terms.

I've visited a water plant in my early years of life and was a bit frightened lol.

reply to post by rickymouse


Could you link me to an Article regarding the production of HF in human body? i did 4 yrs in university and never came across as HF as nothing but pure deadly. They even have emergency response specially designed for HF contact, even as small as a tiny droplet, that can penetrate your tissue and react with bones and cause cardiac arrest.

Not debating your claim, i just want to indulge myself in the information.

Sorry for off topic!

reply to post by Philippines


Hopefully this link takes you there.

reply to post by luciddream


I can probably google it, it was during my research on tea consumption I think. Could have been coffee also. I'll have to check out if I can find the article, I spend a lot of time reading European and Asian research. I'll try to see if I can find it.

reply to post by luciddream


Here is one site that addresses the chemical reaction. I have to find one addressing the effect of the HF on the upper valve of the stomach. I wish I could remember what exactly I was researching when I found that information. A little fluoride in food is not bad, increasing the levels in the diet is what causes this problem. It appears from this article that I may have been off thinking Sodium Fluoride may be better though.

OOps...answers.yahoo.com...


Edit again. I found this article which addresses a similar issue in "an antifluoride site" but it does list evidence. I can't seem to find the article that addresses the effect on the stomach valve though, it probably is a similar process, I seem to remember it caused inflamation. I extensively studied the good and bad properties of coffee and tea about ten months ago, I think this is where I found out about the valve then followed up on it by comparing it to the same or similar reactions to what was happening in fluoridated water.


OOps again www.fluoride-class-action.com... Been eating a little too much ham, too many glutamates is fun

reply to post by rickymouse


Thanks for the link, interesting enough i cannot find much article focusing on this. Need to discuss with some of my colleagues.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Thanks for the link, interesting enough i cannot find much article focusing on this. Need to discuss with some of my colleagues.

Here is another one, this one has little arrows to scroll through the pages. I was reading in section five just now and of course, since there is no existing recognized research conducted on the levels of fluoride utilized in water, the correlation on their findings cannot conclude that fluoride in water is bad for you.www.nap.edu... After about page 86 or so.