The End of Consumerism?

reply to post by Openeye

Barter systems only work in small communities.

Correct! Yay! Perfect.

Do you honestly think New York City could function on a barter system? A city of over 9 million people?

Only on a neighborhood level.

I think this country is too big, and states are even too big. I'm for small communities helping each other out, and cooperating and looking after the less-able and children.
Even a child can sweep a walk in exchange for a picture book.

We all have a LOT of stuff lying around (if we're not already destitute and homeless - thank capitalism for THAT reality)....
that we don't use, or could share.
star for your input, anyway.....
thanks

reply to post by Openeye

How would a barter system benefit large manufactures?

It wouldn't. But it would promote so-called "cottage industries."

The ones who actually build the equipment we need in a modern society.

They can be "paid" in-kind - with housing, food, clothing, on-site day care, etc.

I doubt that such a system could support the efforts of energy production, or electronics manufacturing.

Think about it some more.
It could work.

reply to post by wildtimes

I think this country is too big, and states are even too big. I'm for small communities helping each other out, and cooperating and looking after the less-able and children.

The country is too big? Well, there is not much we can do about that. Human population rates are progressive and only get larger and larger. There is no way we can revert to some sort of agrarian-socialist society, it is impossible.

if we're not already destitute and homeless - thank capitalism for THAT reality

It is not because of capitalism that there are homeless individuals. There were far more homeless and destitute individuals in the preidustrial era than there are now.

Not to mention the time we live in is the most prosperous time in human history especially in the western world. Even in third world counties there is drastic improvement being made in terms of civil rights, clean water access, electricity, and general health.

It wouldn't. But it would promote so-called "cottage industries."

And how would a so-called "cottage industry" produce multiple satellites? Or better yet the technology to produce a delivery system for them?

Or how about steel production? Oil drilling? Jets? Cars?

See where I'm going with this?

There is no way a small workshop can produce a space shuttle or even a freighter to trade materials overseas. Sure they could produce simple goods (i.e. shoes, candles, clothing, etc), but nothing on the level of major engineering.

We could use something as simple as food.There is no way you could feed the population of Los Angeles with communal farming and "natural" (I use that word loosely) agriculture practices.

They can be "paid" in-kind - with housing, food, clothing, on-site day care, etc.

There is no way, I would love for you to provide me an example of this. How is a oil provider supposed to supply itself with the materials it needs to actually extract, refine and transport its product?

Think about it some more.
It could work.

Only in a land where rainbows and faeries give magic cupcakes to everyone who asks for them, not in reality.

Again unless you can supply with an example of a society that actually used a barter system that is more successful then our modern one.

Originally posted by Sankari
Love it or hate it, consumerism will never die because it's predicated on an eternal principle: humans are greedy.

And no-one ever went broke selling stuff to greedy people.

I'm selling 80% of my PA system and some other medium ticket items
right now online to attempt to avoid eviction... the rationale is having
convinced my landlord I can get them 7 cents on the dollar instead of 3.
You want to go broke? Better than work for greedy people, sell your
seed corn FOR them to allow the roof over your head.
The eternal principle is flawed, SOME humans are greedy.

reply to post by Openeye

There is no way

No way?

Yes, way!

'no way' we can revert to some sort of agrarian-socialist society

Revert?

Erm...... yes, we can. Evidence is: right now, today!, people getting by with what they have, trading and bartering! Their skills, their 'stuff', their products.

it is impossible.

Impossible?

No. It's not impossible.

Not much of an imagination there, friend. It'll be okay. Even if we go to a barter system. It'll be okay.

reply to post by Openeye

The country is too big?

Yes.

Well, there is not much we can do about that. Human population rates are progressive and only get larger and larger.

We can break up the 'too-big' country into smaller countries (kinda like.....i dunno....STATES? counties? )
Do you know where the term 'county' comes from?

It's been done, and it's worked at LEAST as well as 'modern consumerism.'

In both eras, however, the WORKING PEOPLE were exploited to line the pockets of the 'nobility'.

Not joking.

The working people are STILL being exploited by 'the nobility', and
IT
IS
SICKENING.

Sorry. Freedom of speech.
Ya know.

Barter sounds great, but here are some things to consider:

If the MSM is talking about it , then it is already "above the radar". When a government is going broke, they will reach out for more control and tax everything in sight in order to stay afloat. The gov' considers barter as a form of TAX EVASION! On a large enough scale charges could be escalated to a form of economic terrorism. Consider how Bitcoin was hit by the feds once it got above the radar , because it is considered a threat to thier system. Any form of independence is viewed as a threat. Remember the guy who paid his employees in the face value of silver coins therfore only paid the icome tax on the face value.. the feds went after him too.

Barter should be kept descrete and not advertised. Like I said, barter is good but don't invite the swat team over just because you thought it was cool to publicly announce on facebook how you are sticking it to the man.

Originally posted by wildtimes

Okay, cool. You can rent out a room, or a dress, or your car, or an unused vacation condo - these ARE NOT NEW ideas, folks! Back in the 70s and 80s it was very common for people to "share" - and they still do.

Young people and adults share housing - been done forever.
Cars are shared by households, borrowed by friends, etc.
"Yes, you can borrow my dress for your date."
"Hey, can I borrow your air compressor to wash my boat?"

We've been doing it for YEARS - DECADES.

Heheh....but the Baby Boomers are known for their tendancy to make a big deal out of whatever they are currently doing, and loudly proclaiming it as a "new" or revolutionary morally superior act. It was predicted that they'd continue to do so right on into their elder years, and they are.

I´ve noticed this trend also, already couple of years ago.

The millennials are growing up. The extreme costs of higher education in US, the ADHD, internet are all playing a huge role. For this generation starting their life is one of the hardest of all time.

The mentality of the youth is also very different from the previous generations and the current system does not suit them.The career perspectives are low and require lots of time, on the other hand grinding through 8-5 workdays decades in a row like many of previous generation has done, is also unacceptable.

The whole self-help, mass-media, everything like that has led youth to believe they have to do what they want. When the market does not suit their needs, they create one

I´ve learned a lot about different trends coming in the next years. One of them is believed to be in the work-force. Soon there will be a huge deficiency of skilled workers, which creates an opportunity for the employees to dictate the conditions at work. It is currently already happening in certain sectors, although it will rise a lot. Also changing jobs will happen far more. When people used to work decades in the same job, that is not gonna work anymore. It is predicted for this generation and the next ones, jobs would change every couple of years, whether internationally or locally.

Another trend predicted is the popularity of worker-owned companies. There are some big ones already in Europe, which have proved these work. More and more are being started in the country where I live, I guess it is quite the same in other EU countries. This generation seems to be much more entrepreneur-oriented than the previous ones, although there seems to much less greed and much more focus on environmental actions, especially from the smarter ones.

Whether during this generation or when next one, something is bound to happen in the coming years, maybe in a decade. The youth unemployment is extreme, while mentalites and views on life have changed too much compared to previous generation.

reply to post by wildtimes


Funny that electronics is mentioned ...

A huge factor that comes into play with this is the manufacturing processes, and it is twofold:

(1) One part of it has to do with the horrendous conditions and poor QA that go into making the components themselves.

I won't take potshots at any particular company. Let's just say that I've worked closely with CSA inspectors as well as some of the vendors directly, and quite often these are dirt-floor factories that are more reminiscent of an episode of Sanford & Son than they are of an Intel commercial or a walk around the main floor at Celestica.

Sometimes they try to grease the wheel to overlook certain things or get a pass, most of the time they do not. They do not follow drawings, or pay attention to ratings/tolerances, and are lax with their testing procedures to the point that it's amazing that they turn out any working product at all.

It is not restricted to just electronic parts, either. Our design team labored for months with a ray trace program to determine just the right material and shape for some lenses. We sent the drawing over to our contractor, and what we got back was an utter joke. It (I guess) sort of looked like what we had in the drawing, but it was totally obvious that they did not even try to make it to specifications and one did not need a caliper to prove this - I mean, the lens (the curvature of which was warped beyond redemption) did not even mate properly with the base, which was its most basic feature.

The upper echelon at a company I used to work for got bit by the overseas is cheaper bug and it turned around to bite them hard - the amount of time and money we spent on fielding customer complaints and performing rework in our own factory caused the company to eventually sell off that entire line at a loss to be rid of it. Never again.

All of this is just focusing on the manufacture of the parts themselves - just extrapolate these practices to the assembly environment and I think you'll get the picture. Speaking of...

(2) The second part of it has to do with the improvement in the manufacturing processes that go into products that are actually worth fixing should they happen to fail.

Nowadays, it requires specialized equipment just to work on miniaturized and SMT design. Most of the local mom & pop repair shops went the way of the dinosaur along with through-hole technology.

Here are some of the parts I work with regularly, and keep in mind that these are HUGE (0805) in comparison to some of the other parts out there:



These are OSRAM LED SMDs - very awesome quality, I might add. In order to work with these without destroying them, you need the right equipment, conditions, and an awful lot of skill:



Here's a Metcal MX-Talon. These, or their equivalent, are the bare minimum I would require for repair and rework for these kinds of devices. You need a precise temperature control and delivery system just to remove the old part without damaging the PCB traces.

For the bigger stuff:



This runs circles around older, traditional methods of rework like desoldering braids and hand-operated vacuum pumps (the trusty Edsyn Soldapullt still has its uses, don't get excited). Again - precision temperature control and delivery combined with the high psi from a compressor. It spoils me, this.

Something more elaborate:



Here are some really, really old (relatively speaking) ALCATEL BGAs. We used to use precision hot air delivery systems to remove, reball, and replace these babies but this process has been superseded by IR reflow. Some of the solders used with these are very difficult to work with and require precise timings for the preheat and (re)flow stages lest you burn the chip up or fail to get a good (re)flow which means you get to do it again.

Whew!

I did not mean to ramble on for as long as I did in this post. My point is, even if the electronic parts themselves weren't utter junk to begin with, it takes a much higher degree of skill to work on the modern electronics of today. Many techs would even scoff at my equipment and call it archaic.

Yet, not a week goes by that one person or another I run into locally complains about how their electronics fails and how it is impossible to find someone like me that can even make an honest attempt at a repair.

So to the young kids out there - put down your XBOX for a while and start boning up on engineering and industrial processes. There is a fortune to be had, if you have the desire.

reply to post by TimeOfZera


I totally agree with you....that's what I was just talking to Mr. wildtimes about.

Oh, so, now the 'spoiled brat "sex in the city" kids' can figure out a way to make big bucks?!!

It DOES need to stay under the radar. I tried to make that clear earlier....
but yeah....

shows ya who they consider to be their 'audience' - ignoring the people who've been doing this their whole liives - and now making it 'public'? To the tune of 'Billions per year'???

That's why I said in the OP that I can see the potential to cause damage.....
ETA:
Or....are you pointing out how smart we are???

Sorry, confused.

reply to post by Bluesma

but the Baby Boomers are known for their tendancy to make a big deal out of whatever they are currently doing, and loudly proclaiming it as a "new" or revolutionary morally superior act.

?????
Erm, Bluesma?
What are you talking about?
We aren't 'currently doing this' any more than we already were, before the yuppies of today were even here.
I'm wondering why CNN is publishing this as a "big new idea" -
but I think it's because the 'kids' don't want to realize it's not a new idea.

Fine. If they want to think they invented it (like EVERY generation wants to do), let them.

I'm feeling a bit 'disenfranchised' and 'dis-ed' in general.
I thought you and I were peers?!!

Oh well! Go have a ride and think of me! I envy your life!!!

reply to post by wildtimes

Erm...... yes, we can. Evidence is: right now, today!, people getting by with what they have, trading and bartering! Their skills, their 'stuff', their products.

I'll ask again.

Please provide me an example of a society that functions off a barter system that is more successful then our modern western democracy which advocates free trade.

I guarantee you wont be able to find one. The closet you can get is anarchist Spain, and guess what? It doesn't exist anymore.

reply to post by Cabin

When people used to work decades in the same job, that is not gonna work anymore. It is predicted for this generation and the next ones, jobs would change every couple of years, whether internationally or locally.

That's already happening! For at least ten years now.

But, yeah. I get what you're saying. "Decades at the same job" doesn't happen anymore. You get dumped for a college grad with no experience.....cheaper, ya know.

They've never had a job in their lives, but, well - they got that degree and got on the 'corporate management track' at some global firm......
by-pass experience, by-pass tenure, musical chairs.

It doesn't suit us 'baby boomers'....nor does it 'serve' us....
we worked for 40+ years, and now we're 'shoved out' so the rookies can take our jobs.
Okay, fine, the youth need jobs, I'm okay with that.
But, the PTB want to cut our 'retirement bennies' too?

ouch.

Oh well, I'm probably too tired to do any more on this thread. G'nite, all!!!!!
Take care! Live long and prosper!

reply to post by Openeye


Oh, sorry! I guess I missed where you asked me for an example of a functioning barter system.
Obviously, it only works among small communities, like my neighborhood.

You want a whole 'country' doing that?
All I can offer is the Amazonian tribes who have rejected Western Civilization, and the 'governments' of the various countries that are included in the Amazon are respecting it.

reply to post by Openeye


This particularly is not a barter system. It is just sharing for a small price... I see it as only logical conclusion. 90% of the stuff people have they do not use 95% of their time. The only problem with this system is greed. Some people would start to use it in their favour, finding loopholes to use stuff longer than paid for, keeping the stuff etc etc.

Especially I can not get the personal car, personal boat thing, extra rooms etc etc. If I work, I would have to park anyways, but some guy is working with his car at the same time, so why not swap? If I own a boat, I probably would use it maybe once every month or even less. Why does everybody need to have one, if they are not using it... It is just waste.

I renovate my house maybe couple of times a year, why do I need purchase all the tools necessary? I would prefer paying 5 bucks for using all the tools necessary for a day. In the long run it saves lots of money + is much better for the environment.

Currently the rental things exist, although they are not worth it, too high costs for renting=pointless. Its cheaper to buy some random car than use a rental for a year.

In Dorm we used to split up on colognes Everybody put in like 10 dollars, we bought lots of different kinds (quite expensive ones). Whenever somebody needed they took it.Everybody saved quite some money (1 costs around 50-100 dollars) + had a nice assortment of quality colognes. These lasted for a year total. I usually buy it once a year, so saved over 50 dollars.

As long as somebody does not take advantage of such system, it works on consumer items, which one does need to use often (not computer, cell phone etc).

I remember a house I lived at used to rent a large piece of land from some farmer. The land was used to grow different vegetables. Once a year, all came together ad put the seeds in the ground, once a year all came together and harvested. For around 300 dollars, over 100 people got their organic food for a whole year to store at their cellar, the farmer earned over 30 000 dollars (in a country with average yearly salary under 15k ) for taking care of the land (fully organic, no pesticides at all). For a person at pension, it is just couple of hours a day work in fresh air, not too hard work + the farmer family got also their food for a year. If he had sold the same things to corporations, he would have earned less than 10k (even if renting) + he would have to had do all the harvesting himself + putting seeds etc etc and I would have to have paid thousands for buying the same food from stores. Everybody won.

reply to post by KyrieEleison


BRILLIANT post!
Thanks. You 'lost me' at the techno-jargon point...
but, my dad was an engineer, and I could feel him reading along with me ---
yeah.....
REAL knowledge, not just 'quik-fix'/'replace'.......

You go, you!!!


(My daughter is also an engineer. My son and I are more the artistic, Bohemian types).

reply to post by Cabin


YAY!
THAT'S what I'm talking about !!!

yay.
thanks.
nothing else to add. right now. Keep it coming, guys!
This can and does work.

reply to post by wildtimes


Sorry about that.

Your assertion is correct, though - many (most?) technicians today do not really understand the basic design of the equipment that is in need of repair.

They simply connect it to a test fixture (designed by guys like myself and your daughter), ascertain which board or module the fault is located in, and swap the entire thing out.

It is almost unheard of to perform actual component-level testing and repair especially on things that are tiny. It requires a lot of time, patience, and skill to do that.

The obvious flaw in this approach is, well, what if there was an inherent flaw in the circuit design itself? Just ask the folks at nVidia about this one!

No matter how many times you swap those things out, bad is still bad.

ETA: Back to the topic at hand...

Yes, I would certainly barter/trade my services with someone. Nobody's taken me up on it yet, though.

I sometimes get called 'hippy chick' lol.

I lost everything when I lost my job, home, car, standard of living etc. I learned to live without 'stuff' and 'things' for years because I couldn't afford them. Nowdays it's a way of life for me, I get by on a tiny amount and my family think I must be miserable because I never have any spare money, but it really doesn't bother me one bit.

I am happy that I am able-bodied, I have sisters, brother, cousins, aunt & uncles, nieces and nephews, I have friends, and I have my dogs, I have my uncomplicated, simple life. All these are my important 'things', all are precious and priceless, and all cost absolutely nothing. I was too busy to appreciate them before I lost my job, because it was more important for me to flog myself to death in the rat-race so I could pay for all the 'stuff' I really didn't need.

Money, and the frantic rat-race/treadmill we have to endure in order to procure it, distracts us from appreciating the priceless things in life which cost nothing.

I realised that since losing everything, my cup is far from empty - it is overflowing.

edit on 5-6-2013 by doobydoll because: (no reason given)

I got hurt in 2006, lost my livelihood, wife's company went bankrupt, we sold most everything, and loaded what we could in a horse trailer, along with a horse. I am 53 YO's, and along with my wife, and our two large german shepherds, live in my mother's basement. We look after her, her 81 YO husband, and ourselves, both working part time. The best part of this experience, we were able to move my 95YO grandfather in here the last six months of his life, and look after him, I have many wonderful memories from that time. I live with my mother, work with my sister, and family is the most important thing you can have.