Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven

reply to post by jmdewey60

My translation is the RSV;
"My strength now is as my strength was then, for war, and for going and coming"- Joshua ch14 v11
This is the kind of Hebraism which is more likely to show up in a more literal translation than in a modern paraphrase, which may tend to replace the exact words with their sense of what the passage means.

reply to post by DISRAELI

It is possible to move freely around a place without leaving it.
I have the freedom of my house; I can go in and come out of my bedroom. But this going in and coming out does not imply that I'm leaving the house.

Do you like Thomas.. per chance?

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

You asked me if I could find a passage backing up the statement you thought I had made, so I took that as challenging me to provide a source.

I wasn't challenging you... I merely asking if you could recall anything saying people are trapped in Heaven...

What if you want to leave?

Just a theoretical question

reply to post by DISRAELI

It is possible to move freely around a place without leaving it.

I'm not really getting your point.
I don't see how your interpretive concept applies to John 10:9.
And I don't think you are right about what it says in those OT verses.
There are different versions of them that seem to say different things.

reply to post by DISRAELI

My translation is the RSV;

It may be based on the Masoretic, and so does not reflect the original meaning.
My opinion is that it is probably better to toss out those versions, and completely reject them as being corrupted.

reply to post by DISRAELI


9 I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
RSV

This really highlight why a perfect being simply did not
write these texts, very man made, very language reliant
on a language that was to be lost, basically if god did write
this thing he desired the confusion and the wars that
confusion makes, only to claim in the same book that he
is love, and the most ironic part is this is so easy to point
out and see, yet no ones realizes what it actually means.....

If it look like a human wrote it, sounds like a human wrote
it and lacks morality as if a human wrote it then id bet a
human wrote it, the simple lack of moral character from
most of the characters in this book is a perfect example
of humanity.

reply to post by Akragon

So does that combination of words imply freedom like DISRAELI said... or does it imply that one is trapped in "heaven"?

I think that it just means that there is a continuing process that Jesus oversees, rather than him being only involved in a one time event.

reply to post by bloodreviara


Men did write it... obviously...

But the gospels are different...

read them for yourself and find out

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

So does that combination of words imply freedom like DISRAELI said... or does it imply that one is trapped in "heaven"?

I think that it just means that there is a continuing process that Jesus oversees, rather than him being only involved in a one time event.

Alright... Now if there is a sin, that is not forgiven in this life... OR the life to come...

And he said to "nicodemus" specifically YOU must be born again... and keep in mind exactly who he was...

What else is there?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

 

It is possible to move freely around a place without leaving it.

I'm not really getting your point.
I don't see how you interpretive concept applies to John 10:9..

In terms of the sheep-farm metaphor in John; it is possible to move freely around a farm, moving in and out of fields, moving in and out of barns, moving in and out of the farmhouse, moving in and out of the sheep-fold, without actually leaving the entire establishment or the farmer's property.
The point I am making is that John's reference to "going in and out" is not intended to imply leaving the kingdom. altogether.

reply to post by bloodreviara

. . . very language reliant
on a language that was to be lost, . . .

I think that it would have been lost, if we did not have a version of the Old Testament in the Greek.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by jmdewey60

 

It is possible to move freely around a place without leaving it.

I'm not really getting your point.
I don't see how you interpretive concept applies to John 10:9..

In terms of the sheep-farm metaphor in John; it is possible to move freely around a farm, moving in and out of fields, moving in and out of barns, moving in and out of the farmhouse, moving in and out of the sheep-fold, without actually leaving the entire establishment or the farmer's property.
The point I am making is that John's reference to "going in and out" is not intended to imply leaving the kingdom. altogether.

edit on 5-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

I don't understand why people can't see this... Can you go in a barn and out at the same time?

IF you return to earth... will you not eventually return to Heaven IF you've already been there?

reply to post by DISRAELI

The point I am making is that John's reference to "going in and out" is not intended to imply leaving the kingdom. altogether.

I don't think that it does, either.
It is a little bit funny of an analogy and I think it just has to do with there being some sort of order and rationality once you let Jesus be Lord.

reply to post by Akragon

. . . he said to "nicodemus" specifically YOU must be born again...

I think that conversation was about how being born a Jew was not enough to be in the kind of kingdom that Jesus was talking about.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

. . . he said to "nicodemus" specifically YOU must be born again...

I think that conversation was about how being born a Jew was not enough to be in the kind of kingdom that Jesus was talking about.

Aright...

though in the Christian view... there is only one or the other... Heaven or Hell...

Yet Jesus said... Hey Nick... don't worry about being born again... the wind blows where it may... and so are those that are likewise... etc etc...

He didn't seem to be too worried about Nicodemus did he?

I wonder if Nicodemus ever followed an apostle in his life?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Joecroft

 

I think you are right in drawing attention to the "knowing" aspect of "seeing".
Other modern translations of John ch3 v3 say "cannot ENTER" the kingdom"; that is surely what Jesus was getting at, and as far as I know that's the normal Christian understanding of the message of that verse.

edit on 4-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

I figured out the similarities between seeing and knowing from this scripture right here:

John 9:39-41

39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”

41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.


Throughout scripture we many times see allusions between nakedness being unrighteousness. Yet Adam and Eve were created "naked". Where satan came into play was he convinced them to eat from the forbidden tree of knowledge. When they saw their unrighteousness they were prompted to weave fig leaves (make artificial righteousness) to cover their shame. They "knew" and because they knew they were cursed to die.

This is believe is what Jesus came to do, to cover over the knowledge until we can obtain new bodies which will not have the curse of knowledge on them. We must return to being blind, for if we were blind we would have no sin. I think Apostle Paul alludes to this when he said that the perfect church would be one that was blind and naked, he ofcourse would be speaking of the allegorical.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Wow... knowledge is evil and we need to be blind.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Wow... knowledge is evil and we need to be blind.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Knowledge is evil, to the one who has no wisdom. There is knowledge of good and knowledge of evil. We weren't meant for either one, that was God's burden to carry, we were just supposed to exist in the little world he created for us. Take a look at the world today, we destroy everything we come into contact with, there is no harmony. Behold the knowledge you prize so much.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . the perfect church would be one that was blind and naked . . .

Revelation 3
You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

Message to the Church in Laodicea

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Knowledge itself is not evil, it's what people decide to do with that knowledge that's evil. Knowledge has lead to good things just as it has lead to bad things.

Blame the people, not knowledge.