An Curious Case of "Evolution" In the Bible?

Evening fellow ATSers; I present to you something that I have had in the back of my mind for a few years, and have brought up from time to time throughout my posts, but I thought I would share it with you. Before doing so though, this is my opinion on a curious case, and only that, an opinion. Also I feel the need to tell you I am not looking for an intense scientific debate on biology and etc, as that is definitely out of my league, but only proposing a thought experiment. The following takes place in the book of Jonah chapter 4. [NIV]

"Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. Then the LORD God provided a leafy plant and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant."

Here God provided Jonah with a plant, that seemed to instantly grow; a few verses later after Jonah was upset over God taking the plant away;

"But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight."

What does this say to you? Suppose I were a botanist who had gone over to Jonah after the plant appeared, and Jonah told me "this plan appeared here today." I would use all of the logic and science in the world to prove otherwise. I would look at this plant which supposedly "sprang up overnight" and I would compare it to similar plants, and have scientific proof that it was impossible that it sprang up overnight. "But the Lord made it within a day" Jonah might say. But the botanist would then tell you that was absurd and primitive thinking, and that it clearly took billions of years to evolve.. I mean several weeks to grow.

Do you see my point here? You could say this is all just nonsense, or it was to be an illustration from a fairy tale book called a Bible, or you could see it as Biblical proof of God's creation in action! What if God truly did create the world in 6 days, but rather than making them magically appear, He had them 'evolve' super fast, so that one who looked at it in retrospect would think it took eons?

Personally I have always believed that some degree of evolution is true, and that alot of it is looking at creation after the fact, just as a scientist looking at Jonah's vine after the fact. What if the 'vine' is a small scale sample of the whole of creation? Maybe evolution explains creation backwards, but creationism explains creation forwards? What are your thoughts?

A couple of things i'd like to say in closing; God was going to destroy the city of Nineveh which is what this chapter is about, but he spared the city and had compassion for the people in it. [Pointing this out for those who say the old testament God is nothing but a murderer.] Lastly, please spare me any comments about not understanding how evolution works, or any of that, I just want to hear comments about this verse, and this curiosity I have come across, thank you!

I'd love to go back in time and witness the people who wrote all this stuff in the bible seriously...

Did they have discussions about what to put in it?

I could imagine them sitting around a camp fire... "Right guys whats next? I heard someone say something about magic plants... well put that in now that we've done the bit about the talking snake..."

It annoys me immensely when people with not even a fundamental understanding of evolution postulate about it. If you are a true seeker of knowledge understand how evolution actually works in detail. Evolution isn't merely a gradual change in a single organism it requires sustained and constant reproduction that transmits beneficial mutations to subsequent generations until every member of the species has the mutation and when compared to the original species from which it mutated you will notice a genetic shift. This is a gradual and time consuming process. This 6 day nonsense being peddled around is based on nothing but the writings contained in a random book. Why don't you just take the Epic of Gilgamesh as historical truth ? It is actually far more coherent than the Bible and much older.

I implore you watch the video series by CDK007 about Abiogeneis to see how Life comes from non life. No Sky Daddy required.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by janus89


I think it's clear there are folks here who make the term Agnostic sound downright religious....but calling the Bible "random book" is a fine way to personally offend a large % of those people you're standing in the middle of. Just a personal thought on that. I'd also note....those without Faith are of a very small world wide %. I almost feel bad for them. Emptiness...is how I'd imagine a life where my own human form is the highest form of accomplishment to look toward.

Also.. 6 days? Yeah... That's an interesting point. The answer I've generally heard from those of Faith is one that does tend to make sense. 6 days by whose clock? This is Old Testament time and Old Testament thinking. 6 days on God's Time could be 6 years or 6 Millennia for all we know. Science tells us the Earth is billions of years old, so that whole few thousand year concept is shot on the spot. Again...Years by whose definition precisely?

The Bible also says, old version, that by our measure of time? People once had lifespans into the hundreds of years. (the actual total is higher, but even I draw the line somewhere without tangible proof). Faith..it's an interesting thing and an endless sense of wonder to me, personally, for why some insist on tearing into it like a dog to a piece of meat at every possible opportunity. It's about as attractive to see as the dog visual.

Originally posted by roughycannon
I'd love to go back in time and witness the people who wrote all this stuff in the bible seriously...

Did they have discussions about what to put in it?

I could imagine them sitting around a camp fire... "Right guys whats next? I heard someone say something about magic plants... well put that in now that we've done the bit about the talking snake..."

actually it was a tiny bit more serious then that bro...

Laodicea

reply to post by honested3

Could you explain why you think a plant springing up overnight is an example of any kind of evolution? Maybe we can take it from there.

reply to post by Astyanax


Yea, I have to agree with you on this one.
But, I think this is the first reference you can find for Kudzu.
If you live in, or have been to the south, you know what I mean.

reply to post by honested3


The book of Jonah is a picture of the Son of God in the wilderness as Shepherd of mankind. The provisions of God in the wilderness journey are personified by the four elements. Water/Fish, Fire and Hot Sun/Gourd Shade, Air/East Wind, Earth/Place of Rest. The plant has root in the ground and provides shade. Like all our creature comforts, the worm will devour them all. They are temporary. Jonah should have thanked God on both occasions of provision and taking that provision away. Instead, he pouted and grumbled. This is a comparison of the Rock that God provides as a sure foundation and the material world that withers and dies.

Greek and Latin - Amni - River of Life - Jordan

---In the water, Jonah was protected as a fish. By this, we are reminded that we are in the water here on Earth as our immersion into the river of life (Jordan). We come out of Egypt (Just as Nineveh had to do as an archetype of the Gentile Nations). Baptism is a symbol for our birth into the material world so we can repent of sin. Not that the sin we commit here is of significance. It is not. Our sin here is passing into memory that will be lost. The sin we repent of is our potential to sin and our choice not to make that choice. Love is the key to this transfer of our authority back to God after having it as free will here. What does God do with that will? He gives it back to us, just as he gave Abraham his Son back.

Amnion - Sac covering the womb.

---The fire represents the trials we must endure. Water puts out fire and shade is the shadow God provides as a cloud over our senses. Too much light can burn. God provides the provision as a temporary veil over our senses. This leads to the next Greek and Latin Word. Amnesia. Amnesia is the condition of the waters of life. It is temporary. We will remember each life we lived. You must be born again. The cloud is lifted and every eye sees.

Revelation 1:7

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[a]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.

Amnesty - Forgiveness in a foreign land.

The East Wind blows just before trouble comes. In all things, life must lead to dissolution and death. Death brings renewal. The Dew (Water) falls on the ground (Earth), exchanges the air as the sun rises (Fire) and distills (Amnesty) the water back to the source of that ocean. It's a process that all plants follow and we, as humans, are planted on the Earth (Garden / Egypt) to be refined in this manner.

Deuteronomy 4

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

Our inheritance is our new Robe (Body) and Crown (Mind). You must be born again.

Amni - River of Life
Amnio - Bowl that catches the blood of the lamb sacrifice
Amnion - Sac covering the womb
Amniotic Fluid - Water of the womb
Amnesia - Forgetfulness in the waters / Condition of the Cloud / Veil
Amnesty - Forgiveness in the waters / Water puts out fire

The same sun that melts wax also hardens clay. Water keeps the clay malleable.

See this thread: Glass and Ceramic - Hidden Secret of the Breath of God

The Shepherd pulls the wool over our eyes (Amnesia). He then sheers the wool (Sin) off our hide season after season (Baptism / You must be born again). He then takes the wool, washes it white as snow (Amnesty) and gives it back to us as a new Robe (Body), woven by his hand, but created using our own material from the wilderness journey. Thank God for all of it as Jonah should have done. Secret Message in the Sign of Jonah. Jonah brings salvation to the Gentiles by asking them to repent. See the thread.

Also, consult the Matthew Henry Commentary on this subject.

Great Thread!

reply to post by teamcommander

I live on the other side of the world, but I know kudzu, or a plant very like it.

You should import monkeys. They eat the stuff.

reply to post by janus89


My small and primitive unscientific Christian mind, knows enough about evolution to say that it does take alot of time for it to develop right? Is there any timeframe at all in there whatsoever? If so, then imagine the process took place in a matter of seconds, thats what I am postulating. This requires imagination, so take a deep breath and sit down for a bit.

reply to post by Astyanax


A plant instantly appears without needing to grow, without needing to go through the logical, proven, explainable process we know today. So if it appeared instantly as demonstrated here, is it possible Creation was the same? Where it 'sprang up overnight?'

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Very good, I have not seen the book of Jonah in that sense, one could say the Bible has many answers and many hidden gems in it for those who look, one could say my OP is one of those too?

reply to post by honested3

A plant instantly appears without needing to grow, without needing to go through the logical, proven, explainable process we know today. So if it appeared instantly as demonstrated here, is it possible Creation was the same? Where it 'sprang up overnight?'

Ah, I see. Using one set of the words in the Bible to substantiate another set of words in the Bible. Very effective, I'm sure.

On the subject of my original inquiry, evolution generally means starting out with one thing and ending up with another. If your miraculous prophet-sheltering plant was a previously unknown species but evidently related to previously existing ones, it would have been a case of evolution. Otherwise not. Did the author of Jonah share the results of the DNA analysis? Or even tell you what the plant was?

reply to post by Astyanax


I dont know what plant the vine was as quoted in Jonah, and no Jonah did not catalog the plant or take dna samples. I think your missing the point of the the thread here.

Basically a plant should take weeks or months to grow, but it happened instantly. If you did not know it happened instantly, wouldn't you say it took weeks and or months to grow? I am saying the same with evolution, obviously it takes great lengths of time to happen, but if we were not there at the beginning, is it possible it too could have happened instantly, and we are only seeing it after the fact? Much like the vine I am pointing out?

Originally posted by honested3
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Very good, I have not seen the book of Jonah in that sense, one could say the Bible has many answers and many hidden gems in it for those who look, one could say my OP is one of those too?

All of God's symbols have 360 degrees of perspective. I did enjoy the thread. I look forward to the next one.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Agreed, thanks for the post, also I do enjoy reading your posts in other threads, you have much wisdom from God.

reply to post by honested3

Basically a plant should take weeks or months to grow, but it happened instantly.

I think the root of the problem, if you'll pardon the pun, is here. You believe this miracle happened because the Bible tells you so. If you believe that, there's really no point in discussing evolution; belief in divine revelation and the scientific quest for truth occupy different conceptual universes. Stay in yours, let the evolutionists stay in theirs, and there won't be any trouble.

If you did not know it happened instantly, wouldn't you say it took weeks and or months to grow?

We do not know it happened instantly. We just read it in a book – a book that presents not a single argument or fact to support the claim, but which we are asked to believe just because the author says it's so.

I am saying the same with evolution, obviously it takes great lengths of time to happen, but if we were not there at the beginning, is it possible it too could have happened instantly, and we are only seeing it after the fact? Much like the vine I am pointing out?

No, it isn't possible. The dates assigned to fossils and the age of geological strata, the estimates of rates of mutation and the apparent age of the universe, were not made up at random. They are based on observations that agree with one another as well as with what is predicted by theory. It is quite certain that the Earth and the cosmos are very, very old and that life appeared in their history a very, very long time ago.