Public Atheist Monument Across from 10 Commandments

reply to post by windword


It makes me wonder what future civilization will think about this country on one hand we say there is separation of church and state but on the other we openly have displays of a secular religion on public property. That to me is on par with saying all men are equal but allowing ownership of slaves.


I would be interested to hear from a immigrant from somewhere like India that practices Hinduism on whether or not they feel they would be treated equally at a courthouse that has the ten commandments planted right in front of it? It is things like that which detract from how our country is presented to the world.

A much better monument would be the scales of justice however if it was added there now the blindfold would be off to accurately depict the situation.

reply to post by GeisterFahrer

However, both, science and religion, have been used to advance civilizations. Dr. Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement was motivated by his religious beliefs. Gandhi is yet another example - then there are innovative medical technology and scientific breakthroughs prolonging our lives.

I agree intentions are very important, but even with bad intentions, science is still a system to end up with an answer. To bad the first found the answer for atomic energy, then electric cars, but religion has been corupted by evil intentions throughout history. When religious ways and ideas aren't even fact. Just people that think so and they can kill for their thoughts.

Religion is a way of life. Science only a tool for ending up with the right answers.

I think this is a huge difference between both subjects.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by GeisterFahrer

 

But how do you know this commonly held entity was a god? Perhaps it was perceived as a god or regarded as a god, but was it really a god and not just a being of an advanced nature? Humans have a tendency to want to believe in something bigger. It doesn't take much for a dog to turn into a dragon, given the right conditions and emotional stimuli. Hound of Baskerville, anyone?

This we agree on. There were solar systems and planets long before our earth was formed.

It's logical/probable to me that there are beings far more advanced then us.

I actually tend to believe along the lines of the Terra Papers. I also tend to believe off planet beings are what early man thought were gods.

I believe it is all real. Not some mystical/magical creator.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by windword

 

This seems ridiculous—Sue people for putting up religious monuments but then put up your own religious monument.

The American Atheists are a religious organization seeking to put up a religious monument in honor of their "church" in a public place. They too should be sued. This group promotes and provides information on "atheism", as if their position on God was any different from any other position on God. Pure double-standards and religiosity is what I see here.

For the most part, I agree. And I'll go so far as to point out, that stuff like this is a big reason that a lot of people dislike certain types of atheists. I have heard some atheists actually raise this question. "Why do people hate on / pick on atheists?" And stuff like this, is the main reason why. Thank god (irony?) that there are still some good atheists out there, just as there are good christians out there, who don't try to impose their beliefs on others at every turn.

Many atheists do truly operate as if they're part of a religion, complete with the need to proselytize for their faith (that no god exists-- and yes, this is a matter of faith, just like belief in the opposite), and to ridicule and mock those who see the world differently than they do. Some militant atheists are literally no better, in their behaviors, than the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist christians they abhor. Not only no respect for the beliefs of others, but blatant, vocal disrespect. Both fundamentalist christians and militant atheists engage in this horrid practice.


And while I may not entirely agree with the comandments being posted in public (I am a believer in separation of church and state), you have to face a simple fact. It is an important one, but one that many people seem to miss in this debate:

While this country may not have been founded on the christian religion, most systems of law are based on Christian Ethics. If you strip the 10 commandments of their religious overtones-- "thou shall have no god before me..." etc, you are left with a simple code of decency that is recognized universally. Do not murder, do not steal, etc. It could be argued, of course, that these things are just that-- universal, almost natural, instinctive codes of decency. And I have no objection to that argument. But they were codified by religion-- by judaism and christianity, long before there were ever large groups of atheists. It could be argued that a depiction of the commandments is just a recognition of that fact, and a nod to the ancient history of law.


Do militant atheists have a problem with history and its acknowledgement as well?

reply to post by iwilliam


Maybe... just maybe... the great things we assume religion created for society were actually stolen from the people they killed and enslaved.

Religion seems to get more tame as the body count piles up across history.... interesting correlation.

reply to post by iwilliam


Under that line of thinking, why not post the Babylonian "Code of Hammarabi"? You know "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"

It's also used in the Bible, in fact Jesus cited it, but it wasn't given by any God. It is also just as applicable in today's society as the pragmatic and outdated 10 Commandments, supposedly given by "God".

reply to post by iwilliam


The 10 commandments, like religion, are a sign of the culture. Other cultures had no such commandments or authorities, but nonetheless practiced similar ethics. I think the religious argument for religious morality or the doctrines of the 10 commandments being pervasive throughout culture is an inversion of the truth, for it is the morality of the culture that is pervasive throughout religion. This is obvious. The Protestant Reformation happened because of cultural motivation and not because of any particular religious morality.

Where would the Golden rule be without Aristotle or Confucius? Where would Christianity be without Plato, Plotinus and Aquinas? Without this culture there would be no Christianity. I would argue that religion arises from culture, not the other way around.

Originally posted by iwilliam
. . . a lot of people dislike certain types of atheists.

Right - sort of.

Atheist/atheism means only one thing: lack of belief in a god/deity.

A true honest atheist will also claim agnostic, because the real meaning of agnostic is: god can not be proven or disproven.

Atheism does not mean: anti god.

What an atheist believes beyond "lack of belief in a god/deity" is their own individual philosophy. An individual's Atheist's Philosophy.

For me this matter of legality and how it portrays the American legal system. The 10 commandments are 10 laws and yes 3 of those laws are part of our legal system the other 7 are not. The argument that those three laws shaped this country may be true however those three laws are not exclusive to Christianity. I believe you can find those laws in every culture in one form or another. My problem is with the other 7. I find the placement of that monument offense able I do not feel it belongs there no more than it should be in the courtroom itself. There are those that would have them in the courtroom if they could perhaps even a crucifix of Jesus as well.

I stated earlier that China had these same laws there religions did as well. One could argue that Chinese immigrants who labored on building railroads in this great nation were instrumental in connecting our society in ways that were building blocks of what we enjoy now. So why don't we see Confucianism or Buddhist monuments? We actually have adopted more tenants of their legal system than those of Christianity.

Below is a link to an interesting paper that addresses much of what has been discussed here but it does so from a different standpoint. BTW I do not think there should be eastern religious monuments I am only illustrating a point by using a different cultural aspect in hopes the disassociation will allow people to address this issue as a cultural legal standpoint.

Rule of Law in Ancient China:

Chinese Substance or Western Function? :

If the fellowship purchased property or received permission from the owner of the property adjoined to the courthouse and placed the monument there I wouldn’t care in the slightest however the place it is on at this moment is public property and the courthouse is a government authority having Christian laws displayed there is completely inappropriate.

reply to post by Annee

Atheist/atheism means only one thing: lack of belief in a god/deity.

A true honest atheist will also claim agnostic, because the real meaning of agnostic is: god can not be proven or disproven.

I don't think there is such a thing as "lack of belief". It sounds like a deceptive way of saying I believe that there are no deities to believe in. If atheism is a lack of belief in deities, then the word atheism is totally irrelevant and useless, as everyone from agnostics, babies, the dead, trees, and horses are now atheists because they "lack a belief" in deities.

No matter how you word it, something is believed in. In the case of atheism, it is the belief that there are no deities. Or in the case of agnosticism, the belief that we cannot know whether there are deities or not. These are convictions that involve thinking about and coming to some sort of conclusion about deities. All of these are taken on a leap of faith, with no "book of facts" to tell us we're right or wrong. Conviction involves belief in some form or another.

Disbelief isn't a lack of belief, it is refusal to accept someone else's beliefs over one's own.

Also, no reputable dictionary has atheism as a "lack of belief in deities".

atheism |ˈāTHēˌizəm|
noun
disbelief in the existence of God or gods.
ORIGIN late 16th cent.: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god.’

Oxford Dicitonary

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity
See atheism defined for kids »

Merriam Webster

atheism
noun [U] /ˈeɪ·θiˌɪz·əm/

Definition
› the belief that God does not exist

Cambridge American Dictionary

atheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

atheism:
1a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.

American Heritage Dictionary of Language

atheist:
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
2. A godless person. [Obs.] Syn. -- Infidel; unbeliever. See Infidel.

atheism:
1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
2. Godlessness.

Websters Dicionary

Disbelief:

disbelief |ˌdisbəˈlēf|
noun
inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real: Laura shook her head in disbelief.
• lack of faith in something: I'll burn in hell for disbelief.

Oxford Dictionary

dis·be·lief noun ˌdis-bə-ˈlēf

Definition of DISBELIEF

: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue
See disbelief defined for English-language learners »
See disbelief defined for kids »

Merriam Websters

reply to post by Annee


Well I don’t know about your statement that an honest atheist would also be agnostic. All that depicts is their certainty level and some actually think they have seen conclusive evidence to be certain on the subject.

For me I am an agnostic atheist I am not sure on the subject if there were some kind of proof showing that a deity or deity’s exist or once existed I wouldn’t have a problem changing my stance however my standards seem to be kind of high by what I have seen others post as proof.

It is just a matter of people being honest with themself IMO. I wouldn’t tell a devout Christian (gnostic Theist) that if they were being honest they would be an agnostic theist from what I understand most have had doubts on the subject at one point and time.

There have been times I was certain that gods could not possibly exist now or ever, my change in stance has been more because for me that level of certainty is tiresome in a way. I am sure everyone has an opinion on the issue. If people are being honest with themselves that should be enough.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by GeisterFahrer

 

But how do you know this commonly held entity was a god? Perhaps it was perceived as a god or regarded as a god, but was it really a god and not just a being of an advanced nature? Humans have a tendency to want to believe in something bigger. It doesn't take much for a dog to turn into a dragon, given the right conditions and emotional stimuli. Hound of Baskerville, anyone?

I have wrestled with that question. Now, my ex wife believes Jesus was really an alien (hence all the miraculous healings, walking on water, etc. she claims it is proof of advanced technology). As for my belief, yeah, obviously "if" there is a God, he or she is obviously an "advanced being". No question there.

The Abrahamic religions and the one I was raised to believe, all state that this "advanced being" always was and always will be.

After careful perusal of that explanation ... no beginning, no end, how can our minds even begin to conceive of that?

reply to post by GeisterFahrer


Perhaps that has to do with a particular awareness of the longer lasting elements composing our universe. Much like some are sensitive to thoughts and emotions, others are sensitive to quantum or subatomic activity.

reply to post by GeisterFahrer

After careful perusal of that explanation ... no beginning, no end, how can our minds even begin to conceive of that?

LOL!

When I was little, my mother was talking about something that happened, she said, before I was born. I remember being stunned that there was a world that existed, and went round and round, without me in it! I couldn't comprehend that there was a time that I didn't exist!

I had a similar experience when I pondered death. My mother was telling me about heaven, and how we wouldn't be "us" because we would be one with God, and just dissolve into HIS essence. The very idea of me not existing as myself was more terrifying than Hell!

I've since come to believe in the pre-existence and eternal life of the soul. I believe in reincarnation.

reply to post by windword


It is sometimes hard to say what I believe in. Many times, it is easier to say what I don't believe in.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

If I told someone that lacking hair is still having hair, or lacking a hobby is itself a hobby, they'd probably ask whether I've been feeling OK and might even suggest counseling.

atheism.about.com...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I have that too!

reply to post by windword


Whew! And I thought it made me a bad person. Wait - you too? ...crap.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as "wickedness," "sinfulness," and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as "there is no God" betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read "there are no gods." atheists.org...

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by GeisterFahrer

 

After careful perusal of that explanation ... no beginning, no end, how can our minds even begin to conceive of that?

LOL!

When I was little, my mother was talking about something that happened, she said, before I was born. I remember being stunned that there was a world that existed, and went round and round, without me in it! I couldn't comprehend that there was a time that I didn't exist!

I had a similar experience when I pondered death. My mother was telling me about heaven, and how we wouldn't be "us" because we would be one with God, and just dissolve into HIS essence. The very idea of me not existing as myself was more terrifying than Hell!

I've since come to believe in the pre-existence and eternal life of the soul. I believe in reincarnation.

edit on 7-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

I guess what I am pointing out is that, even in the laws of physics, there has to be a beginning. There is no such thing as "perpetual motion". There has to have been, at one time or another, a force that caused a reaction.

It is just perplexing. Even with reincarnation, something had to 'get the ball rolling' so to speak.