Unlike the Americans, the Ukranians are protesting their rigged election!

This is exactly what should be happening in our country right now. The cause of their outrage is exactly what happened here!!! Exit polls are historically and consistantly very accurate, almost always within 2%! We're supposed to believe that an unexpected amount of people came out to wait in line and vote for Bush because of his MORALS??????

www.janes.com...

I think the Ukranians have more to fight for honestly. We are already the best country in the world.

I think in general, we are apathetic. Of course we talk about doing things, organizing protest, but do we really do it? And if we do go through with it, it's just to the extent of standing on the side of the road in downtown holding up signs.

Originally posted by Simulacra
I think the Ukranians have more to fight for honestly. We are already the best country in the world.

I think in general, we are apathetic. Of course we talk about doing things, organizing protest, but do we really do it? And if we do go through with it, it's just to the extent of standing on the side of the road in downtown holding up signs.

I lived through the 60's and we protested and ran amuck...good and bad times there.

Most today simply make noise online or go back to there beer and pizza and hope it will be ok.

I still SCREAM my feelings when talking won't do the job...

People need to connect in there own streets to begin with and from there move forward. I don't see it here......and don't suspect until it gets worse that they will.

E

Always historically and consistantly very accurate?
The Ukranian's particular situation aside and your obvious frustration, are you making reference to the 'early' to 'late' exit pollings heavily favoring Mr. Kerry? Btw, my understanding is that the percent of margin/error is greater than 2% and less than 6%.

Maybe this will help explain such?
All Sides Agree--Exit polls Are Crap
This years early to late exit poll numbers were heavily biased and geared mainly towards women and the urban areas.....which are or were leaning heavily towards Mr. Kerry.
Why are polls showing contradictory results?
Exit Polls: What You Should Know
Demystifying the Exit Polls


Here's my philosophy, despite past historical incidences, exit poll numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.




seekerof

I agree with both of you, normally people do little to stand up for their rights. It's difficult to get large numbers of people ot protest, especially in a way that onlookers view positively, let alone would want to join. I've been thinking that if I lived in one of the "rigged" or heavily supressed states, I think I would be protesting, so surely there has to be be some outrage in those states. It's almost like mainstream media is just intentionally ignoring people trying to expose corruption?

www.indybay.org...

Honestly this thread is threadbare, comparing the elections process in the US with that of the Ukraine? Yes there may have been minor irregularities in the elections AS there is in any election anywhere in the world. However, in the end Bush was the popular vote of the people whether you or I like it or not. If you believe in a democracy you have to live with what the population want (the majority) not what you want. Kerry, edwards and Clinton all agree it was fair and that the Democrats lost this election , and are working towards the next election where the main candidates appear to be Hillary Clinton and John Edwards.

Originally posted by deeozz
This is exactly what should be happening in our country right now. The cause of their outrage is exactly what happened here!!! Exit polls are historically and consistantly very accurate, almost always within 2%! We're supposed to believe that an unexpected amount of people came out to wait in line and vote for Bush because of his MORALS??????

No...we are expected to believe that 13,000 people make the whole of the US, and accounts for the point of view of over 350 million people..

Let them do whatever they want, radical Islam is affecting the whole world not just the US....it has been happening even before the war.... Yet a lot of people don't want to see this, they prefer to blame the government of the US...next they are going to blame the Dutch Liberal government for "their war against radical Islam."

Problem is the media (and bloggers that jumped on the early poll numbers) is/are ignoring such for a reason.
My first guess would be because they, themselves, were the culrpits and partially to blame.

What went wrong? Edison/Mitofsky can rightly say that nothing went wrong. The skewed exit poll data didn't cause any of the National Election Pool owners (CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, Fox News, and the Associated Press) who commissioned the Edison/Mitofsky data to incorrectly project a winner in any contest. But Edison/Mitofsky was hired to do more than just not cause others to make mistakes. They were hired to restore confidence to the whole election projection game after Voter News Service botched the job in 2000 in Florida. VNS's goofs resulted in the networks calling the state for Gore, withdrawing the call, calling Bush the winner hours later, and then withdrawing that call.

To hear Lenski of Edison Media talk about it, the whole election brouhaha of 2004 can be blamed on the people who leaked the exit poll information and the outlets (Slate, drudgereport.com, wonkette.com, dailykos.com, mydd.com, et al.) that tossed the raw data out for consumption.

Exit Zone: The official excuses for the bad exit poll numbers don't cut it.


seekerof

It's not just that a little inaccurate, there is a clear pattern regarding states that did or did not use machines that leave a paper trail.

THESE ALL HAD PAPER TRAILS:

State...% voting deviation from exit polls
+2B means the change was + 2 for Bush

AZ 0
LA +2B
MI 0
IA +1B
ME 0

I guess you didn't read the links I gave...no biggie.

Don't know what exit poll numbers you are quoting from or are from, but the one's under scrutiny were caused by these:

.........AZ CO LA PA OH FL MI NM MN WI IA NH
Kerry 45 48 42 60 52 51 51 50 58 52 49 57
Bush 55 51 57 40 48 48 47 48 40 43 49 41

Exit Polls Are Crap


And, I'm actually interested in further information on the Ukrainian situation that you speak of....have anymore?




seekerof

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Seekerof]

I voted in the Election for 3 reasons:

#1 Voted George W Bush in HOPES he appoints 3 judges to overturn Roe vs. Wade. Because I BELIEVE since 1973 we have lost our morality... 45 million American Children's lives snuffed out...

#2 Voted to BAN Gay Marriage and Unions. As a state constitutional amendment.

#3 Voted to force any expansion of gambling only be done by a vote only.

So while you continue to cry about the country you live in... you are just fooling yourself to believe people like me do not exist. The Liberals are the LOSERS get over it. You ARE OUTNUMBERED. PERIOD!

ALL were successful... but my state, MICHIGAN, was blue. I knew I had little chance making it red... BUT I VOTED ANYWAY!



[edit on 6-11-2004 by looking4clues]

Originally posted by Mynaeris
If you believe in a democracy you have to live with what the population want (the majority) not what you want. Kerry, edwards and Clinton all agree it was fair and that the Democrats lost this election , and are working towards the next election where the main candidates appear to be Hillary Clinton and John Edwards.

Apparently you don't understand what I'm saying and you certainly don't understand what you are saying. First of all, I do believe in living how the majority (the majority is the 40% of those old enough to vote refuse to participate in a process that no longer does what it is meant to do) feel we should. Unfortunately, I already haven't been able to do that for four years and now won't be able to do so for an additional four years.
Do some research on the voting machines. Or just consider the one fact that in the states that have are showing irregularities, they use noting machines that aren't secure and don't leave a paper trail, produced by companies which support Republicans, the party whose member insisted on using machines that don't leave a trail. I get a reciept when I buy a pack of gum, but not when I vote for the leader of the free world???

You say "Kerry, edwards and Clinton all agree it was fair and that the Democrats lost this election , and are working towards the next election where the main candidates appear to be Hillary Clinton and John Edwards"
Well you just explained why Bill(committed purjury) and Hill(Falsely claimed her daughter was just blocks from WTC when they got hit) agreed that it was fair-so Hillary can run in 08! And Bill is considering replacing Kofi Annan.
Edwards, I think the last thing I heard John Edwards say publicly, the day after the election, was something along the lines of "Every vote counts and we will continue to count every vote"
Well that surely hasn't been done, thanks John!
Kerry, campaigned saying exactly what Edwards said, yet is ignoring that every vote is not being counted. I don't know exactly why, but he is, plain and simple.
Maybe because of the economic realities that will need to be dealt with in the next four years?

Originally posted by Seekerof
What went wrong? Edison/Mitofsky can rightly say that nothing went wrong.

That is the point! The exit polls were right! More people voted for Kerry! If you look at patterns in the voting results, which because Republicans insisted on not having a paper trail in several areas, aren't verifiable, it is hard to come to any other conclusion.

I was going to post all the data here, but found this article that you might like.

www.commondreams.org...

Originally posted by deeozz

Originally posted by Seekerof
What went wrong? Edison/Mitofsky can rightly say that nothing went wrong.

That is the point! The exit polls were right! More people voted for Kerry! If you look at patterns in the voting results, which because Republicans insisted on not having a paper trail in several areas, aren't verifiable, it is hard to come to any other conclusion.

I was going to post all the data here, but found this article that you might like.

www.commondreams.org...

I'm neither republican or democrat, and I KNOW this is a conspiricy board, but really,.......... give it up.

Exit polls were bogus, flawed, and obviously proven incorrect. This is not the first time such has happened. Fact.

Your theory on a paper trail leaves alot to be desired, seriously.
And as a counter to your, and others, beliefs on this, the quest to review votes as to being fraudulent or the 'machines' being paperless, you, as those others, may find that it might backfire and show that there were fraudulent votes placed and/or utilized for Mr. Kerry.

I am somewhat against the use of paperless or non-traceable voting machines, but as with this election, I have yet to see evidences for widespread voter tampering(s), to the extent to indicate that Mr. Kerry would have won or state results would have been otherwise. I do believe that the question has been asked before:

If Mr. Kerry and the Kerry campaign had thought for one moment that large, significant votes had been tampered with in any state (Florida and Ohio in particular), why did he even concede? Why did he, and the Democrat's, with their large 'armies' of lawyers not contest such, in what ever form possible? Please don't give the "divided country bit". You see, if a politician's mouth is moving, there is an underline reason and/or motivation that it is moving....

Care to speculate?
Maybe he knew just what I mentioned. that in the quest to regain lost votes, to "count every vote", that indeed it would have been shown that there was probable voter fraud working to and in his favor, thus countering his or his campaigns efferts to claim that this is how Bush won, etc.?


seekerof

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Simulacra
I think the Ukranians have more to fight for honestly. We are already the best country in the world.

I think in general, we are apathetic. Of course we talk about doing things, organizing protest, but do we really do it? And if we do go through with it, it's just to the extent of standing on the side of the road in downtown holding up signs.

We can protest all we want in as large a crowd as we want, but it gets nowhere. Know why? Cause the "Man" is holding us down, and do you know who the "man" is? The "Man" is corporations that control our government and many parts of the world. Citibank, Halliburton, Pre-Bankrupt Enron, and many other companies that profit from policies that the governments can implement, that is why politicians receive such extravagant gifts from these companies to sway policies in their favor. See how the "man' keeps us down?

EDIT: Wrong thread...

[edit on 2004/11/7 by Hellmutt]

Get a grip. Exit polls, like all polls, depend on myriad variables, all of which cannot be controlled. Just because exit polls have been accurate to within a few percentage points doesn't mean that all exit polls will always be as accurate. This time they were not so accurate. One variable that you might consider is that the Kerry campaign encouraged his supporters to vote early, which I took to mean absentee voting, but it could be that Kerry supporters who did not vote prior to Nov. 2, went to the polls at opening time, as a show of solidarity.

When I voted here in New Mexico, I confided in one of the poll workers that I was glad that my voting relatively late did not cause me to have to wait in line for an extended time. (Actually, there were about 12 people in front of me and they had chairs for us to sit in while we studied a printed ballot.) The poll worker said that they had a long line only when the polls opened and it should be noted that we had a 72% turn out in my county.

Those polls may have only reflected that Kerry voters got to the polls long before the Bush voters did.

Everyone here should take a course in statistics and reseach methods. It really helps to put things into perspective.

[edit on 04/11/7 by GradyPhilpott]