Jihadi Motivation (Disturbing Essay Episode 3) Come On In, It's Short.

reply to post by Tw0Sides

Japan ceased to want to kill Americans after WW2, so did the Germans.
After the Cold War, the Threats to Both Superpowers subsided.

So, I think after we stop Killing them, they may Stop Hurting Our feelings , and Stop the Chants..

Did I miss something??

When did Muslims extremists surrender? Japan surrendered! Germany surrendered!

What was that you were telling me about history?

Dear ATSers,

Just a general comment, I've been away for a while.

I was hoping that this would be a productive thread, one that would help us understand the motivation of the Muslim terrorists and Jihadists.

Mr. Prager's questions seem to be two-fold.

1) Are we doing a service to the Muslims of the Middle-East by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan? If they don't represent true Islam in their violent tactics, then it would be a service and we should be thanked for protecting the people and the rest of the world from them. If they do represent true Islam, then we know that Islam itself is a terrorist religion.

2) If Muslim countries are anxious to have us out of their hair, why are there Jihadist attacks in countries we've never even been in? Or is it that Muslims will attack the West for no other reason than we are the West?

These seem to be useful questions to explore, instead they've been dodged or ignored. We've descended into name calling, irrelevant comments and criticisms, and nearly every other tactic to avoid entering into a real discussion.

This avoidance helps strengthen the fear and distrust that some have of Muslims. Instead of a discussion, there is an endlessly repeated "It's your fault, You do it, too, You're a poopy-head."

I was hoping for better.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. I just had a frightening thought, a half-baked idea. Is it possible that the posters here represent true Islam? Are they displaying the belief that the enemy is vile, you must not make friends or associate with them, and that you must defeat them in no quarter combat?

Originally posted by Johnkie

Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by charles1952

 

I sadly must agree with your conclusion that it is indeed hatred of the West that is at play. Maybe if no one from the UK or US had ever set foot on Middle Eastern soil would have made a difference- but I seriously doubt it. More than anything I believe it all goes back to the re-creation of the Israeli homeland and our support of it, and even if we pulled all support and alliance out from under Israel this very day it would not make a bit of difference because the hatred is ingrained in them now and I'm afraid will be forever.

Justified hatred in the west. Swooped in, gave Israel to the jews, even though we had no right.
Keep bombing and fighting the middle-east since the crusades. Probably before even...
Our western banks suck Poor nations dry. By borrowing their corrupt leaders money in exchange for rights to their natural resources + the countrys poor population is doomed to repay what depth may be left.
If i could nuke every bloody arrogant person in the world, who has never stopped up and philosophied for a extended period of time. Id do it in a heartbeat.
We are swimming in idiots and non-thinkers in the western world... Us who have all possibilities. Access to endless knowledge. Yet we spend our time drinking, watching bad tv, eating unhealthy food. Steadily the world is becoming more and more like Idiocrazy. (The movie).

"Any community that gets its Laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company"

-René Descartes

The jews have lived in Israel in fact i bet you were not aware of this but even the Quran admits to that fact.
In the Quran it talks about the jews being freed by moses or musa. Quran 26:59 Even so. And We gave them as a heritage to the Children of Israel. Here they are talking about Moses being given Israel. So i guess we didnt do it Allah did blame him. but it doesnt stop there just to make sure in the Quran 17:104 And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering." Oh so now the Quran telling us the jews will gather in Israel so by muslims trying to remove them in effect they are subverting the will of Allah. So all this problem in the middle east has nothing to do with the west it is apparently Allahs fault!

reply to post by watchitburn

You especially must be tired of the premise presented by the OP.

We're now supposed to believe that Western governments are attacking, invading and occupying resource rich nations because they love the Moslems...

They must have really loved the Libyans.

Their first act of kindness was to establish a new central bank.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by charles1952

 

If the West would stop, then violent Jihad would stop.

What a lark, he must have never read Quran or Sharia Law.

Obviously you haven't either. One of the reasons why some Muslims go on a Jihad is because they as well as their religion is being oppressed. We have been bombing their countries for decades now not to mention we have also built bases in their holy land. They have been telling the west this for years now but the west refuses to listen.

Let me ask you this. How would Christians feel if we were to build bases in the middle Vatican city then go on a bombing spree killing over a million plus innocent Christians?

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

Japan ceased to want to kill Americans after WW2, so did the Germans.
After the Cold War, the Threats to Both Superpowers subsided.

So, I think after we stop Killing them, they may Stop Hurting Our feelings , and Stop the Chants..

Did I miss something??

When did Muslims extremists surrender? Japan surrendered! Germany surrendered!

What was that you were telling me about history?

Ok, Lets look at our two different approaches , to answer your question.
I said , we could use History to try to gauge Future Events.

You wanted to "guess".

Typical Seabag (sigh) uses the Laughing Emoticon whenever your arguement gets defeated.

(Dude, you been using it a lot Lately)

reply to post by gladtobehere

We're now supposed to believe that Western governments are attacking, invading and occupying resource rich nations because they love the Moslems..

Who said that?

It helps when you read past the part you disagree with before drawing conclusions.

I didn’t see the part where you actually addressed the OP’s questions….did I miss that? I wonder why nobody will actually address the subject of the OP.

SHOCKING!

reply to post by Tw0Sides

Ok, Lets look at our two different approaches , to answer your question.
I said , we could use History to try to gauge Future Events.

You wanted to "guess".

Typical Seabag (sigh) uses the Laughing Emoticon whenever your arguement gets defeated.

I’m sorry…I was trying to make sense of your response.

So you’re basing your guess on two false premises?

Got it!

reply to post by dragonridr

The jews have lived in Israel in fact i bet you were not aware of this but even the Quran admits to that fact. In the Quran it talks about the jews being freed by moses or musa. Quran 26:59 Even so. And We gave them as a heritage to the Children of Israel. Here they are talking about Moses being given Israel. So i guess we didnt do it Allah did blame him. but it doesnt stop there just to make sure in the Quran 17:104 And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering." Oh so now the Quran telling us the jews will gather in Israel so by muslims trying to remove them in effect they are subverting the will of Allah. So all this problem in the middle east has nothing to do with the west it is apparently Allahs fault!

Let's look a little bit further into your picking and choosing of quotes. What the quote you are talking about is supposed to happen at the end of days. God is the one who is supposed to lead the Jews back to Israel no one else. So the creation of Israel is going against the will of God.

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

Originally posted by gladtobehere
reply to post by watchitburn

 

You especially must be tired of the premise presented by the OP.

We're now supposed to believe that Western governments are attacking, invading and occupying resource rich nations because they love the Moslems...

They must have really loved the Libyans.

Their first act of kindness was to establish a new central bank.

Don't forget we were also kind enough to take over 140 tons of gold off their hands.

In all honesty, if we're talking about the situations such as the Boston bombing and the recent killing in London, this is nothing but pure brainwashing. These were people who were taught hate without having even experienced persecution for themselves. They want to blame the West because they have absolutely no idea what it's like living under the persecution of their home countries, but boy, they sure keep hearing that we're the ones to blame for all of the troubles there! What's up with that?

As for your typical jihadists, they've been brainwashed to believe that it's their Muslim duty to take back every piece of land that the Muslims have ever conquered since Islam was born. Who came up with that idea? Probably the same dark force that came up with the Illuminati. Probably the same dark force who have convinced people that "Zionists" are the new Illuminati. That's right! It was Satan himself. Jihadists, Illuminati, Zionists are all just buzzwords created by dark demonic forces to convince people to hate each other!

Welcome to Satan's world of evil! Try not to get sucked into it! There might be hell to pay!

Something I don't understand, and yes, I figure this thread may be hopelessly derailed unless seabag can force people to answer some basic questions, is this business about Israel stealing their country.

As I understand it, The Islamic countries are all hot to get UN recognition for the State of Palestine. Diplomatic and advertising campaigns, money to foundations, everything you can think of. Those countries must believe that UN recognition is something valuable, worth working for and protecting.

Why then, when Israel has UN recognition, the Islamic countries say "It's illegitimate, we'll never accept it, death to Israel." Do those countries want the world to accept UN recognition in one case but not the other?

I know, I know, "But Israel is nasty, devious, murderous, warmongering, etc., etc." Other countries with demonstrably worse histories have their recognition accepted.

How about, the US will never allow Palestinian statehood, until after the world accepts Israel's statehood and right to exist?

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

Japan ceased to want to kill Americans after WW2, so did the Germans.
After the Cold War, the Threats to Both Superpowers subsided.

So, I think after we stop Killing them, they may Stop Hurting Our feelings , and Stop the Chants..

Did I miss something??

When did Muslims extremists surrender? Japan surrendered! Germany surrendered!

What was that you were telling me about history?

Ok, Lets look at our two different approaches , to answer your question.
I said , we could use History to try to gauge Future Events.

You wanted to "guess".

Typical Seabag (sigh) uses the Laughing Emoticon whenever your arguement gets defeated.

(Dude, you been using it a lot Lately)

Well in a way hes right Germany and Japan surrendered they were occupied hostilities continued there were bombings but eventually they capitulated to the west.So if you go by history then ocupation leads to friendship. However in the middle east thats not what we are dealing with.First this is a religious war there are 3 participants. The Jews the Sunni and Shia but the jews are only an excuse in truth. The real war is Sunni and Shia we are watching it play out now in Syria. Even if the west pulled out of middle east politics which we cant we are to deeply imbedded with the Saudis but for argument's sake we did. The killings would continue the Quran says everyone would come under one religion Islam the only problem is we have two different interpretations and both sides think they are right.

So what western countries have been doing is containment we intercede when the threat is there for it to expand from the middle east.Saddam Hussein is the perfect example the UN did not involve itself with the Iran Iraq war it wasn't until Saddam started to create major instability in the region by attacking all his neighbors. Same with the taliban had al qaeda stayed in afghanistan and not exported the fight to other countries the taliban would still be in charge. It not about oil or global domination Its about making sure the fight stays in there backyard. This is why western countries are feigning concern for Syria but notice reluctant to help its still in there backyard.

reply to post by NeoMuslim

Then your strategy is lost.You failed to hit the banks.If you are on a spacific cleansing mission you attack the one thing that creates evil,money.
But you didn't YOU let them in too and now we all reap the wild wind.
As to killing as many as we could,you have no idea what the term "scortched earth " means.
I can't say much about the current occupation in the white house but I can say this,we fought with mercy as we were able against forces that had zero value for human life.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by Johnkie

Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by charles1952

 

I sadly must agree with your conclusion that it is indeed hatred of the West that is at play. Maybe if no one from the UK or US had ever set foot on Middle Eastern soil would have made a difference- but I seriously doubt it. More than anything I believe it all goes back to the re-creation of the Israeli homeland and our support of it, and even if we pulled all support and alliance out from under Israel this very day it would not make a bit of difference because the hatred is ingrained in them now and I'm afraid will be forever.

Justified hatred in the west. Swooped in, gave Israel to the jews, even though we had no right.
Keep bombing and fighting the middle-east since the crusades. Probably before even...
Our western banks suck Poor nations dry. By borrowing their corrupt leaders money in exchange for rights to their natural resources + the countrys poor population is doomed to repay what depth may be left.
If i could nuke every bloody arrogant person in the world, who has never stopped up and philosophied for a extended period of time. Id do it in a heartbeat.
We are swimming in idiots and non-thinkers in the western world... Us who have all possibilities. Access to endless knowledge. Yet we spend our time drinking, watching bad tv, eating unhealthy food. Steadily the world is becoming more and more like Idiocrazy. (The movie).

"Any community that gets its Laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company"

-René Descartes

The jews have lived in Israel in fact i bet you were not aware of this but even the Quran admits to that fact.
In the Quran it talks about the jews being freed by moses or musa. Quran 26:59 Even so. And We gave them as a heritage to the Children of Israel. Here they are talking about Moses being given Israel. So i guess we didnt do it Allah did blame him. but it doesnt stop there just to make sure in the Quran 17:104 And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering." Oh so now the Quran telling us the jews will gather in Israel so by muslims trying to remove them in effect they are subverting the will of Allah. So all this problem in the middle east has nothing to do with the west it is apparently Allahs fault!

Why didn't you read the part where the people of Israel betrayed Allah and Allah exiled them from the land??? or wait you don't people to find out about that

Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."

oops...

reply to post by NeoMuslim


Because that is why the jews were expelled from israel its in the bible as well then Allah or God makes a new covenant with moses or Musa depending on which you prefer. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Quran im up for it. I've read it several times and have spent years in islamic countries. But the point is even the Quran acknowledges the fact the Jews were in Israel but that point is lost on you apparently. If you know anything about history romans greeks and mesopotamians also acknowledge that fact people want to blame the west. Mostly because it fits their limited world view. Heres an example did you know palestinians didn't exist before Yasser Arafat creted them? Ever ask your self where they came from the greeks and roman told us it was an unpopulated dessert. So how did these people magically live there for thousands of years and a couple of countries go you need to move this belongs to the jews reason being is it didnt happen that way that was a lie told by Hitler. And after the 3rd reivh fell has continued.

reply to post by NeoMuslim


Because that is why the jews were expelled from israel its in the bible as well then Allah or God makes a new covenant with moses or Musa depending on which you prefer. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Quran im up for it. I've read it several times and have spent years in islamic countries. But the point is even the Quran acknowledges the fact the Jews were in Israel but that point is lost on you apparently. If you know anything about history romans greeks and mesopotamians also acknowledge that fact people want to blame the west. Mostly because it fits their limited world view. Heres an example did you know palestinians didn't exist before Yasser Arafat creted them? Ever ask your self where they came from the greeks and roman told us it was an unpopulated dessert. So how did these people magically live there for thousands of years and a couple of countries go you need to move this belongs to the jews reason being is it didnt happen that way that was a lie told by Hitler. And after the 3rd reivh fell has continued.

reply to post by NeoMuslim


Am I reading this correctly? The Muslim holy book calls Jews apes?

Showing the love, eh?

reply to post by seabag


No, I think there are jihadists using condemnation of the west to remain in power. Even if we stopped all operations right now, it would still take a long time for the animosity to pass. Maybe a generation or two.

While it was radical Muslim attacks that kicked off the last 10 years of wars, it was our meddling in the middle east that caused the radicalization.

Originally posted by buster2010
One of the reasons why some Muslims go on a Jihad is because they as well as their religion is being oppressed.

Equally as important as just war theory is in understanding religious terrorism, there is a need to understand the morality of religious warfare, which in many ways is like the morality of asymmetric warfare. Take, for example, the following quotation from Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation in Christianity -- "It is both Christian and an act of love to kill the enemy without hesitation, to plunder and burn and injure him by any method until he is conquered, except that one must beware of sin and not to violate wives and virgins." The point of the discussion here is that there are always moral constraints to religious warfare. They may not be the same kind of constraints reflected in just war principles, but they are constraints nonetheless, and represent a particular kind of restraint (e.g., not violate wives and virgins) which reflects a moral superiority against overpowering odds (asymmetric power situation).

Religious terrorists may cross the boundaries of fair play, but they are almost always convinced in their own minds of the moral superiority of their actions. However, this is not morality in the usual sense of having a broad social base. What makes religious terrorism so dangerous, so interested in apocalypse and catastrophe, is that the morality is usually personality-driven. In this sense, one either has the vision or they don't. Religious terrorists are often their own constituency, having no external audience for their acts of destruction (Morgan 2007).

Half of the world's thirty most dangerous terrorist groups claim religion as their motivation. This motivation involves believing that their religion mandates acts of terror as sacred duty in an endless, cosmic struggle for the best way to please God. Religious terrorism has no military objective. A holy war, or jihad, is endless because it has a spiritual objective. No one ever knows when God is pleased enough, and when the situation in heaven matches the situation on earth.

RELIGIOUS ZEALOTRY AND TERRORISM


Suffice to say, you are making "excuses" for what these people do.