Just Hold On. Labelling Children Just Isn't OK.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's awesome that the boy scouts are going to attempt to be more inclusive and not just throw out people for their sexuality. That's all fine and dandy.

This issue has made me think of something else though. Why in the hell are we allowing today's children to define themselves based on sexuality? It seems hardly productive to allow such a narrow view of themselves or the world at such a young age.

Not only do we allow them to put themselves in neat boxes with neat little labels on them, based on sexuality, but we allow them to do it with virtually anything they decide to grapple to and define themselves by.

Regardless of it being sports, or entertainment, a hobby or even academics we are doing our children a very big disservice by focusing on one aspect of their lives or identity with such disregard for how it effects them.

I wonder how gay kids in the scouts will feel? Now that they will most likely be pointed out by others and sought after by the media for interviews and whatever else they'd like to get out of them.

Another example is how we are doing this with disorders or perceived ones. ADHD, ADD and other over diagnosed and over-treated kind of conditions also serve as a label to children that allows an adult to act in a bias way against them in a variety of different circumstances in which they otherwise would not.

I'm not sure about any of you, but I've made it a goal throughout my parenting to discourage single minded labels and make sure that my children were exposed to a variety of different things. Also that they express themselves in a variety of different ways and never try to stay too static.

If you aren't moving forward, you're being left behind and the more that we treat children like they belong in nicely divided categories as opposed to all of them simultaneously, we will continue to have an apathetic, uneducated and uncultured youth.

I assume you've all witnessed the manipulating taking place in the media that directly targets our children. In my opinion a lot of it has been successful and it's high time we begin the process of unbrainwashing our children.

~Tenth

If you aren't moving forward, you're being left behind and the more that we treat children like they belong in nicely divided categories as opposed to all of them simultaneously, we will continue to have an apathetic, uneducated and uncultured youth.

Agreed.

Its the main failing of the public school system. We want the children to be like robots, able to take in vast amounts of minutiae and spit it back out for a standardized test.

If that child shows originality, creativity, boredom, or just plain childishness...we slap a label and medicate.

I'm becoming very disillusioned with my job in education, and with the world in general..

Unfortunately new syndromes are affecting kids daily and if we don't address them the total collapse of modern society will surely be the result. I just heard about a new syndrome called BAKS, that is affecting children worldwide. Worldwide. We are eating all new kinds of food, being exposed to all new kinds of radiation, changing the behaviour patterns 99% compared to kids who grew up a hundred or two hundred years ago.

Is it okay to label kids? Well, if they are coming down with various diseases or mental illnesses I guess most of the population is just looking to protect their own or fix them if they are having major problems. But, it doesn't matter anymore because now that BAKS has been identified, it strikes all children regardless of race, creed, location or eating habits.

BAKS is a serious disorder that can affect kids up until the time they hit puberty.

Are you honestly going to sit around when you have kids or are you going to get them tested for BAKS?

Would you not want to know if they are suffering or would you rather just ignore the signs altogether?













Being A Kid Syndrome, or as it is also known as: BAKS, will affect every child born no matter the country or race.

Symptoms include:

-Acting like a little bugger.

-Pissing off people older than you.

-Being a jerk, weasel, little #e, prick, pain in the ass, etc.

-Eating as much sugar as possible

-Farting on people and laughing about it


etc, etc, etc

BAKS has many other symptoms but I don't want to get into them because frankly it is just too terrifying for most people to acknowledge.

In any case, I agree with the OP. Labelling kids is a selfish, idiotic practice done by people with way too much time on their hands.

reply to post by boncho


I was gonna really upset until I scrolled down and read your definition of BAKS

Well said sir, I agree entirely. I find it amazing that people seem oblivious to the importance of raising the next generation to be BETTER than we were.

~Tenth

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by boncho

 

I was gonna really upset until I scrolled down and read your definition of BAKS

Well said sir, I agree entirely. I find it amazing that people seem oblivious to the importance of raising the next generation to be BETTER than we were.

~Tenth

In all seriousness, labelling kids is entirely counterproductive. And in fact, its a practice that has been used for ages to exclude, ostracize or make fun of children.

How is that? Well.. Consider cliques in schools. "Labels" that they give each other. Nerds, jocks, preps, skaters, stoners, popular, etc.

They all use these labels to put down or to show dominance over one another. And in modern days we've done one worse. Not only have we encouraged this practice, we actually added to it by making our own labels for them.

A kid can't enter school now without thinking they're ADD, ADHD, Gay, Anger Prone, Bipolar, Transgendered, or a list of other crap they throw around.

Really it's freakin absurd the amount of labels they drop on kids, then tell them all they should act normal. "OH, and by the way, calling people names is wrong!"

Nearly all the kids I knew growing up had some odd label attached to them and it became part of their identity. My parents on the other hand refused drugs and just beat me a little instead. Wasn't the greatest experience but at least I didn't spend my formative years thinking something was wrong with me. I just knew I enjoyed doing things that got me in trouble.

reply to post by smyleegrl

I wonder if some of that isn't the constant and seemingly never ending push for new, different and innovative approaches? I see it in school now and have been on the losing end of a "bad trial/error" at least once. Poor kids in grade school never get a Mulligan. They just lose those years of education to a bad idea.

I couldn't agree more about labeling though. We're told in all levels of society that we're equal, should see no difference and absolutely not segregate anything ...from living to mere attention given by Race or any number of factors.

....Then what do we see on the first Government and most business forms? Check boxes to be segregated by race, ethnicity and every other such thing for stats and measure of response. Mixed messages don't even cover it, do they?

In the reference to the Scouts by the OP in particular? It's a sad thing....They'll never truly just be Boy Scouts. Especially the first "gay scouts" in. (As if they haven't always been there..lol) They'll forever be known as "Gay Scouts" and so, like the op says, life goes on defined by label and judgement of society. Good or bad, doesn't change the label approach, huh?

It is my opinion that these issues (gays in the scouts, ADD, ADHD, etc) are just ways for us ignorant humans to push our own uneducated agendas onto and into the lives of our children.

Hell, you could toss in the football dad/soccer mom people into that as well.

We stupidly believe we can live vicariously through our children, politically and otherwise, and push them into categories that we ourselves wish to be attached to or wish to push against.

I hope I was clear on that. It's been a long morning and my head isn't on straight.

Great topic, by the way.

reply to post by boncho

My parents on the other hand refused drugs and just beat me a little instead. Wasn't the greatest experience but at least I didn't spend my formative years thinking something was wrong with me. I just knew I enjoyed doing things that got me in trouble.

THAT right there is the difference if you ask me. Children these days act out and do bad stuff, and then parents blame it on the disorder as opposed the child just being a mischievous little brat.

I also knew I enjoyed doing bad things as a kid, but like you, not because I was broken, but because I was just sort of a bad kid. Today's children all have this complex where they are arm chair psychologists, trying to root out and destroy problems they are told they have.

It's lunacy.

~Tenth

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

the reference to the Scouts by the OP in particular? It's a sad thing....They'll never truly just be Boy Scouts. Especially the first "gay scouts" in. (As if they haven't always been there..lol) They'll forever be known as "Gay Scouts" and so, like the op says, life goes on defined by label and judgement of society. Good or bad, doesn't change the label approach, huh?

You said it better than I could. It's like the whole gay marriage thing. Gay lunch, Gay parking, label this and label that.

When can kids just be kids again? Hell even my eldest daughter is only in her 20's and I can remember when she didn't have to deal with all of this outside pressure.

~Tenth

While the Boy Scout Saga in the US is something I know little about, and watch with great interest, it seems the Boy Scouts can range from ages 10-18.
en.wikipedia.org...

That's almost a decade where people go through puberty, and many will pretty much know by 16 what their sexual identity is.
In recent historic culture, and many cultures today, most men and women would be married by 18.

So the concern about imposed identity should define "children" and when sexual identity can be chosen (I'd say at 16, even if that shouldn't encourage sexual activity).
Perhaps it should be about 28, when most Western people actually marry nowadays?

Of course, the Mormon cult beliefs allegedly first excluded people identified as "gay" from the Boy Scouts.
I find the people who did the excluding just as guilty of labeling as the people who now try to make it inclusive again.

It's like the conservatives always say the gays should keep it in the closet, but then they make a public issue out of it the whole time.
They sell sermons, books and camps all based on the "gay problem".

It's like the Victorians believed that nobody should talk about sex in popular culture, but by saying that over and over again, they talked about sex the whole time.

If homosexuality should be kept discrete then act that way about it, don't exclude people based on being gay and then shriek when they respond as gay people.

In my opinion the problem stems from the combination of our inherent competitive traits in conjunction with the influence/manipulation of mass media.

To elaborate further; we as humans are inherently driven to strive for the contemporary interpretation of excellence, success and being part of the wider social group. 10,000+ years ago, we desired to be the biggest, strongest, most reproductively active in our social circles. Today we try to emulate the success stories (under contemporary definitions of success) which are continually publicized by the media. This include, but are not limited to: Being wealthy, being popular, fitting the cultural norm (White picket fence mentality), while everything that goes contrary to the norm is surrounded by contention and confusion.

I love the example of; 40 years ago, a child with an active imagination and desire to be active was seen as a healthy and positive attribute, today we are proscribing medication to fix make that child fit the new cultural norm of conformity and structure.

Peoples desire to strive for success or continue being considered to be within the cultural norm drives them to label things that goes against the grain to dissuade others from it.

We have labels are the construct of each unique culture to perpetuate the ideals of said group. Western culture is at a tipping point, where our ideals have become convoluted and ill-defined.

This is a very important generation in my opinion. It is where we either continue to constrain ourselves through the use of labels, biases and prejudices or we expand our minds and our ideals to accommodate a ever changing world.

I agree - this whole thing really smells of another ugly reality of our America from not too long ago where we had to tell everyone that African-Americans are people just like everyone else and need to be treated thusly. I imagine if you replaced the word "gay" with "black" in much of the conversation above, it would echo conversations that happened 50 or so years ago (perhaps not with the Boy Scouts in particular, but many other situations). Sad that that has to happen, but this is our society. The reality is that everyone is different and equally the same - there's a real richness in diversity.

As to the OP - I am glad to see the Boy Scout's decision, but to me it partly rings hollow since they still aren't allowing gay leaders and still discriminate against atheists. I pulled my kids from scouts a year ago because I didn't like them dictating morality to me and my family - they need to take a lesson from the Quakers and understand/learn about full inclusion, non-discrimination, and tolerance (my wife is a Quaker..)...

Originally posted by MDDoxs




We have labels are the construct of each unique culture to perpetuate the ideals of said group. Western culture is at a tipping point, where our ideals have become convoluted and ill-defined.

This is a very important generation in my opinion. It is where we either continue to constrain ourselves through the use of labels, biases and prejudices or we expand our minds and our ideals to accommodate a ever changing world.

but from another perspective...
People label themselves and take on roles and identities to set themselves apart from the crowd or go overboard to identify with conformity.

Look at the online avatars and profiles of ATS members. If this is any indication of the demise of Western Culture; I totally agree. But most likely it is fantasy and role playing.

In the real world Kids label each other with the most cruel identities but I totally agree that adults have no business in attaching labels to kids or even other adults for that matter.

In the grand scheme of things, humans are still primitive, tribal and brutal; even though we like to think of ourselves as enlightened and civilized. Civilization is a very thin veneer and Technology really isn't the guage of what we are or likely to become.

Thanks to some ATS members, I've been labeled a "people like you" so my opinion probably doesn't mean squat!!!

Ah yes...

The labelling and pigeonholing of people so that we may continue to divide and fall.


Left, right, democrat, republican, teabagger, commie, socialist, hippy, biker, tree-hugger, redneck, yank, liberal, conservative, pacifist, pro-choice, pro-life, short, tall, fat, anorexic, old, lazy, slacker, ADHD, ADD, gay, straight, bi, cross-dresser, bald, hairy, black, white, yellow, red, introvert, extrovert, smart, stupid, retarded, slow-learner, disabled, mentally disabled, physically disabled, rich, poor, emo, nerd, geek, goth, jock, class clown, freak, diva, atheist, infidel, bible-thumper, muslim, buddhist, christian, jew, taoist, jingoist, agnostic, fence-sitter, fundamentalist, terrorist, extremist, loud-mouth, shy, immigrant, illegal, minority, native, Gen X, Gen Y, baby boomers, mother, single mother, stay at home mother, working mother, druggie, alcoholic, hero, cowboy, easterner, westerner, northerner, southerner, cat person, dog person, educated, uneducated...

Did I miss any ?





Otherwise known as: People


"We become what we are labelled, and we label what we become."

reply to post by olaru12

Thanks to some ATS members, I've been labeled a "people like you" so my opinion probably doesn't mean squat!!!

Well, first let me say that I appreciate your opinion and perspective on the matter. We are all truly doomed if we are so closed minded that we are unable to accept or even listen to another persons position. Your opinion is worth fortune, especially when compared to counterproductive intolerance or attempt at slapping a label on you.

In the grand scheme of things, humans are still primitive, tribal and brutal; even though we like to think of ourselves as enlightened and civilized. Civilization is a very thin veneer and Technology really isn't the guage of what we are or likely to become.

I would agree with you here. However, we have to be cautious, as I find this talk usually brings out the bad type of nationalists. Labels that differentiate us perpetuates the separate group mentality. Which touches on the inherent tendencies i had mentioned.

Look at the online avatars and profiles of ATS members. If this is any indication of the demise of Western Culture; I totally agree. But most likely it is fantasy and role playing.

You saying my avatar is an indication of the stagnation, nay, degradation of western culture? Could you elaborate? Poor Popeye

Originally posted by MDDoxs

Look at the online avatars and profiles of ATS members. If this is any indication of the demise of Western Culture; I totally agree. But most likely it is fantasy and role playing.

You saying my avatar is an indication of the stagnation, nay, degradation of western culture? Could you elaborate? Poor Popeye

Popeye is epitome of all that is good in Western culture. Western cultures' demise will result from cult like ignorance being promoted by those that profit from and worship mediocrity.

Being in the film industry [SAG]; I share some of the guilt.

It's a challenge aesthetically to be involved in films that imo are high art and the next week to be working on movies/TV that is mind numbing garbage.

Originally posted by smyleegrl

If you aren't moving forward, you're being left behind and the more that we treat children like they belong in nicely divided categories as opposed to all of them simultaneously, we will continue to have an apathetic, uneducated and uncultured youth.

Agreed.

Its the main failing of the public school system. We want the children to be like robots, able to take in vast amounts of minutiae and spit it back out for a standardized test.

If that child shows originality, creativity, boredom, or just plain childishness...we slap a label and medicate.

I'm becoming very disillusioned with my job in education, and with the world in general..

But, but but...........

In another thread of your authoring, your OP was this, regarding the BOA accepting "openly gay boys".

IMO, this is good news and long overdue. I'm sure there will be a backlash from the conservative groups, and that is understandable. My guess is those who disagree might form their own version of Boy Scouts which does not allow homosexuals to join. That is their right, of course. Not much more to add, except I see this is a big step forward.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it would seem to me that you are supporting and championing the labeling of young children as "openly gay" so I'm a little confused on your position to the OP in this thread.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I was going to ask you for your input in the other BOA thread but then I realized that you had moderation within it and I am glad to find what I was looking for here.

Excellent post tenth.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Why in the hell are we allowing today's children to define themselves based on sexuality? It seems hardly productive to allow such a narrow view of themselves or the world at such a young age.

We are not "allowing" them to define themselves. They do it. Many define themselves as heterosexual, but there wasn't a ban on them. They are people, with brains. Scouts are up to 18 years old. We're not talking about 6-year-olds here. One kid (probably 13) was afraid he was going to be kicked out because he KNOWS he's gay. He lived in fear of losing what he loved. His position as a scout.

Regardless of it being sports, or entertainment, a hobby or even academics we are doing our children a very big disservice by focusing on one aspect of their lives or identity with such disregard for how it effects them.

None of those explicitly exclude gay kids. Scouts did.

I wonder how gay kids in the scouts will feel?

Any that I've heard speak are very happy about it. They don't have to hide and live in fear of losing what they love. Like it or not, they DO identify themselves as gay. National Gay Eagle Scouts Association. We don't ALLOW them to do that. They do it because it's part of who they are. Just as they would define themselves as being in the band or loving certain music. It's PART of who they are.

Another example is how we are doing this with disorders or perceived ones. ADHD, ADD and other over diagnosed and over-treated kind of conditions also serve as a label to children that allows an adult to act in a bias way against them in a variety of different circumstances in which they otherwise would not.

Having an emotional or physical disorder is hardly comparable to being gay. No one can label a kid as gay unless he knows it about himself and comes out. I can't believe you're comparing ADHD and ADD to homosexuality.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
Agreed.

Its the main failing of the public school system. We want the children to be like robots, able to take in vast amounts of minutiae and spit it back out for a standardized test.

If that child shows originality, creativity, boredom, or just plain childishness...we slap a label and medicate.

I'm becoming very disillusioned with my job in education, and with the world in general..

Maybe a discussion for another day smylee, but I concur. My oldest is labeled by his "teachers" as the following: quiet, reclusive, withdrawn, imaginative, daydreamer, etc. Not always in the best light either (the tone they speak those terms in are slighting).

His crime? He reads....reads a lot. At least his current teacher recognizes that as he has read over 2 million words (or about 10 novels) in 5 months. To his other "faults", he doesn't conform (thanks to me) and is an individual.

To the OP, it is disconcerting. It was why I stood with the Boy Scouts of America on NOT going down this path. There are viable choices for children that wanted this label and they chose an organization for what purpose? Why force a private organization to conform to what you want when you had options to fulfill your desires?

What it does now do is open the door for litigation and litigation will surely be abound in the next 1-5 years I bet. All on the backs of a label that people wanted for their children.