Insurgent Islam and American Collaboration

Sorry about the length of this post but
I dont want you thinking Im taking things out of context or cobbling hair brained ideas together to make my point
I'll let the imam speak

Islam Questions & Answers
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Question Reference Number:: 11793
Title: Being friends with non-Muslims

Home > Basic Tenets of Faith > Alliance and Amity, Disavowal and Enmity >
Question:


I'm a student and a brother who is in the mist of both muslims and non muslims. Usually on Fridays I'm with the muslims but during other days and at university I'm with the non muslims. My problem is I tend to spend alot of time with them and with the temptation around me I don't know what to do the women. I don't drink or even smoke but when it come to women I'm weak and its because of my Islamic attitude they tend to find me nice compared to my other friends. I only wish I knew muslim sisters because I really respect them so I would have been able to time talking to them(from an Islamic perspective) and would not have to spend time with the non muslim women. I have been trying for a very long time but sometimes trying is not just enough. Please advice.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Your question made me very happy, because it is indicative � in sha Allaah � of the sincerity of your faith in Allaah, and of your keenness and eagerness to adhere completely to that which Allaah has enjoined upon you.

You raise a number of issues in your question:

1 � You are mixing with Muslims and non-Muslims. You should note that a Muslim�s relationship with Muslims is different from his relationship with others. That is because the Muslim must take his fellow-Muslim as a close friend, so that he loves him and respects him, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�The believers, men and women, are Awliyaa� (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another; they enjoin (on the people) Al-Ma�roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); they perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give the Zakaah, and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah will have His Mercy on them. Surely, Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise�

[al-Tawbah 9:71]

Your Muslim brothers have rights over you that you must fulfil, but this is not the place to explain that in detail. You can study some of these rights in the answer to question no. 11413.

With regard to non-Muslims, the Muslim should disavow himself of them, and he should not feel any love in his heart towards them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, this Qur�aan, and Muhammad), and have driven out the Messenger (Muhammad) and yourselves (from your homeland) because you believe in Allaah your Lord! If you have come forth to strive in My Cause and to seek My Good Pleasure, (then take not these disbelievers and polytheists, as your friends). You show friendship to them in secret, while I am All-Aware of what you conceal and what you reveal. And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray from the Straight Path�

[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

�Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: �Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allaah Alone��

[al-Mumtahanah 60:4]

But this does not mean that a Muslim cannot interact with them in a nice manner that will encourage them to enter Islam, so long as that is within the guidelines of sharee�ah, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity�

[al-Mumtahanah 60:8]

The Muslim should strive hard to call non-Muslims to Islam through all possible permissible means, in the hope that they may benefit from that and respond, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur�aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided�

[al-Nahl 16:125]

�And who is better in speech than he who [says: �My Lord is Allaah (believes in His Oneness),� and then stands firm (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allaah�s (Islamic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: �I am one of the Muslims��

[Fussilat 41:33]

Muslim narrated in his Saheeh (2674) from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �Whoever calls people to guidance will have a reward like the reward of those who follow him, without that detracting from their rewards in the slightest, and whoever calls people to misguidance will have a burden of sin like the burden of those who follow him, without that detracting from their sins in the slightest.�

2 � You tend to spend a great deal of your time with non-Muslims, and you say that this is a problem. It is indeed a problem because when a Muslim mixes with non-Muslims in a non-Muslim society and feels inclined to like them, this is something that can have an effect on his beliefs, religious commitment and morals (especially since you mention that you do not drink alcohol or smoke � which is a blessing from Allaah to you � from which it may be understood that these things are common among those people). Hence the texts of sharee�ah warn against mixing with and befriending non-Muslims. Allaah has commanded us to migrate from the kaafir lands to the lands of Islam, as He says:

�Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): �In what (condition) were you?� They reply: �We were weak and oppressed on the earth.� They (angels) say: �Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?� Such men will find their abode in Hell � what an evil destination!

Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way�

[al-Nisa� 4:97-98]

Abu Dawood narrated in his Sunan (2645) and al-Tirmidhi narrated in his Jaami� (1640) from the hadeeth of Jareer ibn �Abd-Allaah that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

�I disavow myself of every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.� They said, �O Messenger of Allaah, why?� He said, �Their fires should not be visible to one another�. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Irwa�, 1207.

Ibn al-Qayyim said in Tahdheeb al-Sunan (�Awn, 7/304): �What we learn from this hadeeth is that when people settle down in place, the first they do is to light a fire, and this fire may encourage others to come and join them, and anyone who comes near the fire is going to feel at ease with the people whose fire it is. The gathering around the fire of the mushrikeen is a gathering that calls people to the way of the Shaytaan and to Hellfire, because they gather only for the purpose of committing sin. The gathering of the believers around their fire is the gathering that calls people to Allaah and to obey Him and to make His religion prevail. So how can the two fires or the two gatherings be in harmony when this is the case? This is the most eloquent of metaphors, which contains a profound meaning in the most concise phrases.�

Abu Dawood (2787) narrated from Samurah ibn Jundub that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �Whoever joins a mushrik and lives with him is like him.� This was also narrated by al-Haakim (2/141) with a different isnaad; his version says: �Do not live with the mushrikeen and do not join them, for whoever lives with them or joins them is not one of us.� This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah, 2330, when the two isnaads are taken together.

Imam Ahmad (4/365) and al-Nasaa�i (4177) narrated that Jareer said: �I came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whilst he was accepting the people�s oaths of allegiance, and I said: �O Messenger of Allaah, give me your hand so that I may give you my oath of allegianc., and you may stipulate your conditions, for you know best.� He said, �I accept your allegiance on the basis that you worship Allaah, establish regular prayer, pay the zakaah, are sincere towards the Muslims and you forsake the mushrikeen.�� This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah, 636.

These texts indicate that the basic principle is that the Muslim should not settle among the kuffaar in their countries, and that he is obliged to move from those lands to the Muslim lands. An exception is made from that if his staying there is necessary, but necessity should not be blown out of proportion. If he Muslim has to be with them (the non-Muslims) physically, he should not be with them in his heart, and he must avoid mixing with them unnecessarily.

What you must do is to look for righteous friends among the Muslims who can help you to learn your religion and adhere to it. You must fill your spare time with reading Qur�aan and reading useful books about the biography of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions, and about the rulings, etiquette and morals of Islam; and with remembering Allaah (dhikr). Ibn al-Qayyim said in al-Waabil al-Sayyib (86), when listing the benefits of dhikr: �It is the easiest of acts of worship, but it is one of the best. Moving the tongue is easier than moving the limbs. If any part of a person�s body were to move as much as his tongue does, night and day, that would be extremely difficult for him.�

You can also make use of your time by listening to useful tapes and by surfing useful sites on the Internet.

Something else that will help you to stop mixing with non-Muslims is to remember that these kaafirs � even though they may have good manners and some good qualities � also do a number of seriously wrong things, any one of which is sufficient to nullify any good deeds that they may do. Among these evil things is the belief of the Christians � for example � that God is one of three (trinity), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�Surely, disbelievers are those who said: �Allaah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).� But there is no Ilaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God �Allaah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them�

[al-Maa�idah 5:73]

The other kaafir nations all attribute partners to Allaah, or else they do not believe in God at all.

The kuffaar in general do not believe in the Qur�aan or in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather they reject the Qur�aan and they reject our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); so how can a Muslim be inclined towards them with their kufr and misguidance?

Even if they give you some of your rights by treating you nicely, they do not give Allaah His rights and they do not give the Qur�aan its rights and they do not give our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) his rights. The rights of Allaah and His Book and His Prophet are more important than our personal rights. Remember this, for this is one of the things that will help you to hate them and regard them as enemies until they believe in Allaah alone, as mentioned in the aayah quoted above (interpretation of the meaning):

�Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: �Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allaah Alone��

[al-Mumtahanah 60:4]

But we reiterate that there is nothing to stop the Muslim from treating them kindly within the limits set by sharee�ah, especially if they are among those who treat us well. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�Is there any reward for good other than good?�

[al-Rahmaan 55:60]

3 � With regard to your mixing with non-Muslim girls, and your desire to get to know Muslim girls. You should note that one of the basic aims of Islamic sharee�ah is to protect people�s honour. Our sharee�ah has enjoined many rules and regulations to achieve this noble aim. One of the teachings of Islam is the segregation of men and women even in the mosque, which is the best and noblest of places. Muslim narrated in his Saheeh (440) from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �The best rows for men are the front rows and the worst are the back rows. The best rows for women are the back rows and the worst are the front rows.�

Al-Nawawi said in Sharh Saheeh Muslim (4/159): �What is meant by the worst rows for men and women is those which are least in reward and virtue, and the furthest removed from the shar�i aim. The best rows are the opposite. Rather the last row is the best for the women who are present with the men because it is farthest removed from mixing with the men, from seeing them and from becoming attracted to them when seeing their movements and hearing their speech and so on. The front row for the women is condemned for the opposite reasons. And Allaah knows best.�

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (837) that Umm Salamah said: �When the women stood up after the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) finished saying the salaam (at the end of the prayer), he would wait for a little while before standing up.� Al-Zuhri said: �I think � and Allaah knows best � that he waited so that the women could disperse before the people (i.e., the men) could catch up with them.�

If Islam teaches that men and women should be segregated in the mosques � which are the best and noblest of places � then it is even more appropriate that they be segregated elsewhere.

Moreover, learning is one of the noblest of aims, but sharee�ah also insisted that women should be segregated from men even this situation. Al-Bukhaari (101) and Muslim (2633) narrated that Abu Sa�eed al-Khudri said: A woman came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: �O Messenger of Allaah, the men have taken all your time. Give us (women) a day when we can come to you and you can teach us what Allaah has taught you.� He said, �Gather together on such and such a day.� So they gathered, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to them and taught them what Allaah had taught him�� (This version was narrated by Muslim).

And Muslim (885) narrated that Jaabir ibn �Abd-Allaah said: I attended Eid prayers with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He began the prayer before the khutbah, without any adhaan or iqaamah, then he stood, leaning against Bilaal, and enjoined fear of Allaah and urged us to obey Him. He preached to the people and reminded them. Then he went over to the women and preached to them and reminded them.

Another of the teachings of Islam in this regard is that Allaah has commanded men and women to lower their gaze. It is not permissible for a Muslim to look at a woman who is not his mahram, or for a woman to look at a man who is not her mahram. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts). That is purer for them. Verily, Allaah is All-Aware of what they do.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent��
[al-Noor 24:30-31]

Muslim narrated in his Saheeh (2159) that Jareer ibn �Abd-Allaah said: �I asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about an accidental glance, and he told me to avert my gaze.�

Abu Dawood (2149) and al-Tirmidhi (2777) narrated from Buraydah ibn al-Haseeb that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to �Ali: �O �Ali, do not follow one glance with another. You are permitted the first, but not the second.� This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Jilbaab al-Mar�ah al-Muslimah, p. 77

Islam also forbids a man to be alone with a non-mahram woman, and it forbids a man to shake hands with a woman who is not his mahram, and there are other rulings which we do not have room to go into in detail here. [For more information please refer to the answers to Questions nos. 2459, 2986, 9989]

These rulings apply in the case of both Muslim and non-Muslim women, unless they are the mahrams of the man.

Based on this, you must avoid mixing with non-mahram women, even if they are Muslim, and you should not respond to the deviant thoughts that the Shaytaan tries to put in your mind, such as the fact that some girls admire you and so on. Make earning the pleasure of Allaah your goal. Al-Tirmidhi (2414) narrated from �Aa�ishah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �Whoever seeks to please Allaah by angering the people, Allaah will suffice him against the people, but whoever seeks to please the people by angering Allaah, Allaah will leave him to the people.� This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah, 2311.

My brother, note that you may find this difficult to apply at first, but you must strive against your whims and desires. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�As for those who strive hard in Our Cause, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily Allaah is with the Muhsinoon (good doers)�

[al-�Ankaboot 29:69]

You have to endure and be more patient, and seek reward with Allaah, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allaah, so that you may be successful�

[Aal �Imraan 3:200]

You should note that if you are keen to fear and obey Allaah, you will ultimately find a way out from every difficulty, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�And whosoever fears Allaah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty)�

[al-Talaaq 65:2]

Everything that you used to find difficult will become easy, for Allaah can make any hard thing easy if He wills.

Moreover, others will see that you are adhering to the commands of your religion, which will make them respect you.

Finally, I urge you to call upon Allaah and make a lot of du�aa�, especially at the times and in the places where du�aa�s are answered, such as when prostrating, and before saying the salaam at the end of prayer, and in the last third of the night, and between the adhaan and iqaamah. Pray to Allaah to make you steadfast in Islam, and seek the help of Allaah to adhere to His commands and to keep away from disobedience. I ask Allaah to grant you a way out from every difficulty and worry. May Allaah be with you.

And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

---------------

Ibn Iblis

Once again, you're qouting 'snippets' of verses and judging an entire peoples on the very merit of a verse that Muhhamed himself did not write.

Quite the red herring and adress the issues I raised.

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will.
Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the
dower ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness;
on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take
a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings
about through it a great deal of good."

Sura An-Nisa: Women [Quran 4:19]

"Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents,
kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who
are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what
your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious."

Sura An-Nisa: Women [Quran 4:36]

See how this game can go both ways?

Cut the crap.

Deep

[edit on 7-11-2004 by ZeroDeep]

Sorry about the length of this post but
I dont want you thinking Im taking things out of context or cobbling hair brained ideas together to make my point
I'll let the imam speak

I suggest you just provide the link instead of wasting space.

Once again, like your freind and fellow hate mongerer, you have provided us with one 'arbritrary' example of one 'arbritrary' Iman speaking to a muslim; I have Muslims freinds, and have been raised around them my whole life, and yet have i ever seen any of my freinds denounce me in face of the Qu'ran or any other Holy Scripture.

Unless you can provide me with conclusive evidence that 'ALL' muslims are out to 'kill' un-believers, then i'll give you the benifit of the doubt; also, remember, there are atleast over 10 different sub-sects of Islam, please, for your own sake, take this in account..

This is a site to deny ignorance, not breed it.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Sorry about the length of this post but
I dont want you thinking Im taking things out of context or cobbling hair brained ideas together to make my point
I'll let the imam speak

I suggest you just provide the link instead of wasting space.

Once again, like your freind and fellow hate mongerer, you have provided us with one 'arbritrary' example of one 'arbritrary' Iman speaking to a muslim; I have Muslims freinds, and have been raised around them my whole life, and yet have i ever seen any of my freinds denounce me in face of the Qu'ran or any other Holy Scripture.

Unless you can provide me with conclusive evidence that 'ALL' muslims are out to 'kill' un-believers, then i'll give you the benifit of the doubt; also, remember, there are atleast over 10 different sub-sects of Islam, please, for your own sake, take this in account..

This is a site to deny ignorance, not breed it.

Deep

Look zippy your the one who said what you kees repeating as if it somehow makes you right the problem is the fundimental doctrine is flawsd
yopu have to twist Islam to make it peaceful
' you have to ignore hisctorical trext to interporet the quran so it is peacefull it either has contridictions or its a a war doctrine.
ask you muslim friends if the Quran has contridiction and find out what abrogation is on your own if you want to keep your friends

hmmm

one thing is interesting,

in all my 27 years of life, coming from a muslim country, not once have I been indoctrinated to kill all infidels, not by my imam, not by my religious family, not by my friends, not by my goverment.
I remember endless tirades about charity and giving money to poor, one of the main pillars of islam (something a lot of you great experts completely neglected to mention in your posts, a basic of belief has been completely ignored), I remember being taught to respect my parents and to cherish family relations and also quite a lot about creation of the world and descriptions of heaven, hell, afterlife.
I also remember stories about Moses and Jews being God's chosen people, Jesus and how he preformed miracles, healed the sick, stories about Abraham are somewhere in there too.

I guess my entire nation has missed all those classes when they teach about killing all infidels.

Luckily I encountered Ibn Iblis and a few others to enlighten me on that.



On a side note: some have refered to me as Mr. Paperclip. It is Miss Paperclip actually. *crowd gasps* Yes, in my country muslim women are educated, with university degrees, good jobs, dont wear headscarf and know how to use internet

Look zippy your the one who said what you kees repeating as if it somehow makes you right the problem is the fundimental doctrine is flawsd
yopu have to twist Islam to make it peaceful
' you have to ignore hisctorical trext to interporet the quran so it is peacefull it either has contridictions or its a a war doctrine.
ask you muslim friends if the Quran has contridiction and find out what abrogation is on your own if you want to keep your friends

My name is Deep, you can call me Deep; i find your constant remarks towards me and other members derogatory, you call us by our name, and not some cheap childish remarks.

You have not adressed the fundamental doctrine of Islam, nor given us some sort of socio-pyscological discourse as to the disposition of 'all' Islam peoples to revert to Violent crimes against non-believers.

I want you to remember something, 'zippy', so far, as is evident, Terrorists have killed more of thier 'own' peoples than they have non-believers.

I'am not ignoring anything, you're ignoring parts of thise 'historical text' (which is subject to the enviroment of its time) to twist Islam into a violent faith and all it's followers 'hate' mongerers..

You're not debating anything, you're just ranting.

Deep

FAir enough deep
And since we have the schloar here lets get down to it
Does the Quran contain any contridictions?

Clear case of thread bolting .Oh well‎

كافر‎ ‎

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL

Does the Quran contain any contridictions?

As you might know, the Qur'an is a book written in Heaven and then sent down through Gabriel to Mohammad. The original book in Heaven is perfect and contains no contradictions.
The book we have on earth is how human mind perceives the divine message. According to Muslim belief, the Qur'an recited by Mohammad is indeed quite close to perfection. By Mohammad's order people were required to memorize it word for word, everything he said that was a part of Qur'an was to be learned exactly as he said it. There were several people who were with him from day one, so the whole message is pretty much preserved as it was in the begining (unlike Bible, where we only have gospels of people who lived after Jesus). There is a thread on ATS, look for it, Seekerof wrote it I think, about how Qur'an came to be the book it is today, how various "Gospels" of Qur'an were avoided by preserving only one version, the one confirmed to be the original by those who walked the path with Mohammad.

Now, arabic language has evolved through centuries, so did Qur'an to some extent. Translations of Qur'an are not seen as God's message, they are seen as explanation, interpretation of the message. They are very much valid as a way to understand Qur'an, but the prayers are recited only in arabic, so that there is no confusion as to what you are saying to God. Also, that unites people of all races and nations, no matter where they come from, their message to God is the same.

So, the book in Heaven is perfect, original Qur'an is very close to perfection, translations can vary and contain contradictions.

Arabic language, their grammar, the way they say things, the vast complexity of the language makes it difficut to translate the Qur'an. One mistranslated word can change the whole meaning of the message.

Do you have any specific contradictions in mind?

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Ibn Iblis

Once again, you're qouting 'snippets' of verses and judging an entire peoples on the very merit of a verse that Muhhamed himself did not write.

Slow down. #1: I am not a hatemonger. You will never, EVER hear me attack Muslims as a people. It is their dogma I attack, and logically there is no defending it.

#2: I NEVER post 'snippets' of verses. They are complete and in context.

Your Qur'anic verse does contradict mine. Congratulations. However there is a story behind verse 004.024. We find it in Sahih Muslim, the second most sound (sahih) hadith:

Chapter 22: AL AZL (INCOMPLETE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE): COITUS INTERRUPTUS

Book 008, Number 3371:
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Is it not surprising that many of the school children in Beslan were raped?

Please, for the love of God, do not apologize for Islam. You invite death and oppression upon us all.

Originally posted by paperclip
hmmm

one thing is interesting,

in all my 27 years of life, coming from a muslim country, not once have I been indoctrinated to kill all infidels, not by my imam, not by my religious family, not by my friends, not by my goverment.

I remember endless tirades about charity and giving money to poor, one of the main pillars of islam (something a lot of you great experts completely neglected to mention in your posts, a basic of belief has been completely ignored), I remember being taught to respect my parents and to cherish family relations and also quite a lot about creation of the world and descriptions of heaven, hell, afterlife.

I also remember stories about Moses and Jews being God's chosen people, Jesus and how he preformed miracles, healed the sick, stories about Abraham are somewhere in there too.

I guess my entire nation has missed all those classes when they teach about killing all infidels.

Luckily I encountered Ibn Iblis and a few others to enlighten me on that.

On a side note: some have refered to me as Mr. Paperclip. It is Miss Paperclip actually. *crowd gasps* Yes, in my country muslim women are educated, with university degrees, good jobs, dont wear headscarf and know how to use internet

What country are you from?

Originally posted by paperclip

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL

Does the Quran contain any contridictions?

As you might know, the Qur'an is a book written in Heaven and then sent down through Gabriel to Mohammad. The original book in Heaven is perfect and contains no contradictions.

The book we have on earth is how human mind perceives the divine message. According to Muslim belief, the Qur'an recited by Mohammad is indeed quite close to perfection. By Mohammad's order people were required to memorize it word for word, everything he said that was a part of Qur'an was to be learned exactly as he said it. There were several people who were with him from day one, so the whole message is pretty much preserved as it was in the begining (unlike Bible, where we only have gospels of people who lived after Jesus). There is a thread on ATS, look for it, Seekerof wrote it I think, about how Qur'an came to be the book it is today, how various "Gospels" of Qur'an were avoided by preserving only one version, the one confirmed to be the original by those who walked the path with Mohammad.

Now, arabic language has evolved through centuries, so did Qur'an to some extent. Translations of Qur'an are not seen as God's message, they are seen as explanation, interpretation of the message. They are very much valid as a way to understand Qur'an, but the prayers are recited only in arabic, so that there is no confusion as to what you are saying to God. Also, that unites people of all races and nations, no matter where they come from, their message to God is the same.

So, the book in Heaven is perfect, original Qur'an is very close to perfection, translations can vary and contain contradictions.

Arabic language, their grammar, the way they say things, the vast complexity of the language makes it difficut to translate the Qur'an. One mistranslated word can change the whole meaning of the message.

You realize there are many, many Muslims who would consider you an apostate for what you've just written?

You realize there are many, many Muslims who would consider you an apostate for what you've just written?

Hehe, I don't think so. My entire nation holds this view and so do many other Muslims. Maybe Bin Laden or some other extremist would consider me an apostate, but I don't really care about their opinion.

I am from Bosnia, btw.

www.islamicweb.com...

The 'Ulamaa have mentioned ten actions that negate Islam (apostasy). These are:

Fourth, belief that there is a more perfect guidance than that of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alayhee wa sallam), or that there is a form of governance that is preferable to this, such as someone who prefers the rule of tyrants to that of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alayhee wa sallam).

Fifth, dislike of any part of the Revelation...is disbelief.

Also,

answering-islam.org.uk...

The Azhar University in Egypt

The University of Azhar in Egypt has been regarded through the years as the Mineret (light) of Islam for the entire Islamic world. The Legislative committee at the Azhar issued "The Bill of Legal Punishments". This book has been sent to all the Mosques in the West accompanied by a descriptive memorandum for these laws. The legislative committee requested Muslims to implement these penalties and comply with Islamic law. This bill was written both in Arabic and in English. It deals with the penalties imposed by Islamic law such as amputation of the thief's hand and the scourging of the wine drinker. However, we would like to deal here with the penalty for the apostate who relinquishes the Islamic faith.

Provisions Specific to Apostasy

The "Bill of Legal Punishments" says (p.12),

"A person guilty of apostasy (man or woman) shall be put to death if repentance is not made within the period allowed which shall not exceed sixty days. Repentance of a person who commits apostasy more than twice shall not be accepted.

The crime of apostasy is committed in the following ways:

1. making an explicit statement or committing an act definitely indicating renunciation of Islam,
2. denial of essential tenets of the faith,
3. bringing into ridicule through word or action, the Gracious Koran."

Allah says the Qur'an is untouched and uncorrupted by man, perfect. I could find the specifice verse(s) if need be.

In reality of course this is not true (the authenticity of the Qur'an), and I am glad you recognize this.

Unfortunately if you go to Saudi Arabia and try to tell people this they will cut your head off.

In Egypt it is also on the books that apostasy is punishable by death. This law is based on Muhammad's own words.

Originally posted by paperclip

You realize there are many, many Muslims who would consider you an apostate for what you've just written?

Hehe, I don't think so. My entire nation holds this view and so do many other Muslims. Maybe Bin Laden or some other extremist would consider me an apostate, but I don't really care about their opinion.

I am from Bosnia, btw.

your nation is the ummah

1. making an explicit statement or committing an act definitely indicating renunciation of Islam,
2. denial of essential tenets of the faith,
3. bringing into ridicule through word or action, the Gracious Koran."

I haven't done any of those things.
The essential tenets of faith are belief in God, prayer, fasting, zakat (giving money to poor) and Hajj, Pilgrimage to Mecca (if possible).
I didn't ridicule anything either.
And I also said that Quran IS perfect, translations contain errors and contradictions.

In my country, there is no death punishment for apostacy... there is no islamic law at all actually. You might be aware of the fact that there are MANY different versions of Islam depending on the country... or better, many different versions of how Islam is practiced and to what extent is Hadith ( word of man, therefore in no way an authority over Quran) applied in life.
A lot of rules apply only to Muslims, others who are not Muslims, do not have to abide by them.

My Quran does not contain any contridictions
you just have to know the order it was revealed in. then it makes sense.
Not much left but it makes sense.
This is really all that is left

paperclip,

These two have also forgot that many sub-sects of Islam were created after the death of Muhhamed and twisted the Qu'ran and wrote ahadeeths to meet thier own socio-political needs. I'm not sure what they are trying to insinuate by qouting 'one' iman out of the millions that live on this planet..

The Ismali sect of Islam is considered the most moderate, and even has a charity run by the head Iman, The Agha Khan, who donate billions to relief organizations the world over.

You two may want to check that out.

Deep

Is it not surprising that many of the school children in Beslan were raped?

Please, for the love of God, do not apologize for Islam. You invite death and oppression upon us all.

Are you sure about that? Can you prove that Children were raped in that school, and that it was commiting by Islamic peoples using the Qu'ran as justifications and maybe not just rancor human nature? Can you prove that it was Islamic terrorists who were reponsible for that attack on the school; did we forget that it was a Russian-Chech problem ?

I want some emperical facts, not 'crap' you just assume.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Is it not surprising that many of the school children in Beslan were raped?

Please, for the love of God, do not apologize for Islam. You invite death and oppression upon us all.

Are you sure about that? Can you prove that Children were raped in that school, and that it was commiting by Islamic peoples using the Qu'ran as justifications and maybe not just rancor human nature? Can you prove that it was Islamic terrorists who were reponsible for that attack on the school; did we forget that it was a Russian-Chech problem ?

I want some emperical facts, not 'crap' you just assume.

Deep

There is no assumption. Just a direct correlation between the actions of the Islamists and Islamic doctrine. PERIOD.

The Czechen 'rebels' are Muslims, they are funded and supported by al Qaeda, and they make no secret that it is Islam and jihad that drives them, not nationalism. ("The terrorists ran in yelling, 'Allahu Akhbar!'")

Unfortunately--and this is typical throughout history, as attrocities committed by Muslims have been ignored or whitewashed by historians and media--the rapes in Beslan were scarcely reported.

www.google.com...

These sources are more geared towards analysis, not straight reporting, with the exception of this Daily Mirror story:

Scores of the 323 who died -- including many children -- had been shot in the back. While despairing soldiers and rescue workers moved among the growing pile of body bags, it was revealed that an 18-month-old baby had been repeatedly stabbed by a black-clad terrorist who had run out of ammunition.

Other survivors told how screaming teenage girls were dragged into rooms adjoining the gymnasium where they were being held and raped by their Chechen captors who chillingly made a video film of their appalling exploits.

Judge for yourself.