Intelligent first cause: why it must exist

reply to post by NewAgeMan

A Perfect Reflection


But ONLY at this moment in earth evolution when there are self aware and reflective sentient observers on earth to observe it (in early earth history the moon appeared much much larger being much closer to the earth).

I say it's an allegory, intended for our recognition by God as the first/last cause and designer. Talk about far reaching control of space and time though..

People wanted evidence, well there it is right before our very eyes and in our midst so that it's unmistakable and undeniable.

And if you'd like to call it a pure "coincidence" I'm more than prepared to have that debate and show you how utterly preposterous such a notion is when the entire earth-moon-sun configuration is taken into account, along with the whole process of earth evolution in favor of life.

Regards,

NAM

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by HarryTZ

 

The theory of the "great expansion" or "big bang" which brought our universe to its current form is supported by observable evidence.

Should new evidence present itself that can change.

Notice the flexibility of science which is based on observable evidence and religion, by comparison, is not.

edit on 24-5-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Than it's a good thing I'm not religious, isn't it?

Originally posted by soyentist
reply to post by charles1952

 

That's fine, but that brand of reasoning has no place in the world of scientific thought. Science is the practice of experimentation, observation and categorization, not fabrication.

By that logic, string theory, dark matter, and gravitation must be fabricated. We cannot observe these directly, but we know they're there. Same with intelligent cause, however science is still rejecting that one for some reason.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by HarryTZ
The difference between me and the average scientist, is that I don't immediately reject a theory because it 'seems to mystical'.
The biased perspective that many scientists have is very limiting and ignorant. Objectively, a theory of 'God' or intelligent design is just as valid as any other theory. Open your minds and maybe we will finally get somewhere.

Except when you rejected string theory, right?

What a joke.

I don't know where you got that idea from, but it is not correct. I simply stated that it is far beyond human comprehension.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


That was very interesting. I had always wondered how it was possible that the sun and the moon aligned so perfectly during solar eclipses.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by soyentist
reply to post by charles1952

 

That's fine, but that brand of reasoning has no place in the world of scientific thought. Science is the practice of experimentation, observation and categorization, not fabrication.

By that logic, string theory, dark matter, and gravitation must be fabricated. We cannot observe these directly, but we know they're there. Same with intelligent cause, however science is still rejecting that one for some reason.

No no no no no no no.

The framework of Dark Matter and String Theory can be indirectly observed and are propped up with mathematical calculation.

What is the mathematical calculation that supports Intelligent Design?

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by HarryTZ
The difference between me and the average scientist, is that I don't immediately reject a theory because it 'seems to mystical'.
The biased perspective that many scientists have is very limiting and ignorant. Objectively, a theory of 'God' or intelligent design is just as valid as any other theory. Open your minds and maybe we will finally get somewhere.

Except when you rejected string theory, right?

What a joke.

I rejected string theory? Please, show me where.

If you can't navigate the first 3 pages of your own thread, there is really no reason to continue a conversation about the creation of the universe with you.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

What is the mathematical calculation that supports Intelligent Design?

The amalgamation of every mathematical calculation in existence. Not to mention the mathematical nature of the universe itself.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

If you can't navigate the first 3 pages of your own thread, there is really no reason to continue a conversation about the creation of the universe with you.

What conversation? All I remember is your insulting and putting me down. Adieu.

reply to post by HarryTZ

you must acknowledge that the universe had a cause.

Right in the very first sentence you got it wrong. There is NO reason to expect the universe to have a cause, purpose, or agenda. No justifiable reason at all.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

What is the mathematical calculation that supports Intelligent Design?

The amalgamation of every mathematical calculation in existence. Not to mention the mathematical nature of the universe itself.

In other words, you've got nothing.

It should have been expected.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Do you want some specific observable phenomena? I would tell you to take a look at literally anything in the universe, but I assume that that wouldn't be enough for you either.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

That was very interesting. I had always wondered how it was possible that the sun and the moon aligned so perfectly during solar eclipses.

It's more than interesting when you really look into it and play the tape all the way back to present, it's utterly astounding and ought to confound even the most staunch atheist if they were being completely open minded and intellectually honest in the face of all the data.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Right in the very first sentence you got it wrong. There is NO reason to expect the universe to have a cause, purpose, or agenda. No justifiable reason at all.

Except that it began. But alright.

Also, I'm going to assume that you did not finish reading the OP. If that is the case, I advise you to do so.

Originally posted by jiggerj
There is NO reason to expect the universe to have a cause, purpose, or agenda. No justifiable reason at all.

And yet here we are..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

It's more than interesting when you really look into it and play the tape all the way back to present, it's utterly astounding and ought to confound even the most staunch atheist if they were being completely open minded and intellectually honest in the face of all the data.

Ya, but can you really expect that much from an atheist?

reply to post by HarryTZ

They say they are all for evidence, and rigorous scrutiny and analysis, with an open mindedness that is not biased and is therefore receptive to all information and all data, so I don't see why not..? Unless they just have some sort of anti-religious axe to grind and nothing more, but that doesn't and cannot serve as a basis for unbelief or a lack of belief and hey let's face it we can't REALLY believe in something without ANY information because we believe what we know, what we discover and come to understand and recognize as truth. I myself was never really willing to accept anything without a valid reason to do so, so I investigated and what I've found in the process is by far more extraordinary even than what I might have expected to find or to find no evidence for.

Intelligent, what I call super-intelligent first cause IS proven because what we see and experience isn't mindless, random or chaotic and which demonstrates the properties of a design with life INTENDED and in mind right from the very origin or first/last cause, and here it is, at last - is ANYONE willing to celebrate at the wedding reception now that we're here?!

We're pathetic or most of us are, that even in the face of the evidence for intelligent design itself, we would rather turn away and relegate ourselves to mere "things" when that's not even in alignment with our very experience.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by jiggerj

Right in the very first sentence you got it wrong. There is NO reason to expect the universe to have a cause, purpose, or agenda. No justifiable reason at all.

Except that it began. But alright.

Also, I'm going to assume that you did not finish reading the OP. If that is the case, I advise you to do so.

edit on 24-5-2013 by HarryTZ because: (no reason given)

Sorry, I don't go that way. Once I hit BS I stop, and I don't care how reputable or intelligent a person is.

On your statement of 'Except that it began'...so what? Water runs downhill. What's its conscious purpose, goal, agenda? There is no reason to expect water to have a cause.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by HarryTZ

 

They say they are all for evidence, and rigorous scrutiny and analysis, with an open mindedness that is not biased and is therefore receptive to all information and all data, so I don't see why not..?

If that truly were the case, they would not be atheist, now would they?

Unless they just have some sort of anti-religious axe to grind and nothing more, but that doesn't and cannot serve as a basis for unbelief or a lack of belief

Hypocrisy in its finest, I tell you. Science is as much a religion as Christianity for this exact reason.

and hey let's face it we can't REALLY believe in something without ANY information because we believe what we know, what we discover and come to understand and recognize as truth. I myself was never really willing to accept anything without a valid reason to do so, so I investigated and what I've found in the process is by far more extraordinary even than what I might have expected to find or to find no evidence for.

I think the problem is that people assume spiritualists just come to these conclusions randomly and without reason. I cannot tell you how many times I have been accused of just 'making it up'.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by jiggerj
There is NO reason to expect the universe to have a cause, purpose, or agenda. No justifiable reason at all.

And yet here we are..

LOL I bet that makes a lot of sense to you, doesn't it?