Hey folks across the pond (uk) lets have a talk

After re-reading your OP I sort of understand what you are saying.

I think it's mutual respect that allows the police to go unarmed in England. America has beefed up violent steroid junkies posing as law enforcement - that causes tension and resentment, so it's an us against them mentality.

But sadly this London be-heading changes everything.

reply to post by BoogieMan911


Yes, but I dont think having an armed police force changes everything or is a bad thing, it might be a step in the right direction as long as they give citizens that same respect.

Originally posted by txinfidel
reply to post by BoogieMan911

 

Yes, but I dont think having an armed police force changes everything or is a bad thing, it might be a step in the right direction as long as they give citizens that same respect.

I think this is where there will be vast differences, we (as a population) have not grown up with firearms, nor do we have a similar respect for them as tool... (from my perspective) more awe for a toy than respect for a deadly tool. and that notion is going to permeate into the police force.. only those who are highly trained to use firearms do, and most police officers (from what I have read) have consistently fought against being armed..

While we might have a similar risk to you of the thug type of armed policeman, we'd also have the man boy with his toy.. which I actually find more scary..

As an american, I can say that we have lost our way as a society. Not that we dont believe in the same things (many of us) of what this country stands for. But to say that the average american which is not obese by the way has become complacent in many areas. It is a side affect of not having any wars on our own soil for many many years. I do not know if that is the case for great brittain, but here in the US many feel so secure that they feel that nothing bad will ever happen, then there are those like me who face hardships every day. Its a political divide. Yes we are rooted in the right to bear arms, but that doesnt mean the common citizen practice that right or even acknowledges it and what it stands for. It is a side affect.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Having been in that position my self I can agree with you. I have had a gun drawn at me unarmed by a police officer more than once.

Im not trying to knock on the police either but there are always a few that try to take things to extremes and that doesn't matter where you are in the world.

What happend yesterday was a disgusting and brutal murder. However, look at the response compared to the Boston Bombings, where an American city was basically on a pseudo Marshall law lock down.

I don't want my police looking like the Army as they do in America. The response to the Boston bombings from your LEO, was what looked like a dystopian future of a police state.

I think I know what type of reaction I'd rather see to a terrorist attack.

For whatever its worth there was a study done during the vietnam war, many americans when firing their arms shot too high (purposely) to avoid hitting their target because it is not really a human instinct to kill unless you are being threatened..with your life.

On the contrary if you have ever read the art of war, the true way to get somebody to fight and to kill is to put them in a situation where it is to kill or be killed.

However there is always a jackass who has no conscience or unaware of their own conscience at least.

reply to post by txinfidel


I understand you are not trying to knock the police when I first passed my driving test and got my first car I was stopped by the police within the first 30 mins, them recognising the heap of junk I was driving, and proceeded to show me everything that was wrong/illegal about the car.. and while it should have meant the car was confiscated, crushed, my licence revoked and find myself fined instead they showed me what to look for when buying a car and supported me in getting the garage I brought it from to fix the faults..I have used the checks they showed me for every car I have brought since..

For me those where the right kind of policmen, ones that help the public when things go wrong, doing what is right is not always about following the letter of the law.. sadly I feel we are finding ourselves more in societies that follow the letter of the law, whatever the new laws are rather than doing what is right.. which I think is deeply sad.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


yes I agree woodward. As someone said Americans are reactionary and that will be our downfall. But it really is not americans who are reactionary it is politicians who have a game plan.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


yes, there are also good policeman like that in America, bless their hearts.

As I mentioned Americans as a side affect many of us have lost our way, that includes police and even the military. What is happening in America is that those people take oaths to defend our constitution, but many dont abide by it. Then we have the hellbent creation of DHS which is actually modeled after the KGB and also the SS but more less the KGB and its operators were former KGB. Anyways the FPS (federal protection security) which is actually owned by Russia is the us umbrella for DHS which roughly has the same translation of KGB and SS. It is history repeating itself.

Now like I said there are sherifs and constables here that are elected, but the municipal (city) police are not and neither are the DHS I can not stress the importance of this enough.

reply to post by txinfidel


I grew up in what is the UKs Gay capital (Brighton) and as a heterosexual it was always great (more girls for greedy me) however growing up there was no where near the levels of homophobic issues as there are today.. and the reason is simple that it was not legislated for or against and it was left to peoples own moral compass, and on the whole people tend to lean towards what is right..

Now we have laws that dictate what can and can not be said/done therefore people now operate within the letter of the law, not within their own moral compass so more unpleasant things happen, not only that it has forced those people to congregate together in their own areas rather than spread out in and part of the wider community..

Following the Letter of the law and doing what is right seem to be on two different planes, when you have government agencies dealing with issues now it seems they only follow the letter of the law rather than their own or their own countries moral compass of what is right, and this opens the door to real institutional abuse of the wider population that is legal but wrong.

I hope I am conveying this in the right way, my feeling is these organisations have lost sight of what is right and wrong..

Technically theres nothing to stop the UK police force being armed today but the general police force don't want that as it will encourage more criminals to carry guns and so the vicious circle begins which will lead to more people getting shot as at the moment theres a balance between the average criminal and the average officer but when all PC plod has to do is pull out a gun and stick a dozen rounds into a fleeing burglar with a DVD player under his arm they'll start to carry as it will be impossible to run away so they'll fight and thats when innocent people get caught

And the BBC while being supported via a license fee its not a total lapdog to the government and does have its good points in that theres no frickin adverts and when they have a program on politics they'll take on anyone government or opposition and go in for the kill and unlike ITV they don't go onto the adverts 5 seconds before someone scores in a football match

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Its not that they lost sight of what is right and wrong. I promise you they know the difference. What is happening and this happens in America is political correctness and it is designed to divide and conquer. The problem with gay marriage is not allowing a civil union. It is the fusion between religion and government but more importantly it allows the state to not only destroy the family unit but divide it into political camps that are as shameful as they are morally degrading. Going back to the right to bare arms, when citizens are denied the right to bare arms it usually ends up with millions dead. Going back to Islam, the first step is a truly democratic form of government where they parrot equality and all that mumbo jumbo and what happens is that when there is a democracy, no one is really in charge so what happens is that the local government is overthrown by a violent insurrection and that is how they get to sharia law.

Sorry I know Im going off topic here, but just telling it from my perspective.

reply to post by Maxatoria


Didn't you guys in the UK just stand silently by as some supposedly immigrant black men machete someone to death? And the people stood by and did nothing to stop it?

Thanks all for the good discussion. Ill be back later.

Thanks also for the civility I feel as though we are getting good things out of this discussion.

Originally posted by txinfidel
As a brit? Do you feel it is really that bad for your police to be armed? Aside from corruption of course because that is everywhere. And do you feel as a brit or an American there is a middle road?

I dont personally but I think there are lessons that both sides can be learned from each other as long as we are being honest.

edit on 23-5-2013 by txinfidel because: (no reason given)

The police are armed - they have gun squads and you dont wanna cross them because they shoot to kill, not injure. They even execute cows who unfortunately have wandered from their fields. They are a rough / hard lot if you ask me.

The general coppers / bobbies - they have now become a politically correct militia - as much as many Britons on here deny that - it is true. I would NOT trust them with guns.

The days of Dixon of Dock Green are another world.

As an aside - it was a terrorist attack in Greenwich they murdered, butchered and decapitated a young soldier whilst screaming '' allah akbar''

London is now an African / Asian / Eastern European city - the English have left, check out 2011 footage of London riots on youtube.

The Met [ metropolitan police] were powerless, they just watched as thugs ran riot and terrorised people etc.
The police are afraid to arrest anyone who is not English for fear of being called a racist.

We live in weird days - this country has completely changed in the last 15 years. 15 million foreigners have come to live here [ we are a tiny island ] and most schools in London have less then 8% of English children in attendance.

I do not recognise this land anymore.

reply to post by HelenConway


Couldn't of said it better myself, we are foreigners in our own country.

Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by Maxatoria

 

Didn't you guys in the UK just stand silently by as some supposedly immigrant black men machete someone to death? And the people stood by and did nothing to stop it?

What would you have done? There were Two Phyco's with knives there mate.

Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.

Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by Maxatoria

 

Didn't you guys in the UK just stand silently by as some supposedly immigrant black men machete someone to death? And the people stood by and did nothing to stop it?

Yes all of us, everyone.

reply to post by NeverMind2013


Really? That's your answer? Wow, this is what an unarmed society is.