Predestined for Glorification

We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.

Well said, but have you dealt with the other side of the question, that we ARE NOT predestined for damnation, for Hell, for eternal punishment? All will be Glorified in time, or God can not become All in all. That leaves no room for anyone to remain lost.

reply to post by newnature


Good thread. We are the body of Christ as believers if we were baptized with Christ into this life. Baptism has a hidden meaning that I cover in many of my threads. Keep in mind that our immersion into the body of Christ allows us to walk the same path. We are the cup bearer of Genesis 41. The baker bakes the bread. Christ is the heel on either end.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

One loaf of bread implies a heel on either end.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[

Adam is on either end. Being clothed with the new man is the key, yet we are not there yet. Salvation comes when Christ (The first new man) appears to show us the way forward. Our new Robe is the wool that is shed by the sheep in the wilderness. It is washed and given back to us as a new body. The good works we are destined for come in the remaining 1000 years. You must be born again and this is what baptism into Christ implies. The Blood (Tree of Life) is shed for us.

Read my threads. I give much more information on this subject. Once you see it from the larger picture, you suddenly realize how the involvement in the material world produces the new person we become later. We are destined for more than what you see today.

Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The head crushing is happening as we move into the next 1000 years. The Heel is the key.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Well said, but have you dealt with the other side of the question, that we ARE NOT predestined for damnation, for Hell, for eternal punishment? All will be Glorified in time, or God can not become All in all. That leaves no room for anyone to remain lost.

I agree with your statement because of Matthew 3. John / Elijah was telling us how to prepare the way for Christ. he also told us what happens to those who ignore the water. Those who do not put out fire with water end up being baptized by Fire and Spirit. Why? Read this thread. Glass and Ceramic - Fire or Extreme Heat? What kind of fire does it take to melt ceramic to mold it into something useful? As Matthew 18 states, the First will be last (Prideful Souls) and the last will be first (Humble Souls). The last is fire and the first is water. Noah survived by the ARK. After the ARK, the world would be destroyed by Fire. Either way, God is at work with all of humanity. You must be born again. Baptism into the water of life is our opportunity to put out the fire. The Christian that repents will be saved in the water rather than face the fire.

reply to post by newnature


If you have truly been saved and become one with Christ, then you are one with the Spirit of love, the Holy Spirit. If the spirit of love is in you and guiding you then you know you have been saved by Christ. Because Christ and the Sprit of love, the Holy Spirit, are one.

Even though we are saved by grace it does not mean that we can still live in sin. We need to live by the Spirit and not the flesh.

Romans 6:1-7

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Does that mean we will lead a sinless life? Of course not...the flesh will always war against the Spirit. But sin will not (or should I say..should not) have dominion over us.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight


I agree with your statement because of Matthew 3. John / Elijah was telling us how to prepare the way for Christ. he also told us what happens to those who ignore the water. Those who do not put out fire with water end up being baptized by Fire and Spirit. Why? Read this thread. Glass and Ceramic - Fire or Extreme Heat? What kind of fire does it take to melt ceramic to mold it into something useful? As Matthew 18 states, the First will be last (Prideful Souls) and the last will be first (Humble Souls). The last is fire and the first is water. Noah survived by the ARK. After the ARK, the world would be destroyed by Fire. Either way, God is at work with all of humanity. You must be born again. Baptism into the water of life is our opportunity to put out the fire. The Christian that repents will be saved in the water rather than face the fire.

Yes! Even those who face the fire, as you say, will be saved, but as through fire, as the Bible says, and suffering loss in the process. It would seem better to lose you wood, hay, and stubble sooner than later.

Originally posted by kijne
Even though we are saved by grace it does not mean that we can still live in sin. We need to live by the Spirit and not the flesh.

Romans 6:1-7

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Does that mean we will lead a sinless life? Of course not...the flesh will always war against the Spirit. But sin will not (or should I say..should not) have dominion over us.

The flesh will war against the Spirit, but the Spirit is mightier than the flesh. When God brings us to repentance, and it is He who must do it, for the natural man cannot, the Holy Spirit begins to work in us, from the inside out, and the flesh cannot stop the process. What God does in and for us is so awesome, it makes our will and our attempts at righteousness seem quite puny.

Originally posted by kijne


Does that mean we will lead a sinless life? Of course not...the flesh will always war against the Spirit. But sin will not (or should I say..should not) have dominion over us.

You can lead a life that is free from acting on sin. If you can learn to see your emotions as reminders of what is against love, you can learn to listen to them.

If you are having a conversation with someone and a disagreement arises, the spirit of anger may come to you. Listen to the spirit and understand why it came. Now instead of becoming angry, you can discuss the anger that came to you. Then you can overcome it. Now instead of giving into the anger and committing sin, you have overcome and defeated anger. Simply because you were aware of what is happing, and you choose to take the path of peace and love.

You can always overcome sin. It is vital that you accept this as the truth. It is possible on your journey you will stumble but you can always get back up. Gods love is unconditional. You can overcome.

You can always overcome sin. It is vital that you accept this as the truth. It is possible on your journey you will stumble but you can always get back up. Gods love is unconditional. You can overcome.

I agree completely. We can...and should overcome sin. My point is that we will mess up from time to time.

Originally posted by kijne

You can always overcome sin. It is vital that you accept this as the truth. It is possible on your journey you will stumble but you can always get back up. Gods love is unconditional. You can overcome.

I agree completely. We can...and should overcome sin. My point is that we will mess up from time to time.

That is why Jesus said to forgive 70 X 7.

reply to post by kijne


It's a fine line.

The church teaches us that we are sinners and thus if we believe them we can never overcome what we are.

Christ said we are sons of God sent to overcome sin. Believe this and this will become your reality.

There is a subtle but profound difference in these two thoughts.

reply to post by newnature

We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance.

How do you know any of what you are saying is true?
Is it true just because you say so?
I notice that you do not quote a single Bible verse to back up your theories.
The Bible has two main sections, the Old Testament, and the New Testament.
Both take up a significant amount of space to legitimise their particular systems of salvation.
In the first one, you have Israel and its clan deity which saves the menders of that community.
The ones who do not follow the rules of being a member are cast out and are then not "saved".
In the second one, you have the church, with its cult deity, Jesus.
Being in the "body of Christ" makes you saved, that is, a member of the church.
The requirement of membership is first believing, then baptism, and repentance, for the forgiveness of sins.
To remain in the body as a member requires what Paul called, Faith, which serves the same function as the Law did in the first system.

What you are presenting is a theory devised in the Dark Ages, that salvation was like going to court and receiving a verdict of guilt or innocence, then going out with a signed and sealed decree which was good for all eventualities, including entrance through the Pearly Gates.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by newnature

jjmdewey60
In the second one, you have the church, with its cult deity, Jesus.
Being in the "body of Christ" makes you saved, that is, a member of the church.
The requirement of membership is first believing, then baptism, and repentance, for the forgiveness of sins.
To remain in the body as a member requires what Paul called, Faith, which serves the same function as the Law did in the first system. What you are presenting is a theory devised in the Dark Ages, that salvation was like going to court and receiving a verdict of guilt or innocence, then going out with a signed and sealed decree which was good for all eventualities, including entrance through the Pearly Gates.

I suppose even if you obeyed all of the rules of the New Testament, piousness, loved (tolerated) your neighbor gave penance, tithed a portion of your income to the church; sold your daughter to Satan just as a backup plan you WOULD arrive at the pearly gates and be asked this question. "SO, did you believe it or just go along with the doctrine in/of FEAR of some sort of retribution?". Answering yes to either (I suspect) would recieve this answer. "You are a fool, you can seek out God as your creator ALL BY YOURSELF (without rules of tenent) cannot think for yourself and are denighed entrance; as those books were written by men that have organized themselves and have an agenda, throw them away as they are spurious and self seeking, meaning you do not have to be bullied into "Gratification/Grace" status". The faith quotient lies within the individual FOR ITSELF, believeing in itself first, and why not as we are the vessels of God, it intent, its good deeds.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Great words in this thread. Thank you for sharing. It's rare to hear someone standing on the promises.

reply to post by newnature

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice.

If 'sin' is harming others, then that is impossible to do in God's 'grace'.

(Grace, as in realizing Truth and living in it)

Revelation 22:13
I am The Alpha and The Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

What is the beginning?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

All light (appearances/form) came from darkness (emptiness/space).

God is the beginning and end (eternal - darkness)

The darkness within the light. The emptiness/space within the form. The eternal within the material body.

All is complete as all is already connected to the beginning and the end (eternal), and emptiness (darkness) is watching the light/form of the material body.

Any ideas of 'good' and 'bad' comes from 'The Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil'.
("Do not judge" - Matthew 7:1 )

There is nothing that 'needs' to be grabbed or done. Understanding this will bring peace and lessen greed (wanting more and more - desire) and the need to control (aggression).

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Great words in this thread. Thank you for sharing. It's rare to hear someone standing on the promises.

I humbly thank you.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think you totally misunderstood the OP, and I find it very odd to see you coming on with the tack you are taking. Perhaps you could tell the rest of us Christians what is wrong with the OP's theology in a little more detail...?

BTW, if you only dropped in for an argument, I am not going to argue with you.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I am not going to argue with you.

This thread is spam.
So I did not expect an argument, especially by the spammer who started this thread, which is almost identical to others he deposits and never defends.
My "tack" is telling the truth according to the Bible and pointing out that the OP spam is just that, which is a theory based on Medieval theology, from people reading a Latin translation of the New Testament, and influenced by the late empire system and then feudalism and the church/state system of government.
I realize a lot of people think they feel happy, as the OP does, believing in this theory of salvation, but it does not lead to long term happiness, in my opinion.
What makes for real happiness and the improvement of the world we live in, is the absolute necessity of not a metaphorical righteousness that somehow is just conferred to you by decree, but real righteousness that you have by actually doing righteous things.
Christianity was not created for the afterlife, it was created for this life.
I understand the OP's premise, but in real life, I don't see it working out.
What I do see working out is knowing that there is a judgment that awaits us and it will be based on how we live our lives, and that forcing us into a conversion to where we truly repent of wrongdoing, and get down on our knees and beg God to give us the strength to do what is right, knowing that we have to, or else.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think the OP is saying that God performed a radical transformative work in recognition that of ourselves we lacked the fundamental integrity needed to be at one with God as the all in all, who is all good, all loving and all righteous and that therefore he set up a standard, an incorruptible, indestructible standard which is simultaneously the very height of the twin pillars of a severe justice and a tender mercy, which is the very tree of life we are re-grated onto and conjoined with.

It's a motivator, but according to it's power of liberation. It's beyond human conceptions of justice and of should and should not, but it makes us want to do and be good out of the incalculable bounty of what we've already freely received. We can bathe in it, in what's already been done for us and in so doing become steeped in it's loving living water of life.

It is the dualistic mind which is part of the problem that is incapable of understanding and recognizing the power of God's grace in Jesus Christ and his cross as the thing he was born for, to face and to resolve in the right way.

It's the mind obsessed with trying to be good in order not not to not be bad (eating of the tree of the knowledge and judgement of good and evil) which never gets you to where God wants us to be, which is wholly good for goodness' sake according to the heart of Christ which is also the heart of the law and the law of life and love.

Who could see it and then proclaim that by our own righteousness we must earn eternal life, and if that were so, what precisely are we to do, and are compelled to do, and where is the freedom in that?

Love to be love must be free.

That's the love of God in and through the person of Jesus, through whom it became transparent, in the form of Grace without which it's just a concept, not the fullness of the truth of God's love, and the magnitude of his genius which of it's own accord binds our evil and wickedness, perhaps the worst of all being that which would deny the power of the cross to redeem and to forgive..

Our "work" is to believe and receive and forgive as we are forgiven while loving more as we are loved. It's a matter of the heart out of which all words and deeds flow.

I love Jesus Christ for not only teaching the way of heaven but being it for me and filling in my gaps so that I might have a way back to God without being orphaned. His forgiveness is obvious. We needn't be concerned then with sin as some sort of permissive thing how absurd! It's actually very funny when you really think it through all the way because sin is absurd and leads only to unhappiness, and it's all forgiven - that doesn't motivate one to sin, just the opposite since "what you resist only persists" (Carl Jung).