Jeremy Scahill and Noam Chomsky: The Truth About America's Secret, Dirty Wars

reply to post by seagull

Now comes the hard part.

Doing something about it.

Telling the truth is doing something about it.

Most people will not even want to be seen listening to the truth, much less actually saying it.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Wow! Thanks, jmdewey!
I am just really, so embarrassed that I was so deluded!

Great that you responded. I really appreciate it.

reply to post by wildtimes

. . . he knows all about the 'conspiracy' theories around 9/11 (says he's 85% convinced it was an inside job), and how the big banks run everything.

It was.
I'm 100% convinced of it.
And that is not a theory, but personal experience.
See my thread, How To Make A Convincing looking Plane Crash
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Slugworth

In other words, we should stop fantasizing about parties and left/right ideologies, stop making excuses for a politician just because we voted for them, be willing to denounce that elected official if necessary, and start judging people according to their actions, policies, and the company they keep.

Thanks. Yes. That.
I remain appalled, and shocked. But I'm trying to do the right thing. While on one hand I don't agree with 'judging' people, on the other I think it is imperative that we speak up about what we learn.

reply to post by wildtimes


I'm probably the wrong one to ask. I tend to be really pessimistic about politics and humanity in general, at least in the short term. I don't think we are doomed as a species, but I doubt much real progress will be made in our lifetime or the next. I wish I had something better to offer but I don't. Voting is rigged, government is privately owned, and the people are content.

I think its possible that in 500 years this current era will be considered a dark age. The people who study us in 2500 will probably wonder why we hadn't colonized the moon or mars despite having the technology and resources to do so. They will look at the beliefs that are now considered mainstream and wonder how anyone could be so dense. They won't be able to comprehend giving 1/3 of our budget to the military, or the fear that people have of reducing that number. It will be like when we read about leaches being used to drain bad humors from sick people, or the fear of cats during plagues.

Originally posted by wildtimes
ANOK, I actually thought that you might have noticed my many posts and threads that already promote those ideals. Oh well.

Hmmm yes I might have seen your posts before, but unfortunately your name doesn't ring a bell. Maybe it's been awhile? I have to admit to having a slowly deteriorating memory, it's just early onset dementia, nothing to worry about. Did you change your avy recently? I tend to remember people better by their avy lol. Didn't mean to be patronizing in my post, just wanted to offer the information, my apologies.

I will remember you now though.

I'm not the center of the universe, or the focus of anyone's attention. But, I try, in my small way, to contribute to the cause. I'm a 'Progressive' and also a 'Democratic Socialist', and have starred MANY of your posts.

Thanks for participating here.

Thanks for staring my posts, I always wonder who does lol. My personal contribution to the "cause" is pretty limited these days, all I can do is offer a little truth, and hope it influences someone to go look into it all for themselves.

reply to post by wildtimes


I'm going to have a read of the story as soon as I post this but wanted to comment first before reading an article of that length.

This has been going on for quite some time, since the onset of the Cold War at the very least, and in other forms for longer, but the magnitude and scope has exploded since the start of the War on Terror.

Bush laid the ground work with stuff like this, the enhanced interrogation techniques they legalized...

Part 1 of the OLC memo on EIT in .pdf
Part 2 of the OLC memo on EIT in .pdf

and the ways and means of capturing or removing those same people.

Once upon a time, regime change was the goal and Communism was the enemy. They went about those type of goals differently than today. Revolutions would be started by locals with a little helping hand. Now days it's moved from a political ideal to a religious one. Obama's counter terrorism through drone strike has brought this an entirely new level. No need to actually overthrow governments when you can just fly over 5 miles up and drop a few missiles here and there and rarely admit that it happened but admit to the program operating.

A chart like this makes it pretty clear...


Source

That's just Pakistan and look how the number rises as Obama comes to power. Many of those attacks require SF on the ground.

There is plenty of info on the use of drones in the major hot spots here...

alhittin.com...

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes it is doing something. It's a start towards it anyway...

What to do...

It depends, I suppose, upon your views of just how bad the problem is... Some of you, and I name no names, are of the opinion that it's too late to change things, at least peacefully. I've not reached that point. I believe that we can change things, and for the better...

It'll take work, and might take a while...

The Solution, or solutions...('cause there isn't one solution).

1) Getting Involved. Politically. Socially. Even little things will help. Most large solutions are just a lot of little problems being solved by little solutions...

2) Getting others involved. Dare I say "community organizer"? To foment change, we need to be "we", "us", and a "single voice". Whatever the problem is that we see, it needs addressing in plain terms, or the truth as your group sees it. Calmly. Coolly. With a decided lack of hysteria.

3) Long attention span. The average American voter has the attention span of a two year old. Meaning, what's important today, tomorrow isn't... Is it any wonder nothing changes? We must stay on topic. What ever the issue? It must be the same one tomorrow, next week, next year...so long as it remains a problem. Example? The civil rights movement. It wasn't a month long protest, it was most of my lifetime. ...and is revisited from time to time, just to make sure that it remains at the forefront in importance.

4) The PTB must begin to fear us. Not the opposite. That means removing them from office by whatever means are available. Electing new reps. as necessary. Putting pressure on elected officials to remove appointed officials if they're screwing us. Repeating as necessary, whenever necessary.

5 (and most important of them all...)) Repeat the above when necessary, and as often as necessary. Because it's a never ending process. Finish one tomorrow? There'll be another the day after that, that'll need addressing.


This will require that we forego watching the reruns of "friends", or maybe missing the Seahawk game on FOX this weekend. There'll always be another "friends" marathon, and another football game. But our freedoms, once gone, will be gone forever.

Preachy, I know...

reply to post by seagull

Thanks for posting this, seagull.
I agree with you that it isn't quite too late yet....
and all of your suggestions are excellent.

We have to keep speaking up, and spreading the information to those not paying attention.

It's rather demoralizing to feel so powerless as one individual, but by speaking to people who will then possibly speak to other people, we can still do something as a collective.

reply to post by wildtimes


ok I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and give you credit where credit is due. Now maybe you will look deeper into the agendas of the Shadow Govt left and right

Here is an example of what is being implemented

Section 1. Policy. Sixteen percent of the American population lives in rural counties. Strong, sustainable rural communities are essential to winning the future and ensuring American competitiveness in the years ahead. These communities supply our food, fiber, and energy, safeguard our natural resources, and are essential in the development of science and innovation. Though rural communities face numerous challenges, they also present enormous economic potential. The Federal Government has an important role to play in order to expand access to the capital necessary for economic growth, promote innovation, improve access to health care and education, and expand outdoor recreational activities on public lands.

As the Executive Order references “sustainable rural communities,” it raises a few eyebrows, since that is one of the key phrases found in the UN plan for sustainable development known as Agenda 21. The order admits that it intends to seize greater power over “food, fiber, and energy,” items that are key to human sustenance.

thenewamerican.com...

This is where it is all going. The wars are just part of the program.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Gee, thanks. How very courteous of you.

I am aware of Agenda 21, and it's a list of suggestions.

I still see you sensationalizing it ala Beck & Co., though. What he claims and what it really is are two different things entirely, but the GOP has tried to demonize the ideas, because, well, that's what they do.

I spent about an hour online this morning looking at the stances of different media networks and personalities. I just don't see the same 'threats' that you do. You've yet to stop attackinig "Progressives" and "liberals" as commies and tyrants, despite numerous efforts to give you more information.

I debated for a while whether or not to respond to you at all.

Agenda 21 is a 300-page document divided into 40 chapters that have been grouped into 4 sections:

Section I: Social and Economic Dimensions [edit]
This section is directed toward combating poverty, especially in developing countries, changing consumption patterns, promoting health, achieving a more sustainable population, and sustainable settlement in decision making.

Nothing there to worry about. Sounds good to me. Erm...stop WASTE and GREED, promote HEALTH, and BIRTH CONTROL

Section II: Conservation and Management of Resources for Development [edit]
Includes atmospheric protection, combating deforestation, protecting fragile environments, conservation of biological diversity (biodiversity), control of pollution and the management of biotechnology, and radioactive wastes.

Yep, works for me there, too! Stop POLLUTION, stop BULLDOZING and RAPING forests and jungles, PROTECT fragile places like the Coral Reefs, for example, or STOP spilling oil and fracturing the earth's surface and strip-mining. Sign me up.

Section III: Strengthening the Role of Major Groups [edit]
Includes the roles of children and youth, men, women, NGOs, local authorities, business and workers and strengthening the role of indigenous peoples, their communities, and farmers.

Oh my! They want to strengthen the populace! Oh noez!! Children, women, youth, non-govt orgs, business people AND their employees, and allow indiginous people to live the way they want to! FARMERS! Sorry, doesn't sound like global gloom and doom to me.

Section IV: Means of Implementation [edit]
Implementation includes
science,
technology transfer,
education,
international institutions and
financial mechanisms.

check,
check,
check,
check, and
hold up. As long as this means THEY ABOLISH THE FED and GUT THE BIG BANKS of their power, I'm good. Even better if they shut down Wall Street altogether, because profit-based business that dehumanizes PEOPLE (who then die in collapsed garment factories, etc) is WRONG at EVERY LEVEL.

The "financial mechanisms" are probably the BIGGEST factor in the world's problems, and it is due to the Shadow Cabal, I have not denied that. Their support of what Wall Street and the global corps have done is sickening, and it's the ONLY reason to fight this. And I know your biggest worry is your precious money. That's just sad.

The rest of the points are fine, and nowhere does it say they want to implement "eugenics!!" (as you frequently shout), or reducing the population via genocides and other such Nazi tactics (which you also emphasize and about which you are also wrong). Nothing about "Obamacare death panels" (at least in terms of the health of citizens) or "stealing your money"... the "Terror Tuesdays" meetings that go on, however, in the White House where they name people who they are going to kill 'in the name of terrorism' is another matter entirely, and to THAT I am entirely opposed.

Sometimes I wonder if you wake up hysterical every morning and what it must be like to be so deeply entrenched in KNOWN conspiracy theorists such as Beck, or biased "not-news-but-fear-mongering" Fox News. I see that you are not unintelligent, and that you have LOTS of information packed between your ears.

It's when you BLATANTLY misconstrue what "progressives" and "liberals" want, and continue to defend Capitalism at its WORST, and refer to blowhard non-journalists as "expert opinions" that you lose credibility with me.

But again, thanks for your cordial, non-hating response. I think. If you'd have the equal wherewithal to look up what's WRONG with the rantings of Beck, Palin, Bachmann, etc, just like you expect others to look things up, you'd have a better outlook. Most educated people realize that he's not worth taking seriously. I hope you'll step up, like I did, and really, REALLY view who it is you think is worth following and, worse, believing.

You made a reply on another of my threads where I brought up how big business has destroyed the American way of life and is "pillaging across the globe like a modern-day Attila the Hun," (WHICH IT IS) but you just can't see it.

And for those reasons, I really don't see much point in talking to you. We don't really REALLY know who the shadow government are, and most analysts agree that even the actors in it don't actually know who is at the helm. THAT is what worries me.

reply to post by wildtimes

Your source, The New American, is just more of the same.
from wiki

It has been described as radical right-wing.[6][7]
...
The society has been described as "ultraconservative",[20] "far right",[21] and "extremist".[22]

At the bottom is a 'related link' that points to The Dominionists. Imagine that! Maybe you missed this one: my thread about the Dominionists and the Far-Right Conservative Coalition

THOSE are the scary people, ThirdEye. So is Beck. And your "New American" is the John Birch Society.

This thread was about specifics of 'black ops' that I was aware are part of the government expenditures, but it provided me more information about them, and it's sickening.

reply to post by wildtimes

the GOP has tried to demonize the ideas, because, well, that's what they do.

Statements like this are a signal to me that a person has bought into the common political propaganda to a significant extent, regardless of who they are directed at. If someone made the same statement about democrats it would be the same red flag. There is no dirty tactic or immoral approach imaginable that only one party is guilty of committing. The democrats demonize ideas as well, and implying that the demonization of ideas is limited to one party is to ignore the same behavior on the other side.

Blind allegiance to party is why Bush was able to do his terrible things, and why Obama is able to do the same now. I have yet to see a sea of protest signs that say "Obama lied, people died", but that phrase was ubiquitous during Bush's term.

I wish people would spend less time criticizing the opposing party and more time criticizing their own party. I identify more closely with republican beliefs than democrats. I could complain all day about democrat policy and actions, but I would rather think critically about what the republicans are doing wrong because they are supposed to be representing me if I voted for them.

Allegiance to a party should not be given unconditionally, nor should opposition. I tend to vote more for republicans but have voted for democrats as well. I'm not loyal to republicans, nor am I opposed to democrats. They are both capable of producing good and bad. I hold the people who I voted for to a much higher standard than the ones I voted against.

I haven't read every comment yet so if this has been mentioned, forgive me.

I think it would behoove the OP and like -- minded folks, be they Left leaning or Right, to be officially anti Republican and anti Democrat, in contrast to anti Bush or in this case anti Obama. All politicians are leading us in the same direction. The next president will continue what the previous two and many before them have either continued or began. It matters not their platform nor party. They will continue an agenda that has long been in place and unfortunately we are at a heavy disadvantage. Somewhat related to what I written here, I would be extremely surprised to see another one-term-president, at least in my lifetime and I'm also willing to say that any one of us will be able to predict every president with remarkable accuracy by using a lil deductive reasoning. I believe I will be able to anyway.

reply to post by Slugworth

Blind allegiance to party is why Bush was able to do his terrible things, and why Obama is able to do the same now. I have yet to see a sea of protest signs that say "Obama lied, people died", but that phrase was ubiquitous during Bush's term.

Fair enough.

Yet, I don't have 'blind allegiance'....registered 'unaffiliated', thanks very much.....

but I admit that I did buy into the rhetoric of the campaign(s).

I'm saying right now, 'Obama lied', and there's not much more I can do to stand against what I see happening.

reply to post by CheckPointCharlie


I was as neutral as I could be. I actually followed the media coverage of each party's platforms; read about the candidates; listened to the debates.....with no leaning either way.......just wanting to hear what they had to say based on that exposure.
I also perused news sources from both camps...I looked LONG AND HARD at this whole thing.

I trusted.

And then I was disappointed. Now I know that.
This is not my first 'awakening' episode. Not my first time around the block of 'gullible.'

So, kindly read through the rest of the thread, and if you need to, look at my threads and post histories.....
but please, do not label me as a "blind follower" until you have come to understand me by my post history.

Like all of us, I am doing my level best here, for the best interest of all beings.

Yep. What do you think red cell was really about? Richard marcinko talk about how red cell tested security as a cover but also were secretly dispatched to parts unknown to assassinate. Red cell was made up of seals and one recon Marine e at the times

reply to post by wildtimes


If I make a general statement about the whole of political thought you don't have to take it personally, and I didn't say that you held blind allegiance. I did, however, point out that you associated the demonization of ideas with Republicans, which is an unfair assessment. This does not constitute blind allegiance, but it is indicative of loyal opposition to the Republicans. I'm arguing that opposition to the people that we disagree with politically should be of secondary importance if we really want to change anything, because one of the root problems with our system is that the parties do not represent the people in the way that the people think they do. The Democrats actively work against civil rights, and the Republicans actively support larger and more intrusive government. In both cases they say one thing and do another, and people elect and re-elect them based on their promises instead of their actions. If the voters who identify with either party would actually look at who they are voting for, and assess their actions instead of their rhetoric, they would stop supporting them.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


Sorry, haven't heard of 'red cell'. Can you provide more info, please?