The Faith of Uncertainty.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


The way I always think of this situation is; we can live simply and like animals for millions of years, and this has been the case for millions of years, but if there is potential to do more, know more, explore more, build more, see more, think more, why not.

Its like the people who think the greatest value is just to be. I have no problem with this, we see this behavior by monks, and they could live a fulfilling simple life of enjoyment and appreciation for their existence. This is what animals do, this is what trees do, this is what rocks do. But over many thousands of years we humans, have evolved the ability to be and do more then this, as far as we know we are one of the most advanced and sophisticated and subtle forces of nature, and we are for the most part in control of what we make and do. So yes we could live simply for millions and millions of years, in our huts, routines over and over, appreciate the land, or we can do all that, as well as try to explore this reality more deeply and progress and advance ourselves and understanding.

It is a tough situation, once we are in control of science to the extent we can completely change ourselves. Compared to cavemen we have already completely changed ourselves and the way we live, and this had all been thanks to our knowledge of science, our understanding of materials and potentials. Some times I think it would have been interesting or fun living thousands of years ago in a small tribe village in the woods, but I also think its awesome to live in a technologically advanced and sophisticated global village, where I have so much options and potentials, and way of fulfilling my creativity and experiencing novel and various experiences a caveman couldnt dream of. Is there an end to the potential of progression, what will we make and why, what is important to ourselves? OP, I think I understand where you may have been coming from; there may not be a strict route or absolute blueprint of human history and potential in regards to our future, humans may exist for billions of years to come, and think how much we have advanced in the last 100 or 10... So it is in a sense entirely up to us, to create the absolute truths that will become the reality of our future.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I'm not sure it is the seeking that should be overcome, since questing to overcome this seeking is also seeking, and seeking unity is also seeking. It would probably be best to continue seeking, but seek differently and for different things.

Just to throw in another perspective, the mind will always remain restless while it is operating at this level of consciousness. Realization of unity offers temporary reprieve and a measure of peace, but this is not the mind's natural state or "home". The mind originates from the Causal realm (Plato's forms reside there), and until it realises unity at that level of consciousness, it will remain essentially dissatisfied, and keep seeking for that union which cannot be found in normal conscious states of awareness.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Yes, the fact of our existence is a certainty and therefore a truth. How remarkable! That what is probable is actual, even in the midst of a domain of limitless possibility which could have included the possibility of there being nothing at all, but there's not nothing, and there is nothing that is not.

According to Rene Descartes, a renowned rationalist, we each can only prove that we ourselves exist, and even then, we can only prove it to ourselves. As a result, we really cannot be certain. Not objectively. A perfect example of faith of uncertainty.

Yet another reason that I firmly believe that even if we are assigned some divine purpose, it does not define who we choose to be or who we choose to become. We make our own reason for living. Hence my signature.

From what I can tell the divine purpose isn't pre-ordained, but instead is playfully creative, with life posing the question to us of - what do you want to do now that you're here?

It presents to us a domain of liberation and new possibility, or the possibility to really live, even to the full and to overflowing, and that, in my books is a very very generous offer and one that we're wise to engage and embrace rather than to run away from while shirking the responsibility to really live and to be our truest and fullest self.

There's no need in the face of this "invitation" to declare one's own independence from it, because by it's very nature, it's free.

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


All I know is that we are all given approximately 75 years years on this earth to figure it all out, and I am going to give it everything I got to understand the madness.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

From what I can tell the divine purpose isn't pre-ordained, but instead is playfully creative, with life posing the question to us of - what do you want to do now that you're here?

It presents to us a domain of liberation and new possibility, or the possibility to really live, even to the full and to overflowing, and that, in my books is a very very generous offer and one that we're wise to engage and embrace rather than to run away from while shirking the responsibility to really live and to be our truest and fullest self.

This aligns with mystic cosmological traditions.

When the soul made its first appearance in this world, it contained within it kinetic energy in the form of desire. This desire propelled it to experience the width and breadth of life on Earth through numerous incarnations, and in the earlier times, before there was too much accumulation of negative karma, this was apparently a great deal of fun.

Now skipping forward immeasurable lifetimes, this original desire is more or less exhausted, so the allure of endless experience has dissipated to a greater or lesser degree. Those souls who have had enough, are now seeking a way out of this playground, whereas those who are not yet sated, are keen to remain here for some time yet.

It is really much more complicated than that, but what I wanted to say with this is that there is room for both views - the desire to rise above experience, and the desire to bathe in it - as these states reflect the degree of kinetic desire remaining within the soul.

reply to post by mysticnoon

Interesting, you and I are like minded kindred spirits.

According to the sliver of a moon at my birth, I'm at the end of my cycle, but you know something, if I could I would willingly stick around here, as long as it takes because I love this world and it's people, myself included!

There is great humor I intuit in the decision of the Bodhisattva who even when at the threshold of nirvana and the dissolution of the self in eternal bliss and happiness, chooses willingly to continually reincarnate right here of all places until all reach enlightenment. Ironically, that willingness is probably the very point of liberation by which the choice becomes a choice, you see..

Suffering, for the sake of love and life? Bring it on, it's not that big of a deal.

Whereas the one who wishes to escape, that's a youngling in their journey, who's need for dissolution and disappearance, for all the wrong reasons, is sure to be met with many more lifetimes, by compulsion, or the desire to seek release and liberation.

So it's funny and there's a great joke to be had here somewhere, help me find it. Thank you.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Suffering, for the sake of love and life? Bring it on, it's not that big of a deal.

Be careful what you wish for. I have a strong suspicion that I made a very similar bold and rash claim the last time around....

So it's funny and there's a great joke to be had here somewhere, help me find it. Thank you.

The joke is usually on us, and I think when we really "get it", there will be spontaneous and unbounded laughter.

Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Suffering, for the sake of love and life? Bring it on, it's not that big of a deal.

Be careful what you wish for. I have a strong suspicion that I made a very similar bold and rash claim the last time around....

That's rather amuzing in and of itself. Do you regret your life?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
That's rather amuzing in and of itself. Do you regret your life?

I don't wish to derail this thread with personal stuff, but to answer your question, no, I do not regret my life, as I would not be who I am today without it, but I do believe I overestimated myself and my ability to cope with equinamity in the face of what life threw at me. When one loses one's balance, one's decisions are not always the wisest.

reply to post by mysticnoon

It could be back on topic if the "faith of uncertainty" is absolutely humorous. Sounds like you came through ok and in hindsight, did not lose your sense of humor and personal charm, so you succeeded then, but at some point we do need to enter into a new domain of enjoyment and happiness, preferably in this life, on the other side of all the sorrow and suffering and strife, so while it might not have been funny at first, it's funny at last.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


with what I said however in my last reply I do sort of believe in a plato realm of forms of sorts; Because the universe is made of exactly what it is made of, and the laws of physics are exactly what they are, there are limits on what can exist, whether or not humans make all possibly makeable things on earth and out of earth, even though those potentials dont physically exist, and will not ever, I think in some sense they still exist. Hmmm, I think you touched upon this when you said in some other realm or time we will be doing things we cant imagine now. Before the television existed or was even imaginable, the existence of the television was still possible and a potential, the universes nature allows the television to exist, so if humans never figured out the television, imagined or thought of it, would it still be 'a thing'? I dont full heartedly agree with what im saying, but I think there is something to it, take this analogy for example. A video game designer creates a realm, and the video game takes place on hardware and software, these are restrictions, there is a storyline allthough bouts of freedom, the player has limitations, before he starts there will be things the player can never acomplish in the game, and things that are allowable, the things that are allowable in some essence exist out of the nature of the establishment of the game.

If you had 1000 incarnations on this planet would you ever desiree to spend any existing as an animal? many? what about a woman?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NorEaster

 

It's worth noting that such practices can (and often do) assist in developing critical thinking skills.

edit on 12-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Resistance does build muscle - to a point. It's important to know when to such resistance has ceased to be productive. Weight training is productive. Being crushed by weight isn't.

reply to post by NorEaster

Resistance does build muscle - to a point. It's important to know when to such resistance has ceased to be productive. Weight training is productive. Being crushed by weight isn't.

One does not grow by worrying. One grows by taking chances.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by bb23108

 

The whole being is already in union with all arising, with Reality Itself, but we have apparently and experientially separated ourselves from this inherent condition of Reality, and so constantly seek everywhere and all the time, ultimately to find this unity that is already the case!

Since it is already the case, should we not allow this seeking you speak of to remain as something that is also already the case?

Yes. Seeking will happen until it doesn't - there is nothing wrong about it, it is the game oneness plays with itself. Hide and seek - oneness hides and then seeks itself - when it finds it stops seeking.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Yes. Seeking will happen until it doesn't - there is nothing wrong about it, it is the game oneness plays with itself. Hide and seek - oneness hides and then seeks itself - when it finds it stops seeking.

There is also nothing wrong with constantly clenching one's fist, except that it hurts!

Our constant seeking is wrong in the sense that it is based on the illusory or false premise of a separate ego-I, and given this wrong premise is assumed world-wide, we en masse have created a very screwed up world. The signs of the times certainly point to our getting it wrong so far.

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Yes. Seeking will happen until it doesn't - there is nothing wrong about it, it is the game oneness plays with itself. Hide and seek - oneness hides and then seeks itself - when it finds it stops seeking.

There is also nothing wrong with constantly clenching one's fist, except that it hurts!

Our constant seeking is wrong in the sense that it is based on the illusory or false premise of a separate ego-I, and given this wrong premise is assumed world-wide, we en masse have created a very screwed up world. The signs of the times certainly point to our getting it wrong so far.

There's nothing right with it or wrong with it - it is what happens. Apparent separation is a painful, uncomfortable condition but what can be done? Oneness is realized when it is. Hearing about it might help but if one is seeking (and enjoys the chase) then one will cover ones eyes so it can carry on hiding..

reply to post by Itisnowagain
But are you also saying that the mess we have created in the world is fine?

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

But are you also saying that the mess we have created in the world is fine?

If there is a desire for something other then that is seeking something other than what is.
Who says it is wrong?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

But are you also saying that the mess we have created in the world is fine?

If there is a desire for something other then that is seeking something other than what is.
Who says it is wrong?

This is one of the problems I have with various new-age versions of non-dualism. It tends to be abstracted from the emotional/physical dimension of life and becomes the basis for various amoral statements that it is all okay as is.

It is not okay as is - people are suffering greatly, being murdered daily, en masse we are screwing up the world with our constant drive toward consumer-based happiness, etc., etc.

Regardless of how much one thinks they can simply observe and marvel indifferently at all arising, it is not altogether true realization if it is abstracted from the body and the world, and therefore separative.

When such understanding of our inherent Unity ecstatically moves through the whole body-mind, then one is spontaneously moved to make a real difference, because such an awakening if true, is full of whole-bodily love of all. I am not prescribing some search or technique for what one does, but certainly we should be able to recognize that the world as is, is not just fine.

reply to post by bb23108


Are you seeking utopia? How are you going to change the world?