Scottish and Irish Rites vs. Prince Hall?

To all those that are one,
or those that know,
what is the public explanation for the fact that a black man is not allowed to be admitted into the scottish or irish rites and instead has been given their own sect, Prince Hall rite, in which to be contented with?

what is withheld from their rite?

why the racial division if enlightenment is key.

what truth makes the racial divide relevant in this case?

i do not believe freemasons are fools, on the whole, by any means.

what is it that would perpetuate this?

Freemasonry doesn't attempt to educate the masses, it is a method of controlling them through their own beliefs.
If you have a lodge in racist area, then allowing blacks to join would lead to white people in the lodge getting upset and not wanting to do what you tell them.
Likewise with Christian only lodges for areas where there is religious intollerance.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Freemasonry doesn't attempt to educate the masses, it is a method of controlling them through their own beliefs.
If you have a lodge in racist area, then allowing blacks to join would lead to white people in the lodge getting upset and not wanting to do what you tell them.
Likewise with Christian only lodges for areas where there is religious intollerance.

ROFL.

If there are racists ANYWHERE, then they would be upset in the presence of blacks. Goes for Masons, doctors, lawyers, teachers, clerks, computer programmers, etc.

Oh, yes, and Horatio Nelson was "controlled", and so was the Duke of Wellington. Oh, and so was Dr. and Rev. Norman Vincent Peale, lol, all mindless zombies. I suppose when I, too, will enjoy great success in life, I'll also be a mindless zombie.

If Masons are zombies, then I've never met a more rational, astute, well-spoken, successful, HIGHLY EDUCATED, and downright easy-going group of zombies.

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION

what is the public explanation for the fact that a black man is not allowed to be admitted into the scottish or irish rites and instead has been given their own sect, Prince Hall rite, in which to be contented with?

I am not entirely sure of where you found out this flagrant lie about Freemasonry as a whole, but it could really not be any further from the truth.

Prince Hall masonry is open to non black males, in exactly the same way that all masonry is open to all men whatever their colour or creed.

The rest of your questions are immediately left redundant as the very premise of your post is factually incorrect.

This is my second post here at ATS, and I'm already thinking this may not be the place for me with the likes of MrNecros and his seemingly unending series of lies, deliberate misinterpretation or misrepresentation.

Christ on a bike this annoys me.

Merkin

Originally posted by Merkin
]I am not entirely sure of where you found out this flagrant lie about Freemasonry as a whole, but it could really not be any further from the truth.

Prince Hall masonry is open to non black males, in exactly the same way that all masonry is open to all men whatever their colour or creed.

The rest of your questions are immediately left redundant as the very premise of your post is factually incorrect.

This is my second post here at ATS, and I'm already thinking this may not be the place for me with the likes of MrNecros and his seemingly unending series of lies, deliberate misinterpretation or misrepresentation.

Christ on a bike this annoys me.

Merkin

Oh, vaunted toupee of the nether region, I salute your arrival to ATS, and I laud your prescience in ferreting out the misanthropic tendencies of MrNECROS. You will do well here.

Welcome to ATS, and yes, this is the place for you.

Huzar and thank you for your kind words! Worry not my well wishing friend, I will not let any profane cowans (in every sense of the words) send me running to the west!

I'll be sticking around I fear!

Merk

I am in an F & AM Lodge, and not a Prince Hall Lodge, and we have a black member in my lodge,... an African born, french speaking man who was the Worshipful Master of a recognized French speaking Lodge in Washington DC.

There is nothing preventing a black man from joining a "regular" lodge, nor is there an obstruction to a white man joining a Prince Hall Lodge.

The problem arises as "back in the day", many Brothers who were otherwise great and upstanding men could not get past the racial issue,... So Prince Hall began to spread Masonry among Black men and develop a Grand Lodge which oversaw those lodges. In most jurisdictions, Prince Hall Lodges are recognized Lodges and visitation is permitted between F & AM Masons and Prince Hall Masons... To my knowledge (I may be wrong) Prince Hall Lodges do not permit duel membership in non-Prince Hall Lodges, and so a Prince Hall Mason would have to demit from his Lodge to join an F & AM Lodge... Too much hassel for most men...

Things are changing though. I predict in the next ten years Prince Hall Masons will be able to have duel membership in most jurisdictions in F & AM Lodges, and vice versa. There is already frequent visitation between F & AM Lodges and Prince Hall Lodges. The differences in ceremony and ritual are a great topic of convesation between the brothers, and helps build lasting friendships...

The issue is certainly NOT a racial one these days, but an administrative one.

No, but it sure is a misconception that has been adequately (and more than adequately) debunked, but the spiteful hatemongers will continue to gnaw on any bone, no matter how little remains of it, in a pathetic attempt to create divisiveness...

the Chaplain in the lodge where I was raised is Col. DuBois, a black French-Hatian born black man, and no one in the lodge considers it odd. I know several white men that are members of the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of California, Inc. (which, by the way, my grand lodge recognizes as regular).

MrNecros alternately claims to be in the UK or Taiwan, which makes his comments about Prince Hall Lodges, which are an AMERICAN tradition dating back to the 1770's, extremely... interesting. Irrelevant, to be sure, and incorrect, to be certain, but definately interesting.

lol, merkin...

i apologize milady, there was nothing intentionally flagrant whatsoever in my post!

i asked a question based on what i had learned...

OBVIOUSLY!!!!!, i didnt intentionally state my assertions as FACT, because I asked QUESTIONS!!!!!

MELODRAMA is so UNECESSARY and pompous!

if i knew the answers, why did i end senteces with "?"

think, my friend,
i was asking questions....

you gave no answer to them...'

why waste our time(and yours) with tantrums?

i made a mistake in my wording, forgive me.... but calm down...

[edit on 11/5/2004 by theBLESSINGofVISION]

oh, by the way...

im not a mason....

my ignorance on the subject must be implied...

Not a mason myself...have been going to a lodge for 6 months and have turned in my app...have heard from several brothers here in SF that some lodges in the South will still not sit with or recognize Prince Hall masons...It seems that Theron is from southern CA so does anyone here have direct experience of masonic relations in the Southern Jurisdiction? I went to school in North Carolina and was pleasantly surprised with Chapel Hill area, but out in rural areas many folks still cling to old ideas about race and religion.

Please correct me if I am wrong. and i mean that.

as i recall the OLD requirements have not been changed and still require
a candidate be amoungst other things,
" A Free man Born of a Free Mother (also note that linage is established on matrilinear not patrilinear lines). I have read that this provision is and has been
under discussion for some time and at the last vote was retained by a very narrow margin. It is also my understanding that it could be enforced and retained by individual GLs while not being condoned or accepted by others.
Is This Correct?

again As I recall Prince Hall Lodges were first formed during the Revolution, and
played a large role in the War between the States ( which really had little to do with the issue of slavery).

There is also an OLD requirement that i have seen that says a candidate
must have all his limbs. as far as I know this is no longer Practiced but it is
"there".


as with many things there are many things that have changed or are no longer actively practiced. they are however "THERE" to be dredged up by
people and used as anti... propaganda simply because they are still "THERE".


MM, you had me ROFLMAO with this

Oh, vaunted toupee of the nether region

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Truly, and I am ashamed to admit that there are still a FEW lodges that do not recognize prince hall masons, but in most of those lodge, they do have black members. this is not to mitigate the issue... but there ARE other issues than just race involved in this, though, to be frank, that is these days, the primary issue.

Just to give an insight into a part of this, many of the remaining Prince Hall lodges are unwilling to ask the primary grand lodge in their state to recognize them, and some, few, really DON'T want recognition. This sounds silly, but in reality, Prince Hall lodges have their own culture, they are masons in every sense of the word, but some fear that closer ties with "mainstream" grand lodges will spell the end of Prince hall masonry, as they brothers there drop their memberships and simply affiliate with a "mainstream" grand lodge.

Even here in California, the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of California Inc (MWPHGLC from now on) insisted that members of the Grand Lodge of California (GLOC) could not simply affiliate with MWPHGLC, and vice versa. For a MWPHGLC brother to join or affiliate with a GLOC lodge, they insisted the brother would have to drop his MWPHGLC membership, then petition the GLOC to accept him as a new brother, and go through the degrees again.

So there is a little on both sides, though I will freely admit that the 13 or so southern states that do not recognize PH lodges YET are moving in that direction. But, black men, yellow men, red men can petition and join any lodge now, and are welcomed in them.

Thanks TD.

I do try tokeep up on things. much I have learned in the world of computers
applies to every day life, the biggest being " what was true yesterday is not
necessarily true today and will change by tomorrow."

Thanks for replying Theron...I agree that any good man regardless of skin color would probably be accepted into the lodge I am petitioning...The lodge I have been attending is actually a splinter off the original SF lodge...I believe the Orginial lodge was called "occidental"...the splinter lodge took up the name "Oriental" to indicate their opposition to the "Occidental" lodge supporting slavery (this was all circa 1860s)...Anyway, one of the driving forces behind my desire to become a Mason is my belief that we are all equally invested with the light of our creator...It gives me pause to see some in the craft who attend lodge, read & study and act the part of a mason...yet continue to cling to antiquated notions of race & the superiority of the Christian faith...Many of the older men in my lodge defy the ban on political/religious discussion with topics like "WE NEED TO NUKE THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST AND KILL EVERY VICIOUS ISLAMIST"...How do master masons get raised when they have such convictions? the brotherhood of mankind is fundamental to my understanding of masonry. If this was limited to one or two brothers I could readlily overlook the hypocrisy...but an anti-Islamic(they're all terrorists) stance seems endemic to the older generation in my lodge...AND THIS IS IN SAN FRANCISCO!! Anyone with experiences from the heartland?

Originally posted by jonnygemini
Not a mason myself...have been going to a lodge for 6 months and have turned in my app...have heard from several brothers here in SF that some lodges in the South will still not sit with or recognize Prince Hall masons...It seems that Theron is from southern CA so does anyone here have direct experience of masonic relations in the Southern Jurisdiction? I went to school in North Carolina and was pleasantly surprised with Chapel Hill area, but out in rural areas many folks still cling to old ideas about race and religion.

Brethren in my Jurisdiction may not sit in an open Lodge with a Prince Hall Mason. However, this is due to recognition, not race. For example, a white Prince Hall Mason could not attend my Lodge, but a black "mainstream" Mason would be welcomed.

The reason for this (whether right or wrong) is the issue of sovereignty, i.e., my Grand Lodge refuses to recognize another Grand Lodge that exists within its own Jurisdiction. For the record, Prince Hall Masonry is regular in all other senses, excluding the issue of territorial sovereignty only.

Fiat Lvx.

jg, sounds like the Lodge might need a visit from the Grand Lodge, but let's clarify something first, you are not a Mason (not a bad thing, all of us weren�t at some time or another), so you would be unaware of the discussions of the Lodge (Oriental Lodge #144 if I am correct) while at Labor. Political or religious discussion by Masons outside of Lodge is not prohibited, but is generally seen as a potential disruption to the peace and harmony of the same. In a small circle of Brothers, it may be common; in a large group, with guests, I would be the first to stand up and remind all in the kindest and gentlest manner of the Tenets upon which we all meet and agree. Judge no Lodge by any one member, we still have our blowhards, and our fossils who fail to open themselves to the Light of understanding prevalent today. Time heals all things�

I have heard that there are some fundamental differences between Prince Hall Masonry and "mainstream" Masonry in regard to ritual. That would explain the requirement Theron spoke of about taking the degrees a second time. Do any of you know if this is true? Are the rituals so different?

Are Prince Hall Masons allowed to join the various appendant bodies or are they not recognized at all? Do they have their own appendant bodies? What about the Shrine?


[edit on 11/5/04 by The Axeman]

Actually, being as my grand lodge recognizes the MWPHGLOCI, I have been privledged to sit in open lodge with my PH brothers... and their ritual, after two hundred plus years of separation, is VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to my ritual...

Oh, there ARE differences, which for obvious reasons I won't go into in this forum, but they are SO MINOR as to be nothing. These men could come to my lodge and sit any chair and work with us with no change.

No, the reason the MWPHGLOCI insisted on the demit from one and petition the other AND go through the ritual again was to satisfy self preservation... if a man could simply petition a local (perhaps more convenient lodge). that over time PH would lose its...identity, and become subsumed by the GLOC.

At least, that is what I have been given to understand... and it makes sense, sort of.