No more Allah Hu Akbar.. Go on ********

reply to post by luciddream

Just because there is 1 billion or rather 3-4 billion, who believes something that don't make them right. 2000 yrs of religion produces people that are unable to think outside the religious box, any conversation they get into is someone connected to god, consciously or subconsciously.

I usually do try and avoid these threads in any depth...but this is getting interesting. You are right... The sheer numbers don't, by itself, make an opinion or belief correct. Conversely though, the same can be said of the opposing side and again, therein lay the problem. The Faithful and the Faithless both have solid arguments and solid reasoning, from their own perspective. Matters of God and Faith in general have been argued for as long as Man as had written record to record it ..and I'm sure, will continue to be until our Sun goes Super-Nova someday and just torches us all right out of existence in a nano-second.


In terms of God infiltrating countries... I sure hope you don't mean America. After all, that "Bestowed by our Creator" is among the words in the very founding documents of this nation. It cannot infiltrate what was based directly upon it. (Tho I know that fact just burns some people up like a cooked bun)

The catch, of course, is that in America, that does extend to ANY specific Faith OR someone to have no Faith at all. All is fair and free in that area, on both sides, and to whatever extent an individual chooses.

To the extent it's within our laws? Again, that is as it's been since the earliest days of mere consideration to telling King George he could stick it in his pointy ear......along with the Church of England (which was much of the basis to the 1st Amendment Religion clause ...Never again, a state religion)

reply to post by heineken

keep in mind your religion is based on that fact..that Jesus the son of god came here...

if you cant give me an answer what the hack are you doing here defending religion??

Ouch... That is your first MAJOR mistake of the thread. I hadn't expected it, honestly...so please don't think I was setting any sort of trap as your "3 choices" would set for me.

"your religion" is assuming I am Christian. It would at least assume I am a follower 'Of the Book', to be one of the primary world Faiths. I am neither. I'm Wiccan, to be precise in the matter. That actually means I have no dog in this hunt either way for the recorded life of Jesus Christ any more than I have personal capital invested in the recorded life of the Prophet Muhammad. I respect both faiths and given their similarities and shared belief in specific people, places and events, I have more than a passing interest in how and why over 2 billion follow them Faithfully.

However, I'm not among either...and that is a bad assumption to ever make about people in a debate like this. In terms of defending religion? I'd mentioned I am a member of a minority Faith, and so I tend to be more sensitive to the persecution of Faith and the concept of having it than many are. Did you think I meant Christianity as a 'minority Faith'? lol....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Oh not just America.. Canada, UK, and many other countries have "god" in their anthems or pledges and other government/country based things.

I personally think its silly to include it.

America being founded on a religious foundation is highly debatable, as well as integration of "god" came much much later, i think in mid 1900s.

When an Atheist becomes a president in America, maybe it would be different but i highly doubt a person who says he is an Atheist can become a president in our current era.

imagine the headlines "President Atheist orders a drone strike, was he able to make this choice easily because he does not believe in higher power?"

Now Australia on the other hand ..

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by heineken

 

keep in mind your religion is based on that fact..that Jesus the son of god came here...

if you cant give me an answer what the hack are you doing here defending religion??

Ouch... That is your first MAJOR mistake of the thread. I hadn't expected it, honestly...so please don't think I was setting any sort of trap as your "3 choices" would set for me.

"your religion" is assuming I am Christian. It would at least assume I am a follower 'Of the Book', to be one of the primary world Faiths. I am neither. I'm Wiccan, to be precise in the matter. That actually means I have no dog in this hunt either way for the recorded life of Jesus Christ any more than I have personal capital invested in the recorded life of the Prophet Muhammad. I respect both faiths and given their similarities and shared belief in specific people, places and events, I have more than a passing interest in how and why over 2 billion follow them Faithfully.

However, I'm not among either...and that is a bad assumption to ever make about people in a debate like this. In terms of defending religion? I'd mentioned I am a member of a minority Faith, and so I tend to be more sensitive to the persecution of Faith and the concept of having it than many are. Did you think I meant Christianity as a 'minority Faith'? lol....

apologies for the christian thing

but...you said.." I respect both faiths and given their similarities and shared belief in specific people, places and events,"

that is your primary mistake..you have to enlighten them because they are keeping humanity from evolving...without religion most of the wars will cease..people will unite..more money will be devoted to scientific and medical research...we will reach the stars

but if you keep on respecting we will not evolve in our lifetime and that sucks...im only here once..and i want that if humanity reach other stars I am alive to experience it

and dont think for an instance that we cannot reach the stars..onl;y funds and wars are keeping us away from doing it..the technology is there..no science fiction..the technology is already here

reply to post by heineken

that is your primary mistake..you have to enlighten them because they are keeping humanity from evolving...without religion most of the wars will cease..people will unite..more money will be devoted to scientific and medical research...we will reach the stars

but if you keep on respecting we will not evolve in our lifetime and that sucks...im only here once..and i want that if humanity reach other stars I am alive to experience it

Well, your belief that Faith is a hindrance to evolution is just that, a belief. It's one I respect as much as I do those who follow the World Faiths. I don't agree with your belief, as is obvious and to say the least. lol... I respect it though, which is why I joined into the debate here. It's interesting to explore some topics and get a feel for the deeper reasoning, when I run across people who are able to voice it without personal attacks. That's refreshing ..and seems hard to find some days around the net.

Evolution of anything as broad as human thought or society across a single lifetime is a goal worthy of pursuing, but I believe, needs to be tempered with the knowledge that it's only progress, at best, which will ever come by the end of such a short time. Fast and forced evolution comes with extreme brutality and rarely ever holds for any length of time. Lasting and meaningful evolution of thought and mindset comes over time as people come to it on their own ...never forced. That's where the usually peaceful will rebel against concepts they might otherwise agree with ..and do so with deadly force, all to often. History shows that in rivers of bloody pages.

* I'm not sure where you mean on the space travel side of things..... The only reason we aren't in space is because we aren't taking it seriously. The Pentagon spends over 600 billion dollars a year, even now, to kill people and support the system which makes ever new ways of doing so. NASA, by contrast, operates a budget under 20 billion for everything from Voyager I and II monitoring, to the GOES Satellite program to outreach and education efforts. How can we get there when no one will pay the ticket?

reply to post by luciddream

America being founded on a religious foundation is highly debatable, as well as integration of "god" came much much later, i think in mid 1900s.

I would have thought the preamble to the Constitution itself ...written in the 18th Century as it was, removed the "highly debatable" from the issue entirely. Whether they meant Christian as a specific area of Faith or Christian values as noble enough to base things on, without the specifics of discipline within a sect, is debatable. The Constitution is but one of several documents and groups of papers anyone serious about understanding things needs to read and take in.

As I know history to be, the founding fathers were of multiple Faiths in their own personal lives, but united on the idea that Faith in some form, at some level, need play a role in the founding of a Just and lasting nation.

That concept has seen our nation right into the present day ...with mixed results, I admit, but still standing. At least until now. The future is never certain, and less so as each day passes right now.

reply to post by heineken


Right....because religion is to blame for all wars in the Middle East.

You are severely misguided....and I am not religious in the slightest sense.

You really shouldn't paint such broad strokes. Also, presenting speculation and opinions as absolute facts really does not do too much for you....just saying.

Eh, I'm an atheist, but I'm also quite sick of religions getting the blame for political issues. It seems to be an easy way for people ignorant of politics to wipe their hands of an issue.

Trouble in Burma? Religion. Conflict between Israel and Palestine? Religion. Troubles between Ireland and England? Religion.

I'm not one to pass up on an opportunity to put the boot into religion, I'm really not, but I don't like this increasing Western trend of blaming often western created problems on religious fundamentalism. Religion plays apart, but for the most part these conflicts exist in spite of religion.

There's so much going on in that part of the world and it's western foreign policy and economic imperialism that is at the heart of a lot of it. But these young atheists knocking about are too uneducated and want to boil absolutely everything down to religion. They're fresh out of high school and haven't learned to think yet, and I know because I was the biggest anti-theist asshole on the face of the earth when I was a teen too.

"it's religion" is the conclusion drawn by stupid people who can't think straight. Confusing correlation and causation as usual.

In terms of God infiltrating countries... I sure hope you don't mean America. After all, that "Bestowed by our Creator" is among the words in the very founding documents of this nation. It cannot infiltrate what was based directly upon it. (Tho I know that fact just burns some people up like a cooked bun)

Sorry, I have to get a bit technical on this issue. Actually, it was the case here in the good old USA. The founding fathers were not the indigenous people, and did take over this land, so wouldn't that be a form of infiltrating?


BTW, OP, haven't noticed you here for a while, very glad your "visible" again!

reply to post by heineken

without religion most of the wars will cease..people will unite..more money will be devoted to scientific and medical research...we will reach the stars.

That is quite a bold and unprovable statement.

We fight each other because we are humans and we desire land, raw materials, and power. It is because of evolution that we fight, it has always been a game of survival of the fittest.

Religion, while based in ignorance and naivety, is far from being the primary motivator in human conflict. If anything it is simply used as a tool by leaders in theocracies to convince their people to commit violent acts in pursuit of some tangible value (again, land, resources, political power).

Even without some form of sensationalistic, dogmatic, ritual system we would still fight each other. We do it all the time, most nations in this world are not dominions of religious idolatry, they are in fact secular governments which consist of a number of individuals with varying belief systems. Sure the Arab nations are pretty much theocracies, but they are also not the only nations causing harm out thee in the big bad world.

Religion will never go away. It is a hydra born from the part of the human brain that speculates and fears uncertainty. War will never go away either, it is also a part of our nature.

Originally posted by flice
The worst part of your thread is that you assume that it's the "religious fanatics" who are to blame for the middle eastern mess...

In reality the ones to blame is the US and it's ever imperialist nature and then it's little brother Israel who continue to wave their apartheid flag and warfilled rethoric.

But as a fellow atheist I 100% agree with you on how we should be spending our resources and money.

Though I agree the U.S. should never have stuck its nose in the Middle East, I find your reasoning flawed. The U.S. has meddled in Britain, Russia, Japan... you name the country and the U.S. has probably had its grubby fingers in it. No riots in these places. Well, none that I'm aware of.

reply to post by heineken

Doesn't it seem curious that every video has the videographer restating that over and over? By now I am sure most people have caught on that is what they are told to do while filming. Its supposed to convey to us that all of Islam is a bunch of radical extremists. So therefore its okay to wipe them out and take their stuff.

See thru the veil. These "rebels" with a YouTube account are not religious, they are criminals or at least outside agencies trained in guerrilla warfare and unleashed inside Syria to wreak havoc and make you think they are Muslim. Every time they shout All Snackbar, dismiss it as the propaganda it is.

reply to post by heineken


there is so much retardation and uninformed in your thread.
First of all genius this is NOT a religious war, it has always been about trade routes which truth be told WAS STOLEN from syria. Second, syria has not been proven to be making chemical weapons or nuclear weapons Russia checked which in turned they've warned usa not to bomb syria. Second the jews have been bombing Syrians and rhaping /killing many of their women and killing men for no reason. And the jews have americas back completely which is why america is also bombing syria/pakistan/etc, Third America is the continued roman empire, it always was, why do you think everything they teach all their laws almost everything has roman origins? duh fourth, You thinks this is a small war? that they'll just kill each other and the rest of the world will continue as if nothing? NO these so called religious wars as you say, if an all out war breaks out as you want, will be followed by a third world war. these 2 countries believe it or not have ALOT of influence worldwide. Many like Russia,China(secretely), North Korea(by default), etc are on Syrias side, While the USA, Japan, and possibly some EU countries(by default) are on israels side, when these main countries collide all the others would follow picking sides.

Stop being so damn ignorant, war is never a good thing, war never changes, deaths on all side, lone family members on all sides, corruption on both side, and this time nuclear powers on both sides! Educate yourself!

It's a not-so-subliminal form of inculcation. Repeating that idiotic phrase ad nauseum ingrains these Neanderthals with the ideals of their bellicose dogma- sanctioned slaughter, utopic rewards for martyrdom, a belief their cause is thee just one, et al.

It's actually ingenious in its simplicity. For the educated mind scoffs at such obviously infantile methods of indoctrination, but Islam - or any religion, for that matter - seeks not to ensnare smart people, only the disenfranchised and abjectly stupid.

Its not the religions which cause war, its the human nature. People want to control things.

And wars are way to "rearrange" money. Its the current economic system which needs war. War = profit.

Dude, EXCELLENT NEWS FOR YOU. They are now accepting passengers for a one way trip to mars, seriously.

You should sign up. Get away from all these evil people that believe in religion and be with the true force of the universe away from this insane world.

Religion is the whole problem. It has nothing to do with greed and stealing money and murdering people to attain power and wealth.

Totally logical

And barf

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


It's like the elite are sitting on a terrace and hungry dogs approche them.
They throw them a nice bone .
They all started to fight and adore the bone (God)
Religion came to live, to divide people!
Why after all this time, do we not have one language on earth?
It only takes one generation to fix it!
Everything is done to divide people: politics-religion-language-earnings-lifestyle-looks you name it!
Life is too short, enjoy it, all together, respect all life!

reply to post by truejew


And I wish I was worthy to be counted among that number but can't stand an overgrown cult that enslaved over 1 million Europeans in just over two century's www.islam-watch.org... , based around the words of a man whom married a 6 year old child and expressed an interest (2 years before he died) in a baby girl whom had just learned to crawl, and though maybe flawed in my ways I am also offended by there claim 650 years after the time of his birth that they have correct story's about Christ that do not match even the first century gospel fragments so are completely bollocks, oh Heineken (good name but Becks - if it wasn't for the footballer - is better) once they are gone which they won't be what are your intention's toward us because as I pointed out above we won't lie there and take it. WERE THERE IS AN ALTER THERE IS CIVILISATION and no atheist civilisation has ever arisen except amongst the chimps wow man look at that banana.

Unless you like the Tennessee guide stone's and think you'll enter a mythical new world with only 500,000 atheist drone's controlled by a new god emperor.

Sorry I am not pulling you down it is just that Atheists are so self righteous and I classify it as a new religion.

For those who oppose religion, religion has always been used to justify cause I think

I did wonder the other day whether dolphins or whales believed in a god system? I agree that religion often gets it in the neck for things that are human or political like wars. But religion did put man on a pedestal to be higher than all the other animals and science every day is taking man off that pedestal (whales are self aware and hence have a level of concious, pigeons are superstitious).

My other thought about religion - that the "pagan" or Celtic religions were far more in touch with humans as part of an eco system than Christianity ever was, So pagans did revere the Earth (most river and mountain names in the UK are pagan in origin) and I do wonder if the religion that won out was Celtic, that we would not have made such a mess of the Earth.