Did the recent May 2013 Israeli airstrike on Damascus result in a disproportional War Crime?

Explanation: I was stunned by the early reports of casualties coming out of Syria and as also reported by RT.

The figures ranged from 300 to 2000 dead and wounded!

Now I do agree that there was the military nessessity for Israel to do these bombing raids and so that is not the issue at hand here ok.

However, the laws of war REQUIRE such attacks to be proportional to the need!

I am of the current , possibly unfounded, opinion that it was not proportional at all ... and hence resulted in a war crime ... even if unintentionally.

Regardless of intent ... if the outcome was disproportional , and I am hoping that we at ATS can discern and determine that for ourselves, then indeed it was a War Crime.

Laws of War: Principles of the laws of war

Principles of the laws of war:

There are two principles;

Discrimination and Non Combatant Immunity:
No individual can justly be attacked unless he has, through his own action, surrendered or lost his basic human rights. However, because individuals with combatant status forfeit some of these basic rights when they become soldiers, their death can be morally justified. Civilians on the other hand have not forfeited these rights, and are never permissible targets of war. Houses, places of worship and schools should be immune from attack as well. Foreseeable threat posed to civilian lives should be reduced as far as possible and every effort should be taken to avoid killing them. However, civilian deaths are sometimes unavoidable. The term collateral damage refers to destruction unavoidably incurred in the act of destroying a target deemed to be of military significance.

Proportionality:
The principle of proportionality deals with what kind of force is morally permissible in warfare. It suggests that the injury caused should be proportional to the objective desired, and that the extent and violence of warfare must be tempered to minimize destruction and casualties.

I make absolutely no suggestions as to what should occur if that is found to be the case!

Again I reiterate ... THIS IS ABOUT DETERMINING WHETHER A WAR CRIME WAS COMMITED AND NOTHING ELSE!

By who or why matters not as far as this thread is concerned ok!

Some uncomfirmed reports from an unreliable source that I originally came across that mention possibly spurious casualtie figues ...

Note: CAUTION! Clicking on the picture below links to beforeitsnews.com ok!

I have been unable to find any accurate reports of casualties, aside from beforeitsnews.com, in the western MSM and even Syria has not yet provided any solid details as to them.

I was able to find an article on the casualties caused by Hizbollah/Syrian rockets fired into Israel that seems to break it down very methodically ...

Dissecting IDF propaganda: The numbers behind the rocket attacks (by Phan Nguyen on November 17, 2012) [mondoweiss.net]

Counting the dead

Below is a list of all the fatalities of rocket and mortar attacks fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel in the entire history of these attacks. Throughout the years of rocket attacks into Israel, a total of 26 people have been killed altogether.

Fatalities from rocket and mortar attacks in Israel from the Gaza Strip

Date of attack Name Age Location Weapon
2004.06.28 Mordechai Yosephov 49 Sderot Qassam
2004.06.28 Afik Ohion Zehavi 4 Sderot Qassam
2004.09.29 Yuval Abebeh 4 Sderot Qassam
2004.09.29 Dorit (Masarat) Benisian 2 Sderot Qassam
2005.01.15 Ayala-Haya Abukasis 17 Sderot Qassam
2005.07.15 Dana Gelkowitz 22 Moshav Nativ Ha‘asara Qassam
2006.03.28 Salam Ziadin* ? Nahal Oz Qassam‡
2006.03.28 Khalid Ziadin* 16 Nahal Oz Qassam‡
2006.11.15 Faina Slutzker 57 Sderot Qassam
2006.11.21 Yaakov Yaakobov 43 Sderot Qassam
2007.05.21 Shirel Friedman 32 Sderot Qassam
2007.05.27 Oshri Oz 36 Sderot Qassam
2008.02.27 Roni Yihye 47 Sderot Qassam
2008.05.09 Jimmy Kedoshim 48 Kibbutz Kfar Aza mortar
2008.05.12 Shuli Katz 70 Moshav Yesha Qassam
2008.06.05 Amnon Rosenberg 51 Kibbutz Nir-Oz mortar
2008.12.27 Beber Vaknin 58 Netivot Qassam
2008.12.29 Lutfi Nasraladin*† 38 IDF base near Nahal Oz mortar
2008.12.29 Irit Sheetrit 39 Ashdod Grad
2008.12.29 Hani al Mahdi* 27 Ashkelon Grad
2010.03.18 Manee Singueanphon* 30 Moshav Nativ Ha‘asara Qassam
2011.08.20 Yossi Shushan 38 Be’er sheva Grad
2011.10.29 Moshe Ami 56 Ashkelon Grad
2012.11.15 Yitzchak Amsalem 24 Kiryat Malachi rocket
2012.11.15 Mira Sharf 25 Kiryat Malachi rocket
2012.11.15 Aharon Smadja 49 Kiryat Malachi rocket
Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks
from Gaza into Israel: 26
Operation Cast Lead: December 27, 2008–January 18, 2009
Operation Pillar of Cloud: November 14, 2012–

(Refer to the bottom of the page for notes and sources.)

The shaded rows in the table refer to fatalities sustained during Operation Cast Lead (December 27, 2008–January 18, 2009) and Operation Pillar of Cloud (November 14, 2012–).

Note that of the 26 fatalities from rocket and mortar attacks, more than one out of every four deaths occurred during these two operations, which were ostensibly designed to deter rocket attacks.

IF the casualty figures from Damascus are confirmed as being in the 100's or even 1000's then was that proportional?

Personal Disclosure: I hope this contentious subject can discussed maturely by all of us!

Please remain civil and on topic! Thank you!

How many missile attacks do Israel suffer a day

How many died in the Boston bombings? Only a few, are you suggesting that doesnt really matter cos its only a few dead not scores.
Its ok to terrorise people as long as the body count is low?

Yep, its good that people are not dying there. Its better that extremist muslims are killed. Extremlist muslims hate the West.

reply to post by OmegaLogos

Just to close off the discussion of "What to do about it?", the proper body is the International Criminal Court.

As of May 2013, 122 states are states parties to the Statute of the Court, including all of South America, all of Australia, nearly all of Europe and roughly half the countries in Africa. A further 31 countries,[9] including Russia, have signed but not ratified the Rome Statute.[ The law of treaties obliges these states to refrain from “acts which would defeat the object and purpose” of the treaty until they declare they do not intend to become a party to the treaty. Three of these states—Israel, Sudan and the United States—have informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their former representatives' signature of the Statute. 41 United Nations member states have neither signed nor ratified or acceded to the Rome Statute; some of them, including China and India, are critical of the Court.

The ICC has been criticized for being contrary to the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution due to the absence of jury trials, as well as allegations that retrial is permitted for errors of fact, hearsay is accepted as evidence, and that there is no right to a speedy trial and a public trial, or reasonable bail.

en.wikipedia.org...

In short, even if they are War Crimes, there isn't the legal structure to do anything about it through the ICC. I suppose the UN as a body could impose sanctions, but that doesn't sound too terrifying.

reply to post by charles1952


You know, I wonder... Has Israel taken meaningful sanctions in modern times? As far as I know, they've had open access to and from world markets with little to no restrictions. I seriously tend to wonder about these body counts and feel the real need to ask just what the heck they hit to generate those ....if they are accurate. However, if they did kill a couple thousand people and those weren't all either military or workers in a military lab? (Hey, you pay your money, you take your chances, right?) then I'd say there does need to be some investigation.

That is a staggering number of people for a single attack. I'm not sure U.S. forces ever matched it in Iraq, did they? Even the Air raid shelter hit in the opening days, before ground forces crossed the line didn't come remotely close. That's why I really question it ..but still.. Who knows? That's the problem if evidence exists to support true suspicion. Hmmm..

The UN took jurisdiction over the blockade running 'aid' ships and the Israeli raid where people were killed on that one. They essentially cleared them of all but bad timing for lines on the map and planning which could have been better ..but still, ran an investigation. Perhaps it is needed?

reply to post by borntowatch


Explanation: Thanks for replying!

This thread is not about any wider conflict at all and merely and specifically focuses on this ONE INCIDENT!

Personal Disclosure: Now to answer your off topic questions as an act of diplomacy!

How many died in the Boston bombings?

I believe I read credible reports on ATS and MSM of innocent 3 victims killed in the recent Boston Bombing. There were many other innocent casualties!

Only a few, are you suggesting that doesnt really matter cos its only a few dead not scores.

No I am not suggesting that at all ... I am in no way trying to minimize those Israeli deaths at all ok!

Its ok to terrorise people as long as the body count is low?

The Laws of War state that is ok! It is called Collateral Damage!

I hope this helps you to focus back on the specific issue at hand ok!

reply to post by charles1952


Explanation: St*rred!

Thank you for bring that terrible set of facts to light!

What a disgusting reprehensible hypocritical situation!

Personal Disclosure: I am glad that aspect has been covered and is now out of the way and we can focus on whether this one incident was or was not a war crime!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Explanation: St*rred!

I agree such an investigation is needed and hence why I posted this thread as I have little faith in the UN doing anything of worthwhile consequence in regards to this one incident!

Personal Disclosure: However the issue of sanctions goes far beyond the basic brief of this threads focus and I encourage you and or other members to research that issues far reaching consequences broadly and deeply and possibly author a thread on ATS detailing such things.

If you happen to come across any credible casualty figues I would much appreciate you posting such data to this thread for further analysis.

Thank You!

Israel are fighting a war on terrorism
Rocket attacks on civilians in Israel in 2011
en.wikipedia.org...

Now Israel assumedly strike a possible Chem weapons storage facility that may be going to Hezbolah. Collateral damage in a strike against a military facility.
I think the numbers are a little to high myself, I just cant imagine 10 000 casualty's killed or wounded unless Syria were preparing for something bigger

The US dont receive rocket attacks daily and are constantly at war because of terrorism and many civilians are killed.

The laws of war ????????

Ok, well hang on chaps, the rule book article 56-67B says you cannot bomb us on a Tuesday or a Thursday. It cannot be during a full moon, between the hours of 3:00 and 7am nor can it be during a public holiday.



Laws of war??? Seriously, I've never heard of that before. Who came up with it? Who said if you invade to kill people and claim land you must do it this way or that way?

Oh, and Israel attacked... but I think it was Hassad that 'declared' war wasn't it?

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Uh...

Jamraya (Arabic: جمرايا‎) is a village in southern Syria. It is part of the Rif Dimashq Governorate and is located northwest of Damascus, near Al-Hamah. Other nearby localities include Ashrafiyat al-Wadi to the north and Qudsaya to the south. According to the Syria Central Bureau of Statistics, the village had a population of 1,156 in the 2004 census.

Source: Wikipedia


...unless the ENTIRE POPULATION of Jamraya was actually physically present in that weapons convoy, there is no way that the body count was anywhere NEAR what's being listed.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


I am surprised that this important thread did not receive the attention that it deserves.

These strikes most certainly were a war crime and those who are responsible should be held accountable for their actions to the fullest extent of international law.

Star and Flag

Originally posted by borntowatch
How many missile attacks do Israel suffer a day

How many died in the Boston bombings? Only a few, are you suggesting that doesnt really matter cos its only a few dead not scores.
Its ok to terrorise people as long as the body count is low?

edit on 6-5-2013 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

Israel preemptively attacks a sovereign nation twice and you try to portray them as the victim due to non related rocket attacks from Gaza and sometimes Lebanon? All I can say is wow!

That is one of the worse deflections I have ever seen and I have seen quite a few on ATS.

Regardless of body count, any terrorist act is wrong...this thread is about the war crime that Israel committed on the Syrian people not the Boston Marathon...unless I missed a memo

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Yep, its good that people are not dying there. Its better that extremist muslims are killed. Extremlist muslims hate the West.

Have you lost your humanity?

Can you factually verify that it was Islamic extremists who were killed by the Israeli air strikes? The information I have come across indicates that it was mostly the Assad regime forces and civilians that were killed by these illegal airstrikes and here you are cheering their deaths.

Israel is full of extremists too and you don't see me wishing death upon them.

I can't believe some of what I am reading

reply to post by Awen24


Explanation: Uhmmm???

9 yr old statistics provided during the current Syrian civil war! :shk:

That figure may have been valid in 2004 and it IS a good reference point [st*r for you..begrudgingly] but I dont think it holds much value aside from a recent [past decade] historical point of view.

And note that in my OP I said unreliable claimed figures ranged from 300 to 2000 and so you cherry picking the highest value and trying to discount it with just as unreliable statistics seems a bit suspicious to me!

Personal Disclosure: However I do feel you have contributed to this thread and on topic! Thank you!

Regardless of how many sources I check out it seems I cannot get a steady answer when it comes to the death toll from these Israeli strikes. The numbers are as low as 40 and the OP has already explained the high estimations as well.

In my opinion, regardless of how many deaths there were, this was still disproportional due to several reasons even though many will probably disagree.

As previously mentioned, Israel blatantly violated international law by preemtively striking Syria several times based on nothing more than unproven allegations. People will say Israel has the right to defend itself, but my question is defend itself from what? They are the only one in the region spilling violence across neighboring borders and beyond unless you want to count the extremists fighting in Syria and other places such as Gaza, Bahrain, Libya, and other parts of Northern Africa. Does Israel really want to be associated with these ruthless terrorists? Well, it's too late since they have devolved into the same category, and have done so for quite some time now.

Just imagine if Syria were to claim that they had "intel" that proves that Israel is about to strike Syria with a tactical nuclear strike, if Syria were to attack the Dimona plant and any other weapons cache that they seem fit there would be international outrage and it would have already been considered an act of war and emergency meetings at the UN would be happening for full scale war against Syria and most likely Iran and Lebanon.

I am not saying I want Syria to commit this act but I just want to put things into proper context for those who seem to believe Israel can do no wrong.

I believe if Syria were to commit this hypothetical act that I just mentioned, it would be disproportionate and would deserve to be dealt with.

Why is Israel exempt from retaliation when they are clearly the aggressor?

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by Awen24

 

Explanation: Uhmmm???

9 yr old statistics provided during the current Syrian civil war!

:shk:

That figure may have been valid in 2004 and it IS a good reference point [st*r for you..begrudgingly] but I dont think it holds much value aside from a recent [past decade] historical point of view.

And note that in my OP I said unreliable claimed figures ranged from 300 to 2000 and so you cherry picking the highest value and trying to discount it with just as unreliable statistics seems a bit suspicious to me!

Personal Disclosure: However I do feel you have contributed to this thread and on topic! Thank you!

Yes... 9 year old data because there hasn't been a census since. As a result, it's the most current information available on the population of that particular city. Now, if you like, you can assume that the population has doubled, but you still won't get the estimated 3,000 people dead.

The 300 people estimated was the number of military personnel on-site during THE DAY, which again would place it at the upper realm of probability, so even there it's a stretch.

Couple that with this:

The reported strikes killed 42 Syrian soldiers, the opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Monday, citing medical sources.

Source: CNN


...and you have a much more likely figure. 42.


Now, in terms of whether or not the attack was proportionate... there are a few things to consider.

1) this was an attack on a military facility, NOT on a civilian population

2) this attack was to pre-empt the shipment of what the IDF call "game-changing" arms to Hezbollah, a designated terrorist organisation in the majority of countries in the West (and many elsewhere also).

Others have mentioned the issue of Gaza and its rockets... while some have rebutted this, stating that it's really just a drop in an unrelated bucket - and that's a fair comment. However, the difference between firing home-made rockets over the border from Gaza (although even there, sophistication levels are increasing, thanks to Iran) and firing Fateh-110 missiles from Lebanon is huge. The potential for death and destruction is exponentially greater.

...so now the question becomes a little clearer.
If this were the US, and these missiles were being supplied to Mexico for the purposes of terrorist attacks across the border, what would you expect?

If it were the UK, and missiles were being fired from Scotland into Britain, what would you expect? Would you not expect these governments to do whatever they could to prevent those shipments from reaching their intended destination, and potentially save hundreds, even thousands of lives in your own country?

reply to post by Awen24


Explanation: St*rred!

...and you have a much more likely figure. 42.

I concur ... until further data and or credible accurate information comes to light!

Furthermore ... I have never doubted the military nessessity factor in this issue!

Personal Disclosure: I have made an alert and asked the mods to consider closing this thread until more accurate data comes to hand and recommended they award Awen24 an applause.

Until further notice I consider this thread closed and temporarily resolved in the negetive [ie NOT a War Crime] for the time being!

Well done ATS! This is how its done!



P.S. @ Corruption Exposed ... You Sir! (I st*rred all your posts to this thread Outstanding contribution IMO)

Aaaaand Israeli undercover and counterintelligence agents begin to flood this thread in 3...2...1...

Keep an eye out for members that have signed up recently with hardly any posts, and mostly posting on issues related to Israel. If you look, they're all over.

All you have to do is click on their user name, and then take a look at their post history.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Yep, its good that people are not dying there. Its better that extremist muslims are killed. Extremlist muslims hate the West.

So because someone doesn't share the same ideas as you it's okay for them to be killed?

"Oh they hate the west so it's okay to blow them up."

I swear sometimes these threads bring out the worst in the ATS community.....

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
I am surprised that this important thread did not receive the attention that it deserves.

Couldn't agree more. Star and flagger.

-SAP-