Neil DeGrasse Tyson - Best point ever made on childrens ambitions lost by parenting and testing

Excellent thread!

It's interesting that we never really think about how we educate ourselves....we just jump through irrelevant hoops for a predetermined amount of years, mandated by government regulation, and call ourselves educated.

I'm of the opinion that college is a complete wast of time for the mass majority of people. If you're going to become a doctor or a scientist of some sort, go to college. Everyone else would be better off if they went to a "trade school" and learned a specific trade that they found interesting or were talented at.

They have to clean up that egg when they break it OP. And that includes washing all the white off the floor with a wet washcloth, NOW.

It's good for kids to be kids and learn that all there is to life is not found in a book or computer. I bet I have learned fifty times that which I learned in school since I got out. I had interest in learning though which means it is easy to learn. No child left behind is a joke and even the teachers know it. The only ones that can't comprehend that are the school management and the department of education.....Notice how I didn't capitalize the name, I lost respect for them over the last five years, they are just words now.

The whole thing has got so messed up, the kids can even see the conditioning. The kids have lost interest in school, not caring if they do well. We have messed up by allowing upper government get involved so intensely in education. No child left behind...They are all behind now. Instead of fixing the schools that were broken they added inferior parts to the whole system. Talk about a bunch of busy bodies on the upper end of the education system. If I still had kids in school, I would take them out and teach them myself, the new system is an utter failure...The teachers are forced to promote something that is just a joke.

Since I got so far off topic, I better quit.....I just had to say my piece.

Good thread and some good posts added by people. Seems like most people know the system is broken. Stem their interest, don't force them to learn....It doesn't work.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by ZeuZZ

 

Whoa whoa whoa....lets discuss that line of reasoning.

A "modern society"....that is just silly. The only things that change about societies is the name of the people screwing everyone else over. And in the last 100 years (due to technology) how that screwing will commence. There is nothing particularly pious or proper about "modern society". It is full of the same blood lusts and prejudices as all societies have had.

Beyond that....my only belief is that the people entering into the arrangements should be of sound mind. But since there is no way to reasonably write a law around that....i would rather err on the side of some folks getting screwed over than to err on the side of stifling liberty and freedom.

I agree with this, my previous post came across a bit confrontational. I'm not demanded the storming of snake and oil industries, im just asking for people to advise people that may use such dubious services why they should not. Taking the position with one of your best friends that the fact she spends £200 a week for her palm reading is a waste of money shows a lot more integrity than agreeing with her beliefs that it's worth £200.

As usual, Sagan has said it a much clearer way than I have previously tried to.

I agree with Degrasse up to a certain point and I think what he said is true up to an age of 10-12. Personally I believe the real trouble resides in kids ages 12-18 and from what I observed parents having little influence on the child at that point. Culture is pretty much raising children these days. Google/iphones/youtube/facebooks/schools/peers is where children are obtaining information from because it's easier and private. If we really want to make an impact on children then I would suggest we start looking more into how culture is effecting children at same time fixing the problem with parenting.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
Excellent thread!

It's interesting that we never really think about how we educate ourselves....we just jump through irrelevant hoops for a predetermined amount of years, mandated by government regulation, and call ourselves educated.

I'm of the opinion that college is a complete wast of time for the mass majority of people. If you're going to become a doctor or a scientist of some sort, go to college. Everyone else would be better off if they went to a "trade school" and learned a specific trade that they found interesting or were talented at.

Self worth is a product of ego. Being a product of ego, it is obviously derived from within. But it is fed from without. It is these little baubles called "diplomas" and "honors" that feed this ego and determine a persons self worth.

Not that I am fully above it. I just have a fairly unique perspective given my job and my educational background. But neither omits me from ego derived feelings of self worth.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Bleeeeep

 

No, i say we stop using memorization as a teaching strategy.

If I knew WHY i needed a slope intercept formula, then it would certainly make it easier to recall.

I have a history in adult education. One of the key mantras for the adult learner is "WIIFM" or "Whats In It For Me".

I would posit that the majority of child learners past of the age of 11 are the same. Yet we ignore it and try to teach them like they have the same neuroplasticity as a 7 year old. It just isn't true.

suppose you know your making a steady income per day. January first you had $0, january 20th you had $200, this can be expressed as cash = 10*day (y = cash, m = 10, x = day slope is rise over run, or y/x $200/20 or 10 dollars per day). That way if you want to know what you have on say january 15th it's simply cash = 10*15 or 150 dollars.
I recognize that was a bit off topic, but math is a passion of mine.
As far as the topic at hand is concerned I do have something to say.
Standardized education where every person has to go through the same k-12 will lead to the stagnation of this country, or at the very least it won't encourage innovation.
More importantly than that it doesn't serve the students. I think that after the first several years of education, that learning should be custom tailored to each student. There aptitudes should be determined, and the should be taught based on that. Of course balance should be sought, and they should be instructed in things the have little aptitude, but the focus should be on the things they have a talent for.

However!, this aptitude can not be determined by a standardized tests. Humans are more dynamic than standardized tests. We are not "linear" systems. I understand that when you are relying on the skill of individual teachers and educators to determine the future of you child, there is a fear the mistakes can be made, but certainly we can all see the mistakes that are made with standardized testing, and expectations.

How often are children taught that everyone is different, no two are alike, celebrate difference. Right? Then along comes big gov, and shoves them into a canned classroom, with canned teachers, and canned exams, and then holds all of them up to a bright light, and expects to see the same thing from all of them.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


My mistake, I projected because I assumed that you had thought it out more. You're not exactly saying memorization, though, are you? You're saying memorization, without understanding, is almost all there is - the sort of affect that modern day models, such as blooms taxonomy, have. If that is your sentiment, then yes, that is partially what I was agreeing with.

However, I mistakenly assumed you also understood the importance of allowing people to not only learn in the manner that is best for them, but also in the manner that is most effective for everyone in a society, but I guess you haven't thought that through yet.

Also worth mentioning, to reiterate my initial post and to get back on topic, is that not everyone cares to understand, so no matter which model you want to use to teach with, you still will not make a child learn understanding, if he/she doesn't want to learn; and to that point, and because of that point, I do not think it is our right to force anyone into any ideology, or learning method, that they do not want to adhere to. I think it is only important to safe guard against people who would impose upon others' choices of how they want to live, and learn, as they so please.

reply to post by ZeuZZ


In short, yes. I think we should not try to forcibly protect each other from what we might deem to be "stupid", because we are all stupid in the eyes of others; and for that reason, no one group should have the right to choose the lifestyles of others, based on what they find to be right, wrong, best, worst, or stupid because no one has any more of an accurate understanding of truth, than anyone else.

Seriously, unless you have some divine understanding, then your understanding is nothing more than your opinion, and I think we should all keep our opinions from interfering with the right to the pursuit of happiness.

If, however, someone is being forced to do something beyond their will, such as being forced into learning what they do not want to learn, and/or forced to do so in the manner that they do not choose themselves, then yes, we should make laws against that.

For all anyone knows, the right way to live might just be the snake oil buyers and sellers, so why should we get to force them to stop what they find happiness in?

If people want to do some stupid cupping thing, then it's their right.

reply to post by ZeuZZ

Tyson's integrity was lost when he sold out to mainstream science

Originally posted by ZeuZZ
So you think that Bob from America who claims to be channeling Xebor from the plaides star system and charging people $400 a transmission should be held with the same relative respect than the radio stations that we actually get productive information from for basically free?

I'll step in here as I take a bit of umbrage with some of what you've said in regards to channeling. Although I agree that channeling is a not thoroughly understood form of parapsychology, I do believe that it can, on occasion, yield very illuminating and educational results. Now obviously, I can't speak or vouch for the accuracy of all channels, and, if we were to make a comparison to television, they are probably only a few channels that are really worth watching.

Again, I can't speak as to the accuracy of the fictitious Bob from America's channeling, but I will tell you that Bub Hill from Canada I've found to be an remarkably tuned channel. He doesn't charge anything for his channelings, they are all mostly available on his website. He conducts a free channeling session twice monthly in his hometown of Moose Jaw, Canada, these sessions are open to the public. Of course, he does have a book that may be purchased if one wishes, and a few CD's, but there are dozens of sessions that are freely available on the website. He's not doing this for monetary gain, of that I am absolutely certain.

www.joshiah.com...

From there, one may peruse from the freely available sessions, which are many, and most of them with audio. This is some of the best and most logically concise (from my perspective, of course, and as always) speaking that I've ever heard. I'm certain that he's not doing this to deceive and con people out of their money. The only alternative would be that this channeling is coming from his own subconscious, rather than from an entity existing outside our vibrational level. It's a possibility I suppose, but if I had to bet, I'd bet the house on the latter. Anyway, I know how hard it can be to change another's belief systems, as that choice is one that one must make for themselves, so, I'll just let the material speak for itself and you can read and think as you choose. The following post will be an excerpt from the September 5th, 2010 session, which may be seen here-

www.joshiah.com...

Thanks friends, and be well.

And so this reality that you’re experiencing is indeed a reality that validates beliefs that you at some level of your consciousness have chosen to hold, beliefs that you have chose to hold as being realities that you desire to experience in your awake and consciousness state.

As difficult as that may seem to grasp at this level of consciousness in your so-called awake and consciousness state, nonetheless, it’s a quite accurate description of the reality that you’re experiencing. And as you are entering into this new age and new energy, it’s becoming much easier for you to consciously influence the reality, to get a grasp of the belief systems and to alter them so that you can alter the reality. And to be involved in a reality that’s less than desirable and to ask yourself, “Why am I involved?” You’re involved because you hold a belief system that’s responsible for that reality and that experience. As difficult as that may be to grasp in your awake and consciousness state, it’s nonetheless accurate. And until you grasp that concept, you can’t change it. You see, if you look at it and say, “Well, I’m not responsible, I don’t believe that, that’s a very difficult concept for me to hold, that I’m responsible for this entire reality.” Well, that’s OK from that spark of consciousness from which you create your reality. Once again, there’s no judgment. And so, you continue to be involved in a reality where you’re not in control to validate the belief that you choose to hold that you’re not in control.

There’s not some other entity sitting out there that says, “Ah, we’re going to subject them to this type of existence. And we’re going to make sure that they go through either this positive or negative experience. And we’re going to allow them to experience some type of happy existence or we’re going to deny them the right to have that happy existence.” Absolutely not. It’s your choice. It’s your reality. It’s your belief systems. And if you choose to believe that you’re not in control, then you create the reality to validate that belief. But what’s important to grasp is the concept that you choose, that you choose to believe. It’s your choice.

You exist in this vibrational level because you choose to be here. And if you believe that you must learn from lessons, and that there are certain realities that you have to experience in order to go through some type of evolution then indeed you will create the reality to validate the belief and you can have that.

Again, we’re not suggesting that it’s right or wrong. We’re not suggesting that believing one way is superior to another. Absolutely not. What we’re suggesting is that if you wish to be in control of your reality, if you wish to move into this so-called new age and new energy with the capacity to consciously influence the reality through the choices and decisions that you’re making, based upon the belief systems that you hold and the thoughts and feelings that you have, then you must accept the responsibility for the reality. If you don’t accept the responsibility, it’s not right or wrong, you can have that, absolutely. But it limits your capacity to be consciously influencing the beliefs that you hold so that you can change the reality from a conscious state rather than from a subconscious state, from which the majority of your so-called reality is influenced and created or at least have been in your so-called past, in your so-called history, and in your other incarnational periods. But it’s your choice. It’s your choice and it’s not right or wrong.

You see, it’s important that you grasp that concept as well, that this is not a right or wrong. You can’t fail. You can’t go through this existence in this vibrational level and end up at some negative point at the end of it. You may indeed create that illusion that it exists, [the,] some type of negative point at the end of this incarnational period, but you can’t sustain it. You cannot fail to come to the understanding of who and what you truly are. It’s one of the things that you can’t change. No matter how much you feel you’re not in control, you can’t get rid of it. It won’t go away. At some point in your so-called existence, in your consciousness, you understand that you are in absolute control and you can’t get rid of that. You cannot fail to come to the understanding of who and what you truly are.

So this is not a right or wrong. We’re not suggesting that you must do this or you must do that, absolutely not. It’s a choice. You can’t fail to come to the understanding of who or what you truly are. So if you can’t fail, then you don’t have to do this or that. It’s your choice. It’s your choice.

What we’re suggesting is that if you desire to have the ability to consciously influence your reality then you have to first of all have to accept the responsibility for it and understand that it’s a reflection of your beliefs. That it’s a reflection of your choices. That it’s a reflection of your desires. That it’s a validation of your imagination. Not someone else’s. Not some other entity, not your neighbors, not other entities involved in this incarnational period or these interactions that you’re having—yours.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Bleeeeep

 

I think the OP is talking about how we, as people, as not taught to think anymore. We are told what to think, not taught how to think. Consider in your education.....when you did math.....you (and most of your classmates) hated having to do "word problems". Word problems? Why are they called that? It is more like they should be called, "real world problems".

The math you are taught is not taught as an applied mathematics. It is more theoretical mathematics. You are given abstract formulas to memorize. If you are good at memorization, some of those formulas may last in your mind a little longer. But the applied capabilities of those formulas does not change. For example, to this day I still remember the slope intercept formula (y=mx+b). What is its applied use? I have no clue. I am 40, and am considered a "math whiz" in my company. Go figure....but its all because of my applied capabilities (i am good with Excel).

Exactly! I always sucked at math in school. It was always, here's a bunch of equations, what's the answer?

I always wondered what the question was for in the first place.

Plus all the math & algebra teachers I had were snoozers. Very boring people who did nothing to encourage any imagination. It was education by rote.

However, after I had dropped out of HS I was exposed to people who did teach applied math as it pertained to the job, and I excelled. Whodathunk? I finally could see where the numbers led to and it made sense.

Seriously, unless you have some divine understanding

I do have diving understanding. I listen to yoda, and am a qualified Jedi (pre light-saber, until they are invented) An enlightened person does not ask anyone to believe anything. They simply point the way and leave people to find it for themselves.

To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness, Padawan. Be a candle, or the night.
--YODA, Dark Rendezvous

Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.
--YODA, Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

No! Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.
--YODA, Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
--YODA, Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

....

Ok, on a more serious note, I dont think it takes any sort of divine knowledge to realize that half the world we are surrounded by if full of deceitful people making money out of uneducated people who can't tell the difference between established investments and worthwhile institutions and alternative garbage that lacks any evidence.

Advertising is another abomination to our youth, they are brought up with such a consumer based materialist mindset, if only I can buy this, or that, then soon they see gaining as many possessions as possible their main purpose in life. In reality the advertising industry is selling you products you don't really need, can't really afford and probably wont increase your happiness in life.

What the whole point of school for at the moment? To try to educate people so they get good jobs, it's all about aspiring for riches. When was the last time you heard of a school that taught children how to make friends, have relationships, handle anger and arguments, or just any general life experience?

Sure advertising creates successful people and businesses.
The world does not need more successful people.
The planet desperately needs more peacemakers, healers, restorers and storytellers.

People were created to be loved. Things were created to be used.
The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved and people are being used.
People are able to be used due to the educational problems and the consumer based mindset.

And this happens from a very young age now in our culture. Its a tragedy.

As I said on the first page:

Originally posted by ZeuZZ

We have to stop consuming our culture. We have to create culture, don't watch TV, don't read magazines, don't even listen to NPR. Create your own roadshow. The nexus of space and time where you are now is the most immediate sector of your universe, and if you're worrying about Michael Jackson or Bill Clinton or somebody else, then you are disempowered, you're giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is #-brained, this kind of thinking. That is all cultural diversion, and what is real is you and your friends and your associations, your highs, your orgasms, your hopes, your plans, your fears.

Yet we are told 'no', we're unimportant, we're peripheral. 'Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.' And then you're a player, you don't want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world.

Originally posted by ZeuZZ

Fantastic graphic!!!

Some other sources for "Education from the Inside Out" - these concepts are not new but always renewing:

See anything on Waldorf Education and Rudolf Steiner on Education:

www.whywaldorfworks.org...

www.amazon.com...

www.waldorfanswers.com...

Joseph Chilton Pearce:

ttfuture.org...

Particularly:

www.amazon.com...

Rocked my world. One of those books that jumped out at me at the bookstore (Papa Bach on Santa Monica Blvd back in the day when there were real bookshops) for years before I read it. Not an easy read - his latter works are much easier to read - but well worth the effort.

Canadain Gabor Mate (who writes a lot on addiction):

ttfuture.org...

drgabormate.com...

Rahima Baldwin:[/b]

www.informedfamilylife.org...



Plato on Education: (Please keep in mind the context Plato thought in. In is necessary to update his context to modern society and modern needs to keep his ideas relevant)

Plato’s relevance to modern day educators can be seen at a number of levels. First, he believed, and demonstrated, that educators must have a deep care for the well-being and future of those they work with. Educating is a moral enterprise and it is the duty of educators to search for truth and virtue, and in so doing guide those they have a responsibility to teach. As Charles Hummel puts it in his excellent introductory essay (see below), the educator, ‘must never be a mere peddler of materials for study and of recipes for winning disputes, nor yet for promoting a career.

Second, there is the ‘Socratic teaching method’. The teacher must know his or her subject, but as a true philosopher he or she also knows that the limits of their knowledge. It is here that we see the power of dialogue – the joint exploration of a subject – ‘knowledge will not come from teaching but from questioning’.

Third, there is his conceptualization of the differing educational requirements associated with various life stages. We see in his work the classical Greek concern for body and mind. We see the importance of exercise and discipline, of story telling and games. Children enter school at six where they first learn the three Rs (reading, writing and counting) and then engage with music and sports. Plato’s philosopher guardians then follow an educational path until they are 50. At eighteen they are to undergo military and physical training; at 21 they enter higher studies; at 30 they begin to study philosophy and serve the polis in the army or civil service. At 50 they are ready to rule. This is a model for what we now describe as lifelong education (indeed, some nineteenth century German writers described Plato’s scheme as ‘andragogy’). It is also a model of the ‘learning society’ – the polis is serviced by educators. It can only exist as a rational form if its members are trained – and continue to grow.

Finally, a quote from Aldous Huxley:

“Universal education has created an immense class of what I may call the New Stupid, hungering for certainty yet unable to find it in the traditional myths and their rationalizations.”

www.goodreads.com...

Originally posted by ZeuZZ

I didn't quote anything he said, they were my own words. I'm talking about quashing free thinking, im talking about calling the pernicious forms of idiocy like iridology or homeopathy, that make money off innocent people in exchange for lies, accountable for their actions.

Homeopathy is a lie? Hmm - then I must be stupid because it's worked for me and I was a long time skeptic on the subject. My daughter suffered horrible croup - nothing the doctors suggested worked; I finally tried homeopathics and they worked within a couple of days. They have continued to work (laryngitis is caused by the same virus) for over twenty years. I've had success with other remedies as well. Maybe just the power of thought but it works.

If you are interested in holistic education - one of the main benefits of such is an OPEN MIND.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I don't think using the term 'modern society' is so bad. Yes - it is simplistic - but it is a workable short hand for "the society - with all it's benefits and defects - we are living with/in". All that said, I want to share an extended quote from Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's "The Evolving Self:....".

I hesitated to include him earlier because there is just so much revelant material on the subject of education and he is more concerned with personal development then formal school based education. He does touch on all sources of education (phsyical - genes, sociatal - memes and personal). The subject goes way beyond just 'schools' in involves famiiies, neighborhoods, governements, businesses, religion, media, etc., etc.

Csikszentmihalyi and others (I don't have a comprehensive list at hand but can come up with one should anyone wish in short order) address these differing 'educational inputs'.

The quote (and I'm typing from the book- so please excuse typos):

A good society needs more than schools with a broad curriculum and up-to-date science labs. Education takes place in the whole community. It is the malls, the highways, the media, and tehir parents' lifestyles that give young people their clearest ideas of what reality is about. It is true that much of what they perceive is the kind of illusion of which the veils of Myay are woven; nevertheless, for a self that is not yet trained to distinguish between useful and entropic memes, it is such appearances that will shape the mind. (emphasis mine). If we wish to have a society in which freedom coexists with responsibility, we must ensure that the environment in which young people grow up provides complex experiences.

Utopian thinkers from Plato to Aldous Huxley have proposed educational ideals that, even though they are still challenging and perhaps impractical to implement, contain such important insights that we connot ignore them without peril. What is common to these ideals is that they emphasize the training of the whole person, building on spontaneous interests and potentialities, and they stress risks and responsibilities, while making possible a joyous experience of growth. For instance, Plato understood that it didn't make sense to expect children to grasp abstract ideas until they had learned how to control their bodies in athletic exercise, and until they had learned about order through the rhythm of music and other form of sensory harmony.

I skip a couple of paragraphs and continue:

These radical visions hinge on the insight that true education involves growing to appreciate the direct links that exist between actions and consequences - in one's body, in one's social network, in the planetary environment as a whole. Nowadays (1993) learning is generally mediated by abstract information; no appreciable risk is involved, no direct experience of effects is possible, except throught a failing grade. But a bad grade only tells you that you havent'convinced the teacher that you have studied, and it does not give any clues about the truth of what you have learned.

I skip over much of importance in the interest of brevity to his conclusion:

A good society, one that encouraes individuals to realize their potential and permits complexity to evolve, is one that provides room for growth. Its task is not to build the best institutions, create the most compelling beliefs, for to do so would be to succumbto an illusion. Institutions and beliefs age rapidly; they serve our needs for a while, but soon begin to act as brakes on progress. Even the Bible, even the Constitution are only steps in the process of continuing elightenment. They are glorious achievements, to be admired and revered with the awe with which we approach the Parthenon, the sistine Chapel, or Bach's Brandenburg Concerto. And we should certainly not abandon their wisdom until we discover more compelling formulations. but the task of a good society is not to enshrine the creative solutions of the past into permanent institutions; it is, rather, to make is possible for creativity to keep asserting iteself. Its task is to give people a chance to bring forth new memes to be evaluated, selected, and joyously implemented by informed, free, and responsible peers.

From: "The Evolving Self: A Psychology for the Thrid Millennium" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. Published by Harper Perennial, New York, 1993. Pages 273 - 276 (Chapter title - The Flow of History; Section title - The Good Society)

reply to post by FyreByrd


We can call it modern society all we want. But the implication is that because of our modern society being a modern society, that it is somehow more exquisite than those cultures that have come before it. It is akin to considering Neandertals to be cavemen.

There is really nothing new under the sun. Just novel expressions of the same old stuff.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

We can call it modern society all we want. But the implication is that because of our modern society being a modern society, that it is somehow more exquisite than those cultures that have come before it. It is akin to considering Neandertals to be cavemen.

There is really nothing new under the sun. Just novel expressions of the same old stuff.

I appreciate what you are saying, but the complexity and interconnectedness is speeding up, and worse it seems to be accelerating.

Could you give me five guesses about what the world will be like in 30 years time? ... I doubt you could. Back in 1950 we could work out 30 years trends and guess, but now the worly is far more chaotic, unpredictable and complex.