Pain

reply to post by solomons path

But, the nerves sending the pain signal to the brain

No doubt pain is important, else we'd all be sticking our hands in campfires to cook marshmallows. OUCH! But, those nerve endings had to evolve, then they had to connect to a part of the brain that also evolved to receive those messages.

We get the idea that our opposable thumbs evolved from frequent use of tools. What did we frequently use in order for the brain's pain gate and all those nerve endings to evolve?

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the Pain Mechanism is in the Reptilian Brain. It is what tells us that the stove is Hot pull you hand away. We have pain to keep us from hurting ourselves. I guess I would call that a physical Pain. Unfortunately, there are those that would use that against a person

On the other hand how about the type of pain we experience when we have Broken Heart. Does it originate in the brain stem as well or does it come from the creative centers of the brain?

Yup, physical AND emotional pain had to have evolved from either random mutation, or survival of the fittest, or repetitive movement that required alterations to the body. I can't see random mutation creating a pain system. When thinking on survival of the fittest, I'm pretty sure that fear of getting killed and eaten would have been a big plus in the need to create a pain system, but it didn't allow those creatures to pass on new information to offspring - information like: Create pain system so future idiots will run from predators.

Originally posted by jiggerj
No doubt pain is important, else we'd all be sticking our hands in campfires to cook marshmallows. OUCH! But, those nerve endings had to evolve, then they had to connect to a part of the brain that also evolved to receive those messages.

We get the idea that our opposable thumbs evolved from frequent use of tools. What did we frequently use in order for the brain's pain gate and all those nerve endings to evolve?

The nerve endings don't only process pain though, they are a 'tool' or 'device' for navigating our environment...specific pain receptors are a by product of that facility rather than as a direct result of experiencing pain.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

And the animals that happen to identify pain, to their own success, are the ones who's genes were pushed forward.

So, you're saying there was a point when (probably single-celled organisms) didn't have any pain receptors. Right? And all life went from no nervous system to a few thousands miles of nerves and nerve endings purely by chance? I can't fathom that.

Originally posted by billy565
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Is this a serious question?

I'm not going to repeat the obvious reasons which have already been stated. Try using common sense, pain is a warning that the body has sustained damage.

If we didn't feel pain people would be walking or lurching around like a bunch of zombies.


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Seems some of us evolved into homo sapiens without the ability to comprehend the written word. You want to try reading the OP again? It isn't about how pain is needed, how pain is important, or how you are a pain. It's okay, go back and try again.

Not that i'm not following...... But..... What if Evolution has nothing to do with pain? What if it was the Concious mind that decides what pain is going to effect each individual? As all people don't feel the same pain. And not due to any illness, less receptive nerves whatever, I would think that is a different topic.

Why wouldn't pain have always existed? Even for that ameba, yes a single cell organism but to what end do we state conciousness starts and ends? An ameba is just doing the Ameba thing.... But it still reacts and does the ameba dance.... No?

Even animals have a concious mind...

Pain can also be seen as Empathy or by some who have the ability to be a Empath feel the same pain that one is going through, whether experianced by the empath in there lifetime or not, maybe just a greater understanding of pain and the effects it has?

I'm confused.

I think pain is all assbackwards.

Stingy nettles, hammer on the toe and hip on the corner of the table all hurt way out of proportion but cancer, tumours and heart disease don't alert us enough.

You are right, evolution should have sorted it out by now.

Originally posted by cody599
reply to post by jiggerj

 

On a different note
I still remember the pain of losing my first love, she still carries a piece of my heart.

What was the point of that pain ?

I guess it taught me to be careful with others feelings

Just a random thought Jigger

I'm gonna sit in the corner and sulk for a bit now

Cody

Not such a different note. The question isn't WHY we experience pain, but HOW did pain come into being? Were there organisms with no pain receptors that evolved into organisms with a few pain receptors, then evolved into organisms with a LOT of pain receptors? If so, why? What was in mindless nature that compelled all living things to grow pain receptors? We KNOW that pain is good, but a third arm to scratch the itch in the middle of the back would be soooo good too, but we didn't get that. Why did we get the ability to feel pain?

Originally posted by jiggerj
And all life went from no nervous system to a few thousands miles of nerves and nerve endings purely by chance? I can't fathom that.

That is, concisely, the theory of Natural Selection. Partly chance, but mostly, those who live longer are more likely to successfully reproduce. Pain serves to prolong life (if properly interpreted).

And we're not talking overnight, millions of years, plus billions and billions of generations. And as already mentioned, the building blocks of pain are the ability to sense other aspects of our environment. Even bacteria can sense.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

The nerve endings don't only process pain though, they are a 'tool' or 'device' for navigating our environment...specific pain receptors are a by product of that facility rather than as a direct result of experiencing pain.

I can't say that great minds think alike because I don't know if your statement is correct. But, it's exactly what I've been thinking. In order to feel anything with our finger tips we needed to have millions of nerve endings grow there. And, the pain we feel when the fingers are hurt is only a matter of the brain interpreting the sensation through the damaged nerve endings.

So, pain did not evolve to protect us from putting our hands in a fire, or to teach us to run from falling rocks. This outcome was purely random and we were purely LUCKY to have enough pain to steer us away from trouble.

Unless anyone can offer a better explanation for pain, I'm going with our premise as the truth.

i understand pain, it keeps us safe, my only question is why have
we not evolved to be able to shut pain off.
Chronic pain is no fun at all, i deal with it on a daily basis, take morphine to
try to keep it at levels i can tolerate.
What i find odd is that so far we have not evolved into a state where long term
pain can not be shut off, where one constantly has to weight quality of life to
quantity of life.
a limit switch of some kind in the brain would be a nice thing.

Originally posted by jiggerj
No doubt pain is important, else we'd all be sticking our hands in campfires to cook marshmallows. OUCH! But, those nerve endings had to evolve, then they had to connect to a part of the brain that also evolved to receive those messages.

Yes they did over millions of years of course. You aren't going to suddenly go from experiencing no touch sense to experiencing pleasure and pain. Pain didn't suddenly evolve from nothing. You are making it seem like there was absolutely no nervous system and then all of a sudden millions of nerve endings and brain connections appeared.

Pain is good. It teaches you things. You put your hand on a burning stove, you instantly know never to do it again. If you really want to get into pain, you want to talk about the evolution of the brain and nervous system, which goes way back farther than humans. Pain is a key survival trait, but it comes from the sense of touch, with the 2 extremes being pain and pleasure. If another creature could just walk up to you in the middle of the night and start eating you and you didn't realize it, chances of surviving are next to nothing. Stub your toe and don't realize it, and it gets infected and you die.

We get the idea that our opposable thumbs evolved from frequent use of tools. What did we frequently use in order for the brain's pain gate and all those nerve endings to evolve?

I wouldn't say the use of tools is what caused opposable thumbs. I think you have it backwards. Thumbs were around before tools. It's more about the ability to manipulate things with our hands. A creature with thumbs has better success harvesting fruit and grabbing things, which comes in handy in a harsh dangerous African jungle. It is also extremely helpful in the creation of tools. Creatures with thumbs were more successful than the ones without thumbs. It's that simple. A common misconception about evolution is that repetitive action leads to evolutionary changes. That isn't true. Right now humans use computers to the extreme. That doesn't mean that we're going to evolve 20 fingers that are longer, simply because we type a lot. Does the increased typing lead to an evolutionary advantage to pass down genes? Nope. It's irrelevant.

And it has nothing to do with luck. Originally there were creatures without strong pain sensations, and creatures with them. The ones with them were more likely to survive and pass down genes. It really is that simple. It's not even close to luck. It's obvious logical linear progression. Pain evolved because IT DID protect us from tons of dangerous things. Feeling in itself is the first step to pain.

Originally posted by severdsoul
i understand pain, it keeps us safe, my only question is why have
we not evolved to be able to shut pain off.
Chronic pain is no fun at all, i deal with it on a daily basis, take morphine to
try to keep it at levels i can tolerate.
What i find odd is that so far we have not evolved into a state where long term
pain can not be shut off, where one constantly has to weight quality of life to
quantity of life.
a limit switch of some kind in the brain would be a nice thing.

It can be shut off with enough meds, although I can't really see the evolutionary advantage in being able to turn off our nervous system, in particular the nerve endings. How would that help lead to increased survival and passing down of genes? Most people don't suffer chronic pain until later in life, after they already have kids, so I can't see any way evolution would effect this trait. It's unfortunate, but evolution doesn't just give people abilities that would be cool or helpful. It has to do with surviving long enough to pass down genes, which we seem to do fine with... pain or no pain. I'd expect that type of ability, if there was a designer or creator, not with evolution. If somebody is in pain, it usually prevents them from doing certain activities. These activities would probably be more detrimental than if you simply couldn't feel them or didn't know you even had a problem with your body.