Christianity cracked

OK, OK, OK...There are too many rebuttals and opinions flying around here..but i'll do my best to further my case.
For those who say the apostles only performed miracles due to being filled with the holy spirit...well, already that takes Jesus out of the equation as being the power source or battery for all of the miracles. And if we are to accept the holy spirit enabled the apostles to perform miracles, then what is the holy spirit, other than an invisible force that surrounds and penetrates all matter at all times..akin to the "force" in starwars..but if the holy spirit is everywhere at all times, then under the right circumstances and training or belief, anyone should be able to access it in order to perform supernatural feats. Indicating that the battery and the power source for bending reality through our consciousness, is a force that is with us at all times, the holy spirit or "God", but only by some extraordinary act of belief can we access it.

Again to further my case against those who have said Jesus enabled to apostles like Peter to perform miracles through his own mystical power, look at the Bible for a character known as Simon Magus, also known as "Simon the Sorcerer". This guy wasn't even a Christian and supposedly could fly..i didn't even hear of Jesus being able to pull off that stunt. So if your going to pick and choose from the Bible, then tell me what is a character like Simon Magus doing in there and where did he get his power to perform miracles, as it certainly was not from Jesus. Let me guess, you'll all say Satan...well if that's the case how come Simon magus is not haled as a demon or as Satan in the Good book? Instead he is referred to as a sorcerer, meaning he got his supernatural abilities through magic..and what is magic? Is it God? Is it the holy spirit? because there seems little difference between what Simon Magus could do and what Jesus could do, so the source of their abilities must be drawn from the very same well..And that is the utter belief that they indeed could do these things, but the question is how did they get through the barrier we all face, witch is the barrier of our own minds?. As I said Jesus and Buddha spent a lot of time in meditation, could this be the key?

Remember there is at least one guru in India who claims to never have eaten or even drank water, and still survives..is it true? Most people say absolutely not, yet limited tests have been conducted that seem to indicate he may well be telling the truth. Then there was the "Buddha Boy" who achieved world wide notoriety for allegedly siting as still as a rock under a tree, without food or water, for at least 6 months. It could all be a scam of course, but remember theses people claim to achieve these supernatural feats through meditation.

www.youtube.com...

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Firstly, Jesus said we are all Gods children

No He didn't.

this would indicate that if Jesus was Gods son and we are also Gods children, then Jesus was an ordinary man and not "special", or "chosen". I am basing this assumption on Jesus own words and interpreting them directly.

Jesus was God's begotten son, Christians are his adopted sons.

Obviously if Jesus died so we could live forever, then we would all live forever "literally" here on earth,

That is not a logical deduction.

Your premise fails on at least 3 points and I'm not even to the miracle stuff yet.

reply to post by Snsoc


"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Uh.. That's what Jesus said.

Further more...lets look at miraculous people, long after the time of Jesus. Take one phenomena known as Bilocation..The ability to appear in two places at the same time.


Several Christian saints and monks are said to have exhibited bilocation. St. Alphonsus Liguori is said to have gone into a TRANCE while preparing for Mass. When he came out of the trance he reported that he had visited the bedside of the dying Pope Clement XIV. His presence is then said to have been confirmed by those attending the Pope despite his being four days travel away, and not appearing to have left his original location. Other Christian figures said to have experienced bilocation include St. Anthony of Padua, Ursula Micaela Morata, St. Gerard Majella, Charles of Mount Argus, St. Pio of Pietrelcina,[29] St. Severus of Ravenna, St. Ambrose of Milan, María de Ágreda,[30] and St. Martin de Porres, María de León Bello y Delgado, as well as Pope Cyril VI of Alexandria. St Isidro Labrador was known to be praying or attending to mass in Church while at the same time plowing in the fields.

In the 17th century, persons accused of witchcraft were reported to appear in dreams and visions of witnesses. The trials at Bury St. Edmunds and Salem included this "Spectral evidence" against defendants. Matthew Hopkins described the phenomenon in his book The Discovery of Witches.
The English occultist Aleister Crowley was reported by acquaintances to have the ability, even though he himself was not conscious of its happening at the time.[31]
Vladimir Lenin was seen in his Moscow Kremlin office digging through papers in October 1923 while he was critically ill in Gorki

This was taken from Wikipedia...but notice the similarity between Christian miracles and people like Aleister Crowley supposedly achieving the same results. the Christian saints went into deep prayer or trance states...whilst Crowley was said to be "not conscious". then compare this again to Jesus and Simon the Sorcerer.

The common link here is an altered state of consciousness. Regardless of your personal beliefs, it appears to be once your in a particular state of mind you can access a different level of reality, literally in the physical world.
Also note that Bilocation is a property of quantum particles.

reply to post by TheBlackHat


Interesting note the catholics say jesus descended into hell during his three days of death, but when he was on the cross he said to the theif next to him " today you will join me in paradise."

makes you think, huh?

reply to post by TheBlackHat


Maybe kinda like how those monks levitate or set things on fire. Interesting.
2nd

Gs

reply to post by leostokes


I am assuming, but logic tells me that the miracles are impossible. Do you really think that Rome, of all people, would really let the truth out there? They were murderers and liars for over a thousand years before they legalized Christianity, they wouldn't have changed that.

You see the world around us today right? We can't get the truth on hardly ANYTHING, do you really think they'd allow us to have the ultimate "truth" for over 2,000 years? I think it's a bit ignorant to think they would. To think they would is to ignore history and the world around us today.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat

Do I believe I can walk on water, NO. but I do believe that it's possible to convince yourself of anything...

edit on 2-5-2013 by TheBlackHat because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-5-2013 by TheBlackHat because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-5-2013 by Gemwolf because: Removed all caps title

This is the only sentence that made sense in your entire post.

If anything, the bible should be taken metaphorically, not at all literally. If you take ANYTHING in the bible literally, then you are cheating yourself out of a wealth of information and symbolism.

Jesus probably wasn't even real first of all, if he was it's a god damned miracle that a blonde haired blue eyed guy came from the middle east. Secondly, people didn't "speak japanese" when they spoke in tongues. They jibbered random made up words chaotically. Big difference.

reply to post by charles1952


How was them gaining the holy spirit not caused by them? They were the ones who believed right? If they believed then they themselves were the cause of their belief, which in turn means they caused the holy spirit to be given to them. With Peter at least, Paul was given the holy spirit without believing and after persecuting Christians. Why would Jesus pick a bad tree to bear good fruit? Think about that.

Peter and Paul also commanded people to rise from the dead, and they did. To think that Jesus was special for raising from the dead and performing other miracles is to ignore the other miracles supposedly performed by mortal men (Paul and Peter). Paul possibly rose from the dead after being stoned, but I'm guessing you'll disagree with that.

If the holy spirit allows those who have it to raise people from the dead, we'd see Christians raising the dead all the time, but we don't. Convenient that all this raising people from the dead stopped as soon as we got video cameras and other technology.

So what was your argument about to begin with? You seemed to be making a case that miracles were only performed "by" Jesus and no one else. Are you back tracking from that now?

reply to post by charles1952


If the Romans didn't end the movement quickly, they WOULD have been a force to be reckoned with. Jesus gained thousands of followers in only a few short years, if they let the message keep spreading, it would have been huge, so they nipped it in the bud by persecuting and killing them.

What Jesus taught was that no one should be afraid of death because death is only an illusion. How could the Romans intimidate people with death threats if no one was afraid to die? They couldn't, which is why they stifled the movement before it could spread any further. They then took advantage of Jesus' teachings and twisted them to fit their own needs.

I'll ask again, why would "they" let the real truth out there? Why would Constantine, a murderer, tyrant, and slaver legalize something that would set the people free? A tyrant only looks out for himself, not the greater good.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
reply to post by Snsoc

 

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Uh.. That's what Jesus said.

Psalm 82:6 was written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. I seriously doubt he said it. Why not leave the apologetics to people who have actually studied scripture?

reply to post by TheBlackHat


I bet you were a joy to raise.

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheBlackHat

Do I believe I can walk on water, NO. but I do believe that it's possible to convince yourself of anything...

edit on 2-5-2013 by TheBlackHat because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-5-2013 by TheBlackHat because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-5-2013 by Gemwolf because: Removed all caps title

This is the only sentence that made sense in your entire post.

If anything, the bible should be taken metaphorically, not at all literally. If you take ANYTHING in the bible literally, then you are cheating yourself out of a wealth of information and symbolism.

Jesus probably wasn't even real first of all, if he was it's a god damned miracle that a blonde haired blue eyed guy came from the middle east. Secondly, people didn't "speak japanese" when they spoke in tongues. They jibbered random made up words chaotically. Big difference.

I think you misunderstand me..Right now i don't believe I can walk on water, because I am in my regular normal state of mind. My rational state of mind tells me if i am sitting down or standing up etc. My rational mind tells me when i touch a solid object that it is indeed solid.
What i am stating is that under certain conditions, you can go from having a ration viewpoint of the world, and change your perceptions of what reality is. Obviously when under the influence of powerful psychoactive drug's such as '___' people believe that reality is bending in front of their eyes. We have heard stories of people jumping off buildings under the influence of such drugs, because during that time, they believed without question that they could fly etc.

Of course we also know that jumping off a building when under the influence of '___', leads to a big red splat on the concrete. However the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater because too many of these alleged supernatural experiences, where people can bilocate or walk on water or fly or levitate...have been linked to an altered state of consciousness or trance state.
I conclude that somehow you would need to be both fully awake in the rational sense, yet also awake in the altered state, because people who apparently have achieved paranormal feats were not high on drugs, but in some other altered state which drugs like '___' possibly mimic unsuccessfully perhaps.

This leads to the question of '___', which is naturally occurring withing the human brain, yet we only experience a small dose of it whilst dreaming. From what I have heard if a powerful dose of '___' is ingested or even inhaled, some people claim that the hallucinations that are seen ,are not just hallucinations but a "real" glimpse of another reality unlike what people experience on '___'. A doorway to another dimension.


I forgot about mentioning drugs...my bad...seriously though...this was hardly a promotion...if a certain drug is naturally occurring in the brain then why would i be barred from naming it????? Frankly deleting its name is a step too far as it is making reading my response near impossible..

Originally posted by micmerci

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
reply to post by Snsoc

 

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Uh.. That's what Jesus said.

Psalm 82:6 was written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. I seriously doubt he said it. Why not leave the apologetics to people who have actually studied scripture?

Oh come on, I contest a statement, so you rebut me, or at least you try to. we could go round in circles forever with the Bible..because every fool knows the Bible is contradictory. basically because the old testament is all about the all powerful God who buried soldiers under the sea, turned a woman to a pillar of salt just for looking the wrong way and asked Abraham to kill his own son, just for a bit of a laugh... The Old testament belongs to the Jews, it even states so because the Jews are "Gods chosen people", well you would hardly put that in a Christian book, because Christians aint Jewish, so if Jews are the chosen of God we may as well all convert now before its too late.....obviously..

The New testament is all about Jesus, who cared and shared for people. The truth is the old and new testament are two different books for two different religions and should never have been bundled together as one book, it just confused everyone.

But most of all for you to say what Jesus said, was written hundreds of years later...no 5h17, but you obviously are one of those who want to pick and choose what to accept from the Bible. At the end of the day any fool knows there is no proof of anything in the Bible, but if your going to take any of it seriously then you take all of it as word. Me personally, I don't take it that seriously, but at the same time i don't pick and choose what it says and i am only suggesting what the real meaning of Jesus teaching may well have been, literally that we can become immortal in the flesh and physically ascend into heaven, many people in the Bible did, not just Jesus, even Noah went up to heaven without dying first, as far as i recall.

reply to post by TheBlackHat


\\But if ordinary people are capable of miracles then how would that make Jesus any more "special" than an ordinary man with supreme and extraordinary belief?\\

Jesus was God on earth. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9

\\the religion that was formed centuries after his death\\

It was not formed centuries after his death. Peter and the Apostles were out preaching about Jesus. The book of Mark was written about AD 60.
1 Corinthians was written 25 years after Jesus resurrection.

\\it has been said he died to wipe our sins away and give us everlasting life. This obviously cannot be true\\

It is true. He was the sacrfice for our sins. He paid a debt He did not owe, we owed a debt we could not pay.
Read John 3:16 for everlasting life.

\\you can stay immortal here on earth in the flesh\\

No you can't. Our bodies die because of sin. We will get new bodies in the rapture if we are believers in Christ.

\\Jesus literally rose from death and he stated we had the same ability\\

We do not have the same ability to raise ourselves from the dead. Only God can raise someone from the dead. He is all powerful, we are not.

Originally posted by texastig
reply to post by TheBlackHat

 

But if ordinary people are capable of miracles then how would that make Jesus any more "special" than an ordinary man with supreme and extraordinary belief?

Jesus was God on earth. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9

the religion that was formed centuries after his death

It was not formed centuries after his death. Peter and the Apostles were out preaching about Jesus. The book of Mark was written about AD 60.
1 Corinthians was written 25 years after Jesus resurrection.

it has been said he died to wipe our sins away and give us everlasting life. This obviously cannot be true

It is true. He was the sacrfice for our sins. He paid a debt He did not owe, we owed a debt we could not pay.
Read John 3:16 for everlasting life.

you can stay immortal here on earth in the flesh

No you can't. Our bodies die because of sin. We will get new bodies in the rapture if we are believers in Christ.

Jesus literally rose from death and he stated we had the same ability

We do not have the same ability to raise ourselves from the dead. Only God can raise someone from the dead. He is all powerful, we are not.

1. Where do I start? if Jesus was God on earth, then why did he have a human body? Bleed blood? Sounds very much like an ordinary man to me, but with extraordinary capabilities. capabilities Jesus himself attributed to GOD.

2. The emperor Constantine pretty much created and promoted Christianity, to unify his empire. i highly doubt the original version of Christianity is any where close to the heavily edited version we have in the new testament. we all know a load of gospels were deleted from it for one thing. WHY???? Because they didn't fit with the agenda.

3. If Jesus died for our sins, then what does that mean? Shouldn't that mean that either people stopped sinning for the last 2000 years? or shouldn't it mean that no matter what sin we commit we can still get to heaven? Because if it means the latter, as most Christians think, then you don't need to even ask for forgiveness because Jesus already paid that debt. So why not just live the most wicked life you can life, if the debt has already been payed? See it doesn't stand up. Generally people don't live wretched lives simply because they don't want to.

...Sure people sin a little here and there but most people are not serial killers or sicko perverts. Because the worst people in the world are usually "evil" because they are born evil, like psychopaths are born with a slightly different brain structure, you can see it on a brain scan, they lack a part of the brain responsible for empathy, therefore their "evil" is mostly brought about by their genetics, and if this is the case then they are already innocent in Gods eyes because they lacked the free will to be normal functioning human beings.

4.If our bodies die due to sin, then explain why little children die? see its rubbish. Also you forget Adam and Eve, were ignorant of sin, that was until they ate from the tree of knowledge. According to the Bible Adam and Eve then "became like us" so God said, whoever "us" is, it indicates there was more than one God at that time. Also if God can part the sea without touching it, then why did he need to literally take a rib from Adam to make Eve? Sounds like God the Father is a human being with advanced knowledge of cloning, especially as he made us in his own image. All in all these are Gods who were made of flesh (Other than the Holy spirit), God the father and Jesus, if there was no importance to flesh bodies then Jesus had no need to return from death in the flesh nor go up to heaven in the flesh. This is what I honestly believe is the big trick played on Christians, telling them that they go to heaven when they die...I don't believe it..otherwise Jesus and a number of other Biblical characters would not have drifted up into the sky when they were still very much "ALIVE"..

Also if sin kills our bodies, then remember Adam and Eve once again, they were ignorant, like animals, before eating from the tree of knowledge, and because they were ignorant of knowledge they were "innocent of any wrong doing" because we know how ignorant animals behave, especially during mating season...yet only once they ate the apple, did they realize they needed to behave themselves and cover their bodies, and only then did they have the burden of guilt, because they then understood good from evil...and it was then that they became "like us" and it was also then that God barred them from eating from the tree of life.."immortality". Yet if God allows ignorant people, to become immortal in their human bodies, as suggested in the Garden of Eden, then that means people who have never heard the word of God are innocent of sin. Therefore remote Amazonian Indian tribes should also be immortal? But they are not..but according to you sin kills us..no it obviously doesn't kill us, we just die because we are made of living cells, and all living things die, regardless of sin,...that is of course, unless there is some way to cheat death, as Jesus managed to do, in his human body of flesh and blood.


5. As i said Jesus attributed his power to God, the apostles power came from the Holy Spirit Aka God. So in that case if you say only God has the power to raise the dead, then that means ordinary people can be raised from the dead too. Or do you not see your own words.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
...you don't need to even ask for forgiveness because Jesus already paid that debt. So why not just live the most wicked life you can life, if the debt has already been payed?

You cant be forgiven unless you ask.

This was confirmed by an atheist (Ian McCormack) who died and had a supernatural encounter with God. Jesus told him that he would have gone to hell if he had not ASKED.

It's too late to repent once you get down there. You can only repent before you die. You can't pray your way out of hell and no one on Earth can pray you out of hell, no one. You have to have prayed yourself. The Bible teaches that no one can pray for dead, departed souls and get them out of hell. They have to repent before death.

Pure, unadulterated, clean, uninhibited, undeserved, love. It began to fill me up from the inside out. I thought, “Perhaps God doesn't know all the things I've done wrong,” so I proceeded to tell him about all the disgusting things I'd done in the cover of darkness. But it was as though he'd already forgiven me and the intensity of his love only increased. In fact, later God showed me that when I'd asked for forgiveness in the ambulance, it was then he forgave me and washed my spirit clean from evil. Ian McCormack - Near-Death Experience

Ian was night diving off the island of Mauritius when he was stung multiple times by Box Jellyfish, which are among the most venomous creatures in the world. His testimony relates how he clung to life while getting to hospital, was declared clinically dead soon afterwards, and how during this time he had an encounter with Jesus, which radically changed the direction of his life. Link

/ /... The path... Of V... Family... You all are Gods Children... Some Good Some Evil... . / / ... Spiritual Souls... A Container and contained... U ... A cup looking to be filled a spirit... A Spiritual Cup... The first Adam was of Dirt... The Second Adam Of Water... The Third Adam Of Spirit... The Fourth Adam... From the heart and blood of this Holy Earth... A spiritual Vessel...

reply to post by Murgatroid


C'mon I cant watch a 40 minute video. Maybe this guy did see God..or maybe he hallucinated. I know a guy who said he talked to Jesus at the side of the road...he was off his medication at the time.



look all i am getting at is there was no need for anyone in the Bible to ascend to Heaven whilst still in their human bodies...if we are supposed to go there when our human body dies.
Also even if a person is pretty sinful, and then repents, they more often than not, go back to their old ways again... this is why prisons are full of repeat offenders and this is also why catholic's have confession, people don't just go one time, they go all their lives to confess sins and get absorbed repeatedly.
So lets say your a sinner and on your death bed you repent and ask for gods forgiveness...then your mind gets transferred into a new body in heaven...Do you really think a life long sinner, once through the pearly gates isn't going to go back to his old ways again...haha..of course he would...because that's "human nature."

And it also shows you how you..and almost everyone out there who calls themselves Christians have missed a VERY, VERY IMPORTANT POINT. It's your Soul that is supposed to go to heaven..not your mind. Your soul is supposed to be immortal..that means your soul like everyone elses was in existence before you were born, you just have no memory of it. Idiots believe they will die and be allowed to live again in some utopia..well how could human beings live in a utopia? Human beings are inherently flawed even the Bible states we all have original sin...so how on earth can a bunch of sinners occupy heaven? It wouldn't be heaven if it was full of people. Out of maybe a billion people, maybe 10 are perfect enough to get to heaven, if even that many. This thing about the soul insures nobody can ever have proof of life after death, because the mind does not go to heaven and if your mind dies, as it does with people who get dementia, then what is the soul? This is a nice trick to get people with..You all think your mind goes to heaven. it doesn't and nobody ever said it did.


Like I said to begin with Jesus literally went up to heaven...suggesting that heaven is a literal physical place, not some dream like zone...Perhaps even a planet...otherwise why do people ascend UPWARDS.

You have two choices ... Heaven Or Earth... HOE... Your toiling the soil... The word Stay... Seek Truth About Yourself... You were told you came from the light... That's in heaven going back to heaven is to become as Jesus and be a son or daughter of God as Adam and Eve did in the beginning... Your start and where the first transgression occurred... Or you stay here in what is becoming Paradise ... You keep your body of Christ... Or you leave as you arrived stripped naked as the spirit you were before you progressed to your current form and shape...