Replacement for gunpowder.

The S has hit the fan in a big way. Your running from a group who wants your BOB. They want the ones on the backs of your family as well. You run through a short tunnel, take out your last can of Dupont 4350 powder, attach a wick to it, wait for the bad guys to enter the tunnel, light the wick, throw the can, boooooommmm, you saved your family.

Your wifey kisses you saying, "darling, your wonderful!" The kids are in awe of your talents. It is a really good day!


Um, your now out of powder. Your spare brass, 500 pills (projectiles) and 5,000 primers are all useless!

Spare brass you can collect. Projectiles you can make yourself easily. Primers are a bitch, but you stocked up on them, they don't take up a lot of room. But, you are out of powder.

Question! Can you reload with say Petrol / Gasoline. Think for a minute. You would not need much, i am guessing about five drops. The spare room in the brass has enough air (Oxygen) to enable the fuel to burn. Would it work at all, even as good as powder.

Your car runs on thousands of explosions per minute.

P

reply to post by pheonix358


I suggest that if you run out of gunpowder, you switch to plasma pellets, they are modern and easy to get.


Seriously, do yourself a favor and calculate the energy contained in a "few drops of gasoline", than compare it with what's stored in the volume of powder, in a typical cartridge. Call me in the morning.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
reply to post by pheonix358

 

I suggest that if you run out of gunpowder, you switch to plasma pellets, they are modern and easy to get.


Seriously, do yourself a favor and calculate the energy contained in a "few drops of gasoline", than compare it with what's stored in the volume of powder, in a typical cartridge. Call me in the morning.

If I knew how to do that I would already of done it!

I am asking because I do not know the answer.

P

reply to post by pheonix358


Maybe something like this

Though I doubt it would be any easier to find or manufacture than regular gun powder......Perhaps if you have a bit of Tony Stark in you, you could make some sort of powerful, yet portable coil/rail gun.


Honestly though, I'd imagine your best bet would be to learn to use and make a bow and arrow!

buy a cross bow with a 100 bolts you'd be set for a long time

sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter (potassium nitrate)
play around with those

75 parts saltpeter with 15 parts charcoal and 10 parts sulfur

reply to post by pheonix358

Fair enough that you are asking in pure, open, curiosity to learn. As a reloader myself, I think the answer is simply, No. You cannot substitute powder. Now, having said that ... Let me add, someone who is expert well beyond me in ballistics and the theories behind everything at a science level of understanding could probably make it work without blowing up TOO many guns in the process ..or destroying too many barrels by short rounds that eventually won't clear without irreparable harm to the barrels they stop in.

Sample Reloading Data for 9mm

Those numbers range from 4.7 grains to 8.5 grains (How the heck you compress load 8.5 into a 9mm casing is beyond me... VERY VERY gently? lol).

Grains to Grams - What the numbers mean

That chart shows how FINE a difference a 0.10th of a grain can be. Weight wise? It's an exceptionally small difference. a couple FLAKES of powder, depending on powder type. Getting just the powder type wrong for putting 8 grains in where 4.7 was called for will almost certainly blow your gun to pieces right in your hand.

Here are a few pics of what that looks like.







It's only going to destroy the gun (and not your hand or more) if you're lucky and it's a very well constructed firearm.

I love reloading ..but I'll be the first to say, it's a hobby of precision and exacting tolerances. Measurements are by micrometer. Just the difference in the label on a can of powder can make the above effect .... and to imagine trial and error with something untested? Well, I'd wish ya luck, leave you alone and figure I may or may not see you without life changing injury when next we met.

Hope that helps.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
and this is why i went to black powder 50g to 100 g down a 50cal. will do the job, and no a 100g is not that bad out of a 50, no more so then a 7mm mag or a hot 30 06, 75g will drop just about anything form deer to elk not recommend for a goober bear, that's a Grizzly for you that do not know.
Might just give him a headache if it's a head shot.

54cal. might drop him but that's a different load and ball, er bullet. A 45cal. pistol, no more than 35g, 40g is pushing it!!! I do want to get a 50cal. pistol 50g 50cal. will drop most game. but the draw back is you get one shot, miss and but the time your loaded and aimed the dinner is in the next county

I like to use a .22 10 pump air rifle for small eats anything smaller then a goose out to 40 yards
very light, very quiet, no smoke, and cheap abundant pellets
at some point I should make a pellet mold but with a case of cans maybe not...
under 500 FPS so no paper work needed

now for shooting people
nope
I just don't want to do it...

Batteries are a good source of sulfur and the lead has antimony in it which makes the soft lead more suitable for bullets
I already recondition lead acid marine batteries with epsom salts - works great on suitable batteries
as in the old british empire where your urine belonged to the state for the saltpeter (peter the rock, your peter )
it is a realitivley simple reclaimation
and charcoal is as common as dirt

I have been wondering if vulcanised sulfur treated rubber in tires might be suitable for powder...just a thought

I watched a vid once of nusance tiger hunters in India
They scraped the body of saftey matches into the shift column (three on the tree ) from an old car
Used the scratch tip for primer
Plumbers lead for the bullet
I forget the ignition, but one could be creative
and carved a stock

When you're out of gun powder then you improvise.

Here's a homemade airsoft gun that I wouldn't want to be shot with.



There is a around 40 pounds of air pressure in a car tire and up to 80lbs in some pickup trucks that could be used with this type of airgun. I don't imagine you would want to run around with a tire on your back so it could easily transferred from a tire to an air tank.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
good pix of when things go bad , hope they where not yours?? in my other post I should have said: you can not put smokeless down a black, nor black for smokeless the Black does not have the umph for a copper bullet, lead may be 45 -70 Gov. uses them, so a 06 would in theory use 50 g and a 30 cal lead bullet.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Thanks for that. I do understand reloading and have reloaded myself in the distant past. I had a Sako .243 with a Varmit Barrel, Good rifle!

The reason I am asking is because I know how stupid it would be to try and get real world experience.

My question at the conceptual level is why can we not use a liquid instead of a solid in firearms.

There is little information on energy release of powders. Everything is centered on either weight (Grains) or volumetric measurements. There is very little on energy release.

The big question would be more to the point of, is the energy release of various liquids of the type suitable for a firearm ie the difference between a high explosive and a slow explosive. The other question is how much fuel would you need.

Mankind started with gunpowder and all following developments have been restricted to powder forms.

So I am asking, what about a liquid.

P

reply to post by pheonix358


Hmmm... Well, I'll leave it for others on liquid then if it's that specifically. I can't imagine a way to make that work, personally. Not within the other components of a cartridge. I mean, the most obvious issue is why you see red "paint" around the primers of some military ammunition and particularly old Russian or cheap Wolf ammo. Water proofing. If the primer gets wet, it's not so good anymore. How would you solve that without blocking the fire it needs to send into the propellant (Liquid)?

Just spitballing, but I suppose you could work out amount to energy with math and give it a whirl if the primer issue could be solved. (I think I'd still take a stand a 100 yards or so away with a medical pack )

@Bekod

No.. Not mine. I got those off the net. Somewhere on my computer I have a shot of a .357 hot load that badly misfired though. S&W makes some pretty fine revolvers though and I had that Model 19 checked out carefully with no signs of damage. (whew)

I can also say the M-14 Rifle is one outstanding piece of craftsmanship ....since my Father fired what he and the state investigator estimated was a full double charge without being injured. It destroyed the rifle (Which the factory very generously replaced...sure didn't have to). That one actually made local news for a little 20 second blip, as range accidents around here are pretty rare. I've got pics of that around here somewhere too.

reply to post by pheonix358


thank you for starting this thread, i have TONS of brass and primers and i know the first thing i will run out of is powder... i was planning on making a thread like this but it wont let me because of my low posts

star for you!

I highly reccomend looking into air rifles with hand pump. Granted, some of these may take a while to pump, but once its filled you can get 30-50 shots out of it. Take a look at the link below for an idea of the price on some of them:

www.rlairgunsupply.com...


Now, I will link a youtube video showing you that these are not what you think when the word "air gun" comes to mind. Some of these air guns can take down the Big 5, not to mention they are extremely quiet, and have zero muzzle flash or smoke. Please see below for link showing damage and accuracy of a .50 Caliber air rifle:

www.youtube.com...

Gasoline would not work to fire a bullet from a gun.

The reason gasoline works to move pistons in a motor is because it's highly compressed before being ignited. It also mixed with large amounts of air. Gasoline doesn't burn, gasoline fumes burn. Which means you would need to turn the gasoline into a vapor in order for it to "explode" There is nowhere near enough space for air inside a shell casing to allow this to happen.

Gunpowder contains it's own oxygen supply basically, it doesn't need outside air in order to fire. It's far far more energy dense than any sort of petrol product. There is really nothing that exists which could simply be used in place of gunpowder with traditional shell casings and firearms.

Now, you could probably build something totally different than a firearm that could use gasoline or some sort of other combustible fluid, but it would likely pale in comparison to a real firearm, and would probably be even more difficult to maintain a long term supply of fuel for than having a long term supply of gunpowder.

Either learn to make powder, and figure out beforehand where the components can be naturally sourced in your area, or learn how to use a bow and arrow. Those are really your only viable options other than stocking up on massive amounts of powder.

reply to post by pheonix358
the Gov did try that with some poor success it was a cannon for a tank thinking they could go smokeless and not use powder but a liquid for the propellent, not sure of what they used or if it is on the web well what you know it is still up here is the link yarchive.net... form the link short but give you the info as to whom and what

From: [email protected] (John Canning)
Date: Sep 8 1991

The concept of using a liquid propellant in guns is not a
new one. I have worked here at the Naval Surface Warfare Center
at Dahlgren, VA - the Navy's primary gun technology laboratory -
for over twenty years. (Please, no comments regarding the IOWA
incident. I wasn't involved in that affair, and couldn't comment
on it even if I wanted to, which I don't.) I know that research
work on liquid gun propellants has been going on for about as
long as I've been here, maybe longer. There have been a number of
programs, but none has panned out to date. Since hope springs
eternal, there is still work going on, but I won't comment on
them either for a number of reasons - not the least of which is
that I've got a wife, three kids, and a dog that look to me to
keep them clothed (The dog wears a sweater in snow.) housed, and
fed, and the government has a lien on certain sensitive portions
of my anatomy regarding breaches in security.

it is a long read but interesting the main point is good luck if you do it let the Navy or Darpa know, you'll be rich as of now there are no LP here is the crusader and its history www.globalsecurity.org... good luck you might be the one to do it.

Thank you for all the replies.

So the general answer is no! OK, was just wondering if it would work.

I learnt a great deal. Thanks again

P

I'm fairly certain that gasoline has significantly more energy per gram than black powder or even nitro-cellulose type smokeless powder but the catch is that it has to be vaporised (or a mist of very fine particles) and mixed with 14 times its volume of air (uncompressed) to be explosive.

Black powder is very simple to make and has been produced for centuries with little more than a couple of rocks for tools. Making good BP takes a lot of time and patience though.