Infinity vs creationism

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
Wow, you went line by line of what OP wrote and just basically responded "Nuh-uh" to all of it.

I was merely pointing out parts that had either claims that were not true, contradictory, not clear or simply nonsensical. That it happened to be almost every sentence is not much I can do about.

I'm not even sure you have ever even pondered infinity...

What is there to ponder about infinity? It's a straight-forward concept.
Or are you talking about something specific, like the size of our universe?

He made some very good points.

Name one?

reply to post by Nevertheless


So basically you're saying you don't think there is such a thing as infinity.

Originally posted by dentsinger
So basically you're saying you don't think there is such a thing as infinity.

No, I don’t think anyone is saying that. However, you are trying to paint infinity as something it is not. Perhaps, in one sentence define infinity and then check the Oxford English dictionary to see whether you are anywhere near the mark.

Regards

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

What is perfection? It is easier to determine what is not perfect. When man has shown a history of deceit, murder, lying and manipulation, ulterior motives are possible, especially when it comes to universal truths in religion.

Religion always points to man made documents as the source of faith, saying they are the words of god. So no more proof is needed for the religious beside the bible, Quran, tora, or whatever faith you associate with. Hence my distrust of what religious men claim to be the truth.

Next, you say that god is infinite. I didn't say that. That is something yet to be debated. I don't want to get into a tangential debate until we ascertain the truth to what infinity is. That infinity can be seen as an existing truth regardless if whether mankind existed to contemplate it in the first place.

Nice quote. I've read it before and have always focused on the line, "the stuff that we don't know that we don't know" being the basis for ignorance. We must always try to break through that barrier of ignorance for inifinty provides that there will always be another question to answered.

It could be argued that these religious texts have been misinterpreted by these imperfect humans and that is why it seems so ridiculous to you. One would have to examine the entire bible and try to make out all of its obscure sentences which I'm sure priests don't even comprehend. The stories of the bible were written thousands of years ago when language was probably very different. Then these stories were translated and lost even more of their meaning through translation. We don't really know what this book is trying to tell us, but the way people use this book to make their religious claims creates the problem.

I believe infinity to exist regardless of whether mankind existed to contemplate it. We didn't contemplate dark matter 500 years ago and yet it existed so why would infinity be any different? I'm sure you believe infinity to exist regardless of human existence, unless i'm wrong??

There's nothing better than trying to break through that barrier of ignorance

reply to post by paraphi


Dictionaries define words with other words. If you ever really wanted to know the "definition" of a word you would end up going full circle until you got back to your original word. Dictionary is no help

reply to post by moonbeam1989


You are correct. I hold a stance that infinity exists regardless of the existence of mankind to contemplate it.
Yes, the words and stories from the bible are old, translated and from a different time when mankind may have observed the world around them differently than we do. Were they simply grappling with the concept of a superior being and writing about it or is there true historical truth to it all?

To make my observation, I'm simply trying to start with a universal truth to base all other observations on

My universal truth, the variable I can trust to be a truth, is infinity.

Let me explain again why I come to this conclusion.


Thought experiment:

Let's say we figuratively put everything in existence into a box. In order for that box to take shape as a 6 sided construct, we have essentially created boundaries to what is inside the box and what is outside the box.

What is outside the box is the continuation of infinity whether it be infinite solid, space or matter interspersed with space.

Infinity therefore cannot be bounded and cannot be measured. No limit exists as well as no point of origin. Infinity has always been infinite.

Now due to the universal truth that is infinity and I say that to mean that we can always trust infinity to be the quality of infinite, we can then know that infinity is a quality that can be applicable to an infinite number of qualities.

Infinitely large
Infinitely small
Infinite time
Infinite space
Infinite matter
Infinite levels of intelligence or life forms
Infinite forms of energy
On and on because infinity has room for everything.

Infinity has its concept and function in mathematics, but I think infinity proves itself to exist in the physical realm as well.

If infinity is limited, then educate me on the word that is that which is beyond infinity. If this is so, then our definition of infinity is incorrect.

Originally posted by paraphi

Originally posted by dentsinger
So basically you're saying you don't think there is such a thing as infinity.

No, I don’t think anyone is saying that. However, you are trying to paint infinity as something it is not. Perhaps, in one sentence define infinity and then check the Oxford English dictionary to see whether you are anywhere near the mark.

Regards

Definition of infinity noun (plural infinities)
1the state or quality of being infinite: the infinity of space an infinite or very great number or amount: an infinity of combinations a point in space or time that is or seems infinitely distant: the lawns stretched into infinity
2 Mathematics a number greater than any assignable quantity or countable number (symbol ∞).

All the above is true as far as their definition goes, but its a limited definition just to give someone a basic idea of what infinity is.
If you think the Oxford English Dictionary is the end all be all to defining infinity, then you have a very limited imagination.

Originally posted by dentsinger
reply to post by Nevertheless

 

So basically you're saying you don't think there is such a thing as infinity.

No, I'm not saying that.

Originally posted by Nevertheless

Originally posted by dentsinger
reply to post by Nevertheless

 

So basically you're saying you don't think there is such a thing as infinity.

No, I'm not saying that.

reply to post by dentsinger


God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

1.Why is man unreliable when it comes to the Bible, but reliable when interpreting infinite idea's?

2.With your ideas on infinity there is an existence somewhere, where you don't believe in infinity and believe in the bible. Would you agree?

3.If the Universe is expanding, it's not infinite. Would you agree?


Infinity is just an idea. It's the act of going on forever. From a natural scientific point of view, it's not real.

Now, God said to Moses, " I AM..." He's saying he's eternal. In my opinion, these concepts are beyond our understanding, which is supernatural.

I conclude you believe in God.

reply to post by addygrace


While there are sets of infinity, infinity will nonetheless continue whether there are layers, multiple universes, or dimensions. Infinity is non linear.

Infinity was conceptualized by man, not created by man. If man created infinity then man created the concept of god.

If infinity is inconceivable by man....so what does that say about mans concept or perception of a god figure?

If infinity is bounded and has a limitation of any particular quality, then that observed (or conceptualized) limitation is but a compartmentalization of infinity and infinity continues beyond the observed limit.

The presence of infinity is the presence of infinity in all concepts. Otherwise, there is no infinity. Setting a limit to what infinity applies to is the same as saying infinity has limits.

Our universe is but one of infinity. Using the box analogy, our universe is but one box of everything we have observed and know to be. Outside of that box are more universes.

Imagine an infinite pool of bubbles, some are popping into existence, some popping out of existence. This provides localized time lines of space/time to each bubble. The bubbles expand and contract but infinity remains infinite.

Our observable universe is roughly 14 billion years old and is expanding from a point of origin. That's fine and is concurrent with my definition of infinity. What is not fine is a 6000 year old universe. Our knowledge of the speed of light and dead stars light reaching us, radiometric and carbon dating, ice cores, geological strata, fossils and on and on all point to a much older existence.

Not knowing what we don't know is the basis for ignorance. Mankind breaks through the barrier of ignorance everyday in many ways.

According to what you're saying, space and time is not infinite because infinity has no relationship to space and time or apparently anything else unless you're talking about god. When god comes into the picture, then there is such a thing as infinity and since god is everything then the infinitive quality of god has to apply to everything that god concievably is.

Your proof is your faith which requires no proof but your faith

The concept of god is an anthropomorphized concept of mankinds grappling with the concept of a superior being. Infinity is simply an applicable quality.

I just wanted to mention that infinity is not a universal truth. You may consider it true, or believe it but that doesn't make it an absolute fact of the universe. Sure the word infinity exists and has a meaning, but that doesn't make it automatically true of the universe. We currently have way too little information on the universe to determine whether it is infinite or not. The universe is HUGE and incredibly vast, but I do not think it is infinite. There may be bazillions of universes out there, but logically there has to be a limit at some point. If our universe started with a big bang as science suggests, then it could not possibly be infinite, because the energy in the system will have limits.

Let's say we figuratively put everything in existence into a box. In order for that box to take shape as a 6 sided construct, we have essentially created boundaries to what is inside the box and what is outside the box.

What is outside the box is the continuation of infinity whether it be infinite solid, space or matter interspersed with space.

Infinity therefore cannot be bounded and cannot be measured. No limit exists as well as no point of origin. Infinity has always been infinite.

I fail to see the logic involved in saying that this proves infinity to be universal truth. So because you create your own box with your own limits, it suddenly means that everything outside of the box is infinite? Is it really? Are you sure that it's not just really big and you aren't just guessing about that? I agree that infinity can't be measured by definition.. but the universe had a beginning which goes against your "no point of origin" point. While the universe could be in infinite big bang loops or might go on forever, we have no evidence to suggest it at the moment due to our limit in technology. Right now, from what we see and measure, we can trace the universe to an origin point.

Infinitely large
Infinitely small
Infinite time
Infinite space
Infinite matter
Infinite levels of intelligence or life forms
Infinite forms of energy
On and on because infinity has room for everything.

How can something be infinitely small? Infinite is being used as a loose term, not an exact one in some of these cases. It is an exaggerated adjective used to describe small, but in reality infinitely small is a contradicting concept and is impossible. If it's infinite, it's not big or small. It's infinite.

Originally posted by Barcs
I just wanted to mention that infinity is not a universal truth. You may consider it true, or believe it but that doesn't make it an absolute fact of the universe. Sure the word infinity exists and has a meaning, but that doesn't make it automatically true of the universe. We currently have way too little information on the universe to determine whether it is infinite or not. The universe is HUGE and incredibly vast, but I do not think it is infinite. There may be bazillions of universes out there, but logically there has to be a limit at some point. If our universe started with a big bang as science suggests, then it could not possibly be infinite, because the energy in the system will have limits.

Let's say we figuratively put everything in existence into a box. In order for that box to take shape as a 6 sided construct, we have essentially created boundaries to what is inside the box and what is outside the box.

What is outside the box is the continuation of infinity whether it be infinite solid, space or matter interspersed with space.

Infinity therefore cannot be bounded and cannot be measured. No limit exists as well as no point of origin. Infinity has always been infinite.

I fail to see the logic involved in saying that this proves infinity to be universal truth. So because you create your own box with your own limits, it suddenly means that everything outside of the box is infinite? Is it really? Are you sure that it's not just really big and you aren't just guessing about that? I agree that infinity can't be measured by definition.. but the universe had a beginning which goes against your "no point of origin" point. While the universe could be in infinite big bang loops or might go on forever, we have no evidence to suggest it at the moment due to our limit in technology. Right now, from what we see and measure, we can trace the universe to an origin point.

Infinitely large
Infinitely small
Infinite time
Infinite space
Infinite matter
Infinite levels of intelligence or life forms
Infinite forms of energy
On and on because infinity has room for everything.

How can something be infinitely small? Infinite is being used as a loose term, not an exact one in some of these cases. It is an exaggerated adjective used to describe small, but in reality infinitely small is a contradicting concept and is impossible. If it's infinite, it's not big or small. It's infinite.

I explain and re explain but I'll just put it this way.

Lets say our universe is an immense sphere billions and billions of light years across composed of space and matter. We jump in our space craft capable of traveling large distances in little time. Our space craft reaches the edge of the universe. We'll even say that the space craft had to come to a stop because it appears our universe is contained by a wall of unknown thickness acting as the inner surface of the immense sphere that our universe is contained within.

We have scanning equipment on board to make our necessary observations of the thickness of our universal wall. You push the button to start the scanning.

Will the scanning reach completion and report back with the observation or will it continue to scan forever?


Also. Your thinking of infinity as only something expanding outwardly. You're thinking linear whereas infinity is non linear.

Originally posted by dentsinger
reply to post by addygrace

 

While there are sets of infinity, infinity will nonetheless continue whether there are layers, multiple universes, or dimensions. Infinity is non linear.

In this existence, infinity is not real, because we're limited by space and time.

Infinity was conceptualized by man, not created by man. If man created infinity then man created the concept of god.

Everything man thinks he knows was conceptualized by man.

If infinity is inconceivable by man....so what does that say about mans concept or perception of a god figure?

Everthing God is can't be perceived by man, on this Earth.

If infinity is bounded and has a limitation of any particular quality, then that observed (or conceptualized) limitation is but a compartmentalization of infinity and infinity continues beyond the observed limit.

Infinty can't be observed, at all.

The presence of infinity is the presence of infinity in all concepts. Otherwise, there is no infinity. Setting a limit to what infinity applies to is the same as saying infinity has limits.

Our universe is but one of infinity. Using the box analogy, our universe is but one box of everything we have observed and know to be. Outside of that box are more universes.

That's why Infinity isn't real in scientific terms. Infinity could certainly be real, but it can't be measured. Science needs to measure.

Imagine an infinite pool of bubbles, some are popping into existence, some popping out of existence. This provides localized time lines of space/time to each bubble. The bubbles expand and contract but infinity remains infinite.

Our observable universe is roughly 14 billion years old and is expanding from a point of origin. That's fine and is concurrent with my definition of infinity. What is not fine is a 6000 year old universe. Our knowledge of the speed of light and dead stars light reaching us, radiometric and carbon dating, ice cores, geological strata, fossils and on and on all point to a much older existence.

It isn't more plausible there are infinite bubble universes, than a Christian God. 14 Billion years says nothing about infinity. We haven't measured a 6000 year old universe so I totally agree the universe is around 14 billion years old.

Not knowing what we don't know is the basis for ignorance. Mankind breaks through the barrier of ignorance everyday in many ways.

According to what you're saying, space and time is not infinite because infinity has no relationship to space and time or apparently anything else unless you're talking about god. When god comes into the picture, then there is such a thing as infinity and since god is everything then the infinitive quality of god has to apply to everything that god concievably is.

I agree. I can't get around the fact that God is infinite.

Your proof is your faith which requires no proof but your faith

The concept of god is an anthropomorphized concept of mankinds grappling with the concept of a superior being. Infinity is simply an applicable quality.

Infinity is where God is. Immeasurable. Once you can measure infinity, it becomes not infinity anymore.

Just to add, everything we observe in our universe is finite. Why make the assumption that everything is infinite? I don't understand your position. Are you saying, because we know of the concept of infinity, it means this concept is a universal truth? What are you basing your idea(everything is infinite) on?

Originally posted by addygrace
Just to add, everything we observe in our universe is finite. Why make the assumption that everything is infinite? I don't understand your position. Are you saying, because we know of the concept of infinity, it means this concept is a universal truth? What are you basing your idea(everything is infinite) on?

By definition and and use of paradoxes, he has proven infinity to exist. That is not a physical truth but a thoeretical truth.

There is no way the Hotel paradox can be observed, tested and studied.

The definition infinity only describes the meaning/intent of the word(s). infinity has not been observed, tested or studied. It is ongoing.

Originally posted by dentsinger
I explain and re explain but I'll just put it this way.

Lets say our universe is an immense sphere billions and billions of light years across composed of space and matter. We jump in our space craft capable of traveling large distances in little time. Our space craft reaches the edge of the universe. We'll even say that the space craft had to come to a stop because it appears our universe is contained by a wall of unknown thickness acting as the inner surface of the immense sphere that our universe is contained within.

We have scanning equipment on board to make our necessary observations of the thickness of our universal wall. You push the button to start the scanning.

Will the scanning reach completion and report back with the observation or will it continue to scan forever?

Also. Your thinking of infinity as only something expanding outwardly. You're thinking linear whereas infinity is non linear.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how a hypothetical trip to the edge of the universe for a hypothetical scan shows infinity to be a universal truth. I know what infinity means. I'm not thinking linear. I'm thinking, 'where's the evidence?' I know the concept of infinity exists as defined by man, but I see no reason to think that everything or anything is infinite.

We have a universe. It had a beginning. There is no infinity.

" In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth..." Genesis 1:3 KJV.

The universe is not 6,000 years old which is what those who try to debunk God try to use as a prop for an argument. The Bible does not say the age of the universe. Nor does it say how long the beginning was before man rejected God for power and time entered the equation. The Bible gives the genealogy from Adam on down as the Bible is about mankind and not about dinosaurs etc. Nor does it deny such ever existed.

In the end, the Bible says that the heavens will disappear. Science says that the expanding universe will one day rip itself to shreds and vanish away.

Hmmmm......

Nope ! No infinity here.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by addygrace
Just to add, everything we observe in our universe is finite. Why make the assumption that everything is infinite? I don't understand your position. Are you saying, because we know of the concept of infinity, it means this concept is a universal truth? What are you basing your idea(everything is infinite) on?

By definition and and use of paradoxes, he has proven infinity to exist. That is not a physical truth but a thoeretical truth.

There is no way the Hotel paradox can be observed, tested and studied.

The definition infinity only describes the meaning/intent of the word(s). infinity has not been observed, tested or studied. It is ongoing.

How has he done this? That doesn't make the universe infinite. Or everything infinite. I don't ascribe to the idea, that everything that is possible is probable. He's actually saying everything that's possible is a fact.

Originally posted by addygrace

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by addygrace
Just to add, everything we observe in our universe is finite. Why make the assumption that everything is infinite? I don't understand your position. Are you saying, because we know of the concept of infinity, it means this concept is a universal truth? What are you basing your idea(everything is infinite) on?

By definition and and use of paradoxes, he has proven infinity to exist. That is not a physical truth but a thoeretical truth.

There is no way the Hotel paradox can be observed, tested and studied.

The definition infinity only describes the meaning/intent of the word(s). infinity has not been observed, tested or studied. It is ongoing.

How has he done this? That doesn't make the universe infinite. Or everything infinite. I don't ascribe to the idea, that everything that is possible is probable. He's actually saying everything that's possible is a fact.

If you read up on what i said, you will see that i said: by definition. A definition doesn't prove anything. It only proves the meaning of a word. A meaning of a word doesn't prove the physical infinite.