Infinity vs creationism

The following is an excerpt from a debate between a creationist and I.

Creationist

Sources the bible as fact.
Believes everything was created roughly 6000 years ago.
Believes god created everything.

ME

Man is inherently not perfect, therefore man cannot be trusted.
Believes the bible is a product of man.
Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

ME

I never really considered myself an atheist but I do have a stance against religion. I have no problem with a God existing, but I have a problem with the biblical definition of God.

Q. Did God create everything?
Q. How would you define the concept of infinity?

CREATIONIST

Well...I'm no C.S. Lewis but I'll do my best! 1. God created everything that we are aware of and capable of understanding. 2. Infinity is a human construct that attempts to explain that which is beyond the limits of what our minds are capable of understanding. I am not a fan of 'religion'. To me, it is nothing more than a set of rules of behavior that give people meaning and a false sense of security. True Christianity is not about religion or following rules that earn us a place at the table. Christianity is about accepting a savior who gave it all for us, and then choosing to live a life that would glorify Him. Not because we are earning anything, but because we never could and never have to. 'Religion' leads us down dark paths because it results in pride. Pride that allows people to justify all sorts of atrocities. That's my two cents on the subject.

ME

I agree on your stance on religion, at least what you've presented so far. I'm not going to debate the validity of any particular religion because the basis for each, regardless of its rules and traditions, is man made (a fact I know you probably want to debate). Therefore, anything man made is not trustworthy to be a universal constant. The most irrefutable universal constant is the concept of infinity itself. It may have been man that came up with words to try to define the concept, but infinity itself is not man made. Infinity is not just a direction, a never ending set of numbers, or the unimaginably small or large. It is everything, never ending and therefore never beginning. Infinity has always been here. If we are to imagine the physical construct of infinity, there are:

Infinite amounts of space
Infinite amounts of mass
Infinite amounts of energy
Infinite forms of consciousness
Infinite infinity...

According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, all matter and energy is in a state of entropy which basically states everything is in a state of change from one form of mass or energy into another. This supports our known concept of infinity.

According to the law of conservation of energy, mass and energy can neither be created or destroyed. It is merely transformed. Once again this supports our known concept of infinity. Now you may be thinking, well science is man made so how can you use scientific laws to define that which we don't really know. I think of science like this. Science is a method of observation to get the best answers possible given all the data obtainable using the method. Science is not a belief, it is a tool. Just like a hammer was made to do its job as a tool, it is trustworthy to use for the job until a better hammer comes along. A hammer doesnt need belief to do its job.

While science may not provide exactly correct answers in universal matters, science provides localized truths that point us in the direction of the next best question to ask that will either support or negate previous findings. So given all this science stuff, I think there are an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of planets and stars and levels of intelligent consciousness. My infinity includes the infinite possibility of God. But my definition of God is not one that requires worship, nor does it require antiquated stories of early mans grasping with a higher power or consciousness. Science is simply a proverbial tool to observe the inner workings of how infinities computer works.

So, maybe I do believe in God afterall or maybe I just know that infinity exists which requires no belief. To exchange the words Infinity for God may work for some, but it also may be a misnomer. Infinity simply IS. God, or at least mans biblical concept of God is an anthropomorphism of mankinds ultimate identity of a superior being. One that is concerned over human matters and sometimes makes an appearance to give change to life on earth.

CREATIONIST

I mostly agree with you, although I still maintain that infinity is a human construct. It is an attempt to put that which is beyond ourselves into concept that we can understand. I think there is probably much more to it than what you have described. I also agree with the purpose of science. It is a tool we use to try to understand the world around us. So for the most part, I believe we agree on the science. And you seem open-minded enough to accept that there may be a God. So we agree on that. Given no other information, I think that you and I would see eye-to-eye. Where we seem to part ways is when the Bible comes into play. Many don't seem to want to accept that an intelligent and reasonably well-educated person can understand and accept the tools that science has to offer and still accept the Bible as truth. The two can co-exist. So where the inherent limitations of the tools of science fail to provide answers, the Bible provides them.

ME

Ok, so lets say infinity is a human concept and a flawed one at that. Trust me, I've meditated on comprehending what infinity means for many years. It's just a fact that some people have never really thought enough about what infinity means to be able to start comprehending. Understanding infinity is what I'm teaching my children. With that said, can you tell me where my explanation of infinity fails?

If infinity is not a constant, then there is no such thing as infinity as it is defined. If there is no such thing as infinity, then space and time is bounded. If space and time is bounded, then what exists beyond that which is bounded? If we could figuratively fit everything God created into a box, then what is it that exists outside of that figurative box? For there to be a box, there must be boundaries indicating the three dimensional shape of a box, and for there to be boundaries there must be more space whether solid or aether surrounding the box. Infinity is that which is boundless.

When creationists joke about atheists claiming that nothing came from nothing, the joke is actually that they're unknowingly describing infinity. Nothing equals zero. Zero is the mathematical equivalent to the forever absolute of the existence of nothing. Zero = infinity. Interesting how zero is designated as 0 which is the circle. No beginning no end, yet there is a cycle. Man created the symbol relating to the concept of nothing, but the absolute that is zero has always existed just as infinity has always existed and therefore can not be measured. This makes it a universal constant to base all other observations upon.

The creationist never wrote back.

Science has little to do with your beliefs. Hopefully he/she did not take it as you were talking on behalf of science.

Originally posted by Nevertheless
Science has little to do with your beliefs. Hopefully he/she did not take it as you were talking on behalf of science.

As I already stated in the text above, science is merely a tool. It's not something that requires a belief in for facts to exist. Facts reside outside the existence of the tool. Infinity is one of those universal constants. Or did I not understand what you were saying?

Originally posted by dentsinger
Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

Infinity is not a constant.

Therefore, anything man made is not trustworthy to be a universal constant.

This is false. But fine, if you say so...

The most irrefutable universal constant is the concept of infinity itself.

This is a man-made concept made for man - and according to you, not trustworthy, then.

It may have been man that came up with words to try to define the concept, but infinity itself is not man made.

This is like listening to a religious person say "Sure, the man saw God, but God isn't man-made."

Infinity is not just a direction, a never ending set of numbers, or the unimaginably small or large. It is everything, never ending and therefore never beginning.

What? Infinity is Infinity. Not "everything" and definitely not "unimaginably small".

Infinite amounts of space

Really?

Infinite amounts of mass

As far as we know, no, there is not.

Infinite amounts of energy

As far as we know, no, there is not.

Infinite forms of consciousness

...what? Does that even mean anything?

Infinite infinity...

This definitely does not.

According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, all matter and energy is in a state of entropy which basically states everything is in a state of change from one form of mass or energy into another. This supports our known concept of infinity.

How exactly does this have to do anything with infinity - at all?

According to the law of conservation of energy, mass and energy can neither be created or destroyed. It is merely transformed. Once again this supports our known concept of infinity.

....?

Science is not a belief, it is a tool. Just like a hammer was made to do its job as a tool, it is trustworthy to use for the job until a better hammer comes along.

You forgot the most important part. To use it to hit nails, not to screw screws.

A hammer doesnt need belief to do its job.

But it requires knowledge on how to use it.

So given all this science stuff, I think there are an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of planets and stars and levels of intelligent consciousness.

"All this science stuff" does however not support those thoughts.
But it is perfectly fine to what you want - of course.

My infinity includes the infinite possibility of God. But my definition of God is not one that requires worship, nor does it require antiquated stories of early mans grasping with a higher power or consciousness. Science is simply a proverbial tool to observe the inner workings of how infinities computer works.

Your infinity, your God, his God.. It's all the same, no? Science does not help when it comes to opinions not supported by it.

So, maybe I do believe in God afterall or maybe I just know that infinity exists which requires no belief.

Religious people do not "believe" in God. They "know" that God exists.
So yes, maybe you do believe in God. Or at least you have a religious way of seeing things.

To exchange the words Infinity for God may work for some, but it also may be a misnomer. Infinity simply IS.

Just like God just IS for the person you talked to.

Somewhere here my characters ended.
Maybe it's enough.

reply to post by dentsinger

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

According to the law of conservation of energy, mass and energy can neither be created or destroyed

There is a perfectly good reason why energy cannot not disappear. That is because of the infinite space.

Since energy is not infinite "time" energy must have been formed.

reply to post by Nevertheless


Wow, you went line by line of what OP wrote and just basically responded "Nuh-uh" to all of it. I'm not even sure you have ever even pondered infinity...

He made some very good points.

All you've essentially done is poke a stick at my words so I'll focus on one thing you've stated.

"infinity is not a constant"

Explain to me why infinity is not a constant. Maybe you're zoning in on the mathematical definition of what a constant is? Infinity is not just math, but math can be incorporated to help appreciate infinity. So explain to me what infinity is.........

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not "created by man"...observed and studied.

Life may be "finite" in terms that there is a death, but that matter goes on to fascilitate something else gain life.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not "created by man"...observed and studied.

Life may be "finite" in terms that there is a death, but that matter goes on to fascilitate something else gain life.

Okay. it is studied and written down by man.
So is religion. Religion is to believe, or to have faith in someone elses experience. Some are even observed and studied.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

I refer to infinity as a constant by meaning that it is a universal truth. If infinity is that which cannot be bound, then it can be trusted to always be that way. The finite became acknowledged because we as humans deal in concepts that our forming brains can handle. So someone poked a hole in the sand and lifted a finger to show there was a relationship. Then he poked two holes in the sand and lifted two fingers. It wasn't til much longer down the road when man comprehended the concept of zero or nothing.



When you say "all information we know of is created by man", just by adding the words "we know of" is a disqualification to "all Information". Therefore all information is not created by man.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by Chamberf=6

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Not "created by man"...observed and studied.

Life may be "finite" in terms that there is a death, but that matter goes on to fascilitate something else gain life.

Okay. it is studied and written down by man.
So is religion. Religion is to believe, or to have faith in someone elses experience. Some are even observed and studied.

Religion is not to believe, it is to BE believed or to have FAITH in. Faith is the furthest thing away from being a universal truth there can be. Faith requires no proof, therefore anyone can spout off any belief, sourcing any story they want, and its all good to them.

Originally posted by dentsinger

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

I refer to infinity as a constant by meaning that it is a universal truth. If infinity is that which cannot be bound, then it can be trusted to always be that way. The finite became acknowledged because we as humans deal in concepts that our forming brains can handle. So someone poked a hole in the sand and lifted a finger to show there was a relationship. Then he poked two holes in the sand and lifted two fingers. It wasn't til much longer down the road when man comprehended the concept of zero or nothing.



When you say "all information we know of is created by man", just by adding the words "we know of" is a disqualification to "all I formation". Therefore all information is not created by man.

Infinite amounts of space
Infinite amounts of mass
Infinite amounts of energy
Infinite forms of consciousness
Infinite infinity...

How do you get these to add up?

1. Infinite amount of space.
2. Infinite amount of mass.

Just out of curiosity. Can we have a infinite amount of mass without the infinite amount of space?

When you say "all information we know of is created by man", just by adding the words "we know of" is a disqualification to "all I formation". Therefore all information is not created by man.

I guess saying created to you people is non scientific. So my bad.
What if i say written down and logged by man. Is that more acceptable?

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by dentsinger

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

If the infinite is a true constant. How did finite get formed?

A infinite "constant" does not change.

- All information we know of is created by man.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

I refer to infinity as a constant by meaning that it is a universal truth. If infinity is that which cannot be bound, then it can be trusted to always be that way. The finite became acknowledged because we as humans deal in concepts that our forming brains can handle. So someone poked a hole in the sand and lifted a finger to show there was a relationship. Then he poked two holes in the sand and lifted two fingers. It wasn't til much longer down the road when man comprehended the concept of zero or nothing.



When you say "all information we know of is created by man", just by adding the words "we know of" is a disqualification to "all I formation". Therefore all information is not created by man.

Infinite amounts of space
Infinite amounts of mass
Infinite amounts of energy
Infinite forms of consciousness
Infinite infinity...

How do you get these to add up?

1. Infinite amount of space.
2. Infinite amount of mass.

Just out of curiosity. Can we have a infinite amount of mass without the infinite amount of space?

When you say "all information we know of is created by man", just by adding the words "we know of" is a disqualification to "all I formation". Therefore all information is not created by man.

Y
I guess saying created to you people is non scientific. So my bad.
What if i say written down and logged by man. Is that more acceptable?

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

How did I get those to add up? That's the paradox of infinite sets. Read up on Hilberts paradox of the grand hotel:

en.wikipedia.org...'s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

Since there can be an infinite amount of vacancies, there can be an infinite number of guests. Also there are an infinite number of sets of infinity. So infinite space isn't necessarily occupied by infinite mass. I don't have one problem with the word creation and I'm not taking your typical science vs creationism stance. But when you change your words to written down and logged, it totally changes the context of what you originally stated.

Just out of curiosity. Can we have a infinite amount of mass without the infinite amount of space?

Please quit adding questions to your posts, I can't keep looking back to see if you changed anything.

To answer your question:

I think the answer is plausibly yes. As I stated in the thought experiment about putting everything created or existing into a box, there would have to be walls to form the shape of the box. Then there would have to be more infinite space or infinite matter surrounding said box. What we've observed so far is that there is matter interspersed with space.

reply to post by dentsinger

How did I get those to add up? That's the paradox of infinite sets. Read up on Hilberts paradox of the grand hotel:

en.wikipedia.org...'s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

Since there can be an infinite amount of vacancies, there can be an infinite number of guests. Also there are an infinite number of sets of infinity. So infinite space isn't necessarily occupied by infinite mass. I don't have one problem with the word creation and I'm not taking your typical science vs creationism stance. But when you change your words to written down and logged, it totally changes the context of what you originally stated.

Here is a paradox:
I would assume that the hotel would be absolute empty before the guests arrive.
Where did the guest arrive from?

If the hotel is a infinite empty space it would take up all space possible. If that is the case, were would the guests come from to vacate the hotel?

Does the hotel produce its own guests? If so how.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Here is a paradox:
I would assume that the hotel would be absolute empty before the guests arrive.
Where did the guest arrive from?

The hotel paradox is a viridical paradox meant to encourage critical thinking. It is not for me to prove the paradox for you.

Originally posted by dentsinger

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by dentsinger

 

Here is a paradox:
I would assume that the hotel would be absolute empty before the guests arrive.
Where did the guest arrive from?

The hotel paradox is a viridical paradox meant to encourage critical thinking. It is not for me to prove the paradox for you.

Its okay. You dont have to prove anything to me. I am responsible for my own critical thinking and reaching my own conclusions.

I am not here to change your mind. Only to encourage critical thinking. You have to come up with the answers your self. Just like i had to.

reply to post by spy66


So if you already know the answers, then define infinity or does my definition suit it well?

Before I begin my post here is the disclaimer: I'm new to ATS and I do like having intellectual discussions, I've been interested in philosophy for years and have definitely sat down to think about WAY TOO MANY questions lol. That being said, I don't disagree with your viewpoint on infinity but I would like to give my humble opinion on a few of your statements:

ME

Man is inherently not perfect, therefore man cannot be trusted.

Believes the bible is a product of man.

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

1. What is perfection? Is your view of perfection the same as mine? If it is not, then who's view of perfection should we take as the correct view? Also if man is inherently not perfect, therefore he can't be trusted, and since you are a man then I can't trust you when you say that man is inherently not perfect ''

2. I have the same belief about this.

3. Looks like you've found your concept of "god". I used to be an atheist but a couple of years ago while pondering many questions about life I had an inclination to start becoming "spiritual" which is different from "religious". Spirituality has helped me grow intellectually, emotionally, and also as a human being. Religion always made me question many things that I never got answers to, or if I did get answers they were the answers that other people had come up with and not my own. Your concept of infinity reminds me of my step towards spirituality in that you are becoming aware of the vastness and greatness that surrounds you that is so inexplicable, so ineffable, and mind-blowingly amazing. Kudos to you for thinking outside the box, don't forget to spread the love

ME

I never really considered myself an atheist but I do have a stance against religion. I have no problem with a God existing, but I have a problem with the biblical definition of God.

Q. Did God create everything?

Q. How would you define the concept of infinity?

1. Let's use your concept of infinity to answer this. Since "God" is infinite, there's no beginning or end thus no moment of creation, just infinite being.

2. I would need an infinite amount of words to define it and an infinite amount of time to put the words in order, not to mention that it would take you then an infinite amount of time to read my definition

Haha now an answer that doesn't blow my mind: Infinity is everything and then some and i'll leave you with a quote

"There's the stuff we know that we know
There's the stuff we know that we don't know
There's the stuff we don't know that we know
Then there's the stuff we don't know that we don't know"

Don't remember who said it, and its also paraphrased but I always like it... keeps me humble

Originally posted by moonbeam1989
Before I begin my post here is the disclaimer: I'm new to ATS and I do like having intellectual discussions, I've been interested in philosophy for years and have definitely sat down to think about WAY TOO MANY questions lol. That being said, I don't disagree with your viewpoint on infinity but I would like to give my humble opinion on a few of your statements:

ME

Man is inherently not perfect, therefore man cannot be trusted.

Believes the bible is a product of man.

Looks at infinity to be a true universal constant to base conclusions

1. What is perfection? Is your view of perfection the same as mine? If it is not, then who's view of perfection should we take as the correct view? Also if man is inherently not perfect, therefore he can't be trusted, and since you are a man then I can't trust you when you say that man is inherently not perfect '

'

2. I have the same belief about this.

3. Looks like you've found your concept of "god". I used to be an atheist but a couple of years ago while pondering many questions about life I had an inclination to start becoming "spiritual" which is different from "religious". Spirituality has helped me grow intellectually, emotionally, and also as a human being. Religion always made me question many things that I never got answers to, or if I did get answers they were the answers that other people had come up with and not my own. Your concept of infinity reminds me of my step towards spirituality in that you are becoming aware of the vastness and greatness that surrounds you that is so inexplicable, so ineffable, and mind-blowingly amazing. Kudos to you for thinking outside the box, don't forget to spread the love

ME

I never really considered myself an atheist but I do have a stance against religion. I have no problem with a God existing, but I have a problem with the biblical definition of God.

Q. Did God create everything?

Q. How would you define the concept of infinity?

1. Let's use your concept of infinity to answer this. Since "God" is infinite, there's no beginning or end thus no moment of creation, just infinite being.

2. I would need an infinite amount of words to define it and an infinite amount of time to put the words in order, not to mention that it would take you then an infinite amount of time to read my definition

Haha now an answer that doesn't blow my mind: Infinity is everything and then some and i'll leave you with a quote

"There's the stuff we know that we know
There's the stuff we know that we don't know
There's the stuff we don't know that we know
Then there's the stuff we don't know that we don't know"

Don't remember who said it, and its also paraphrased but I always like it... keeps me humble

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

What is perfection? It is easier to determine what is not perfect. When man has shown a history of deceit, murder, lying and manipulation, ulterior motives are possible, especially when it comes to universal truths in religion.

Religion always points to man made documents as the source of faith, saying they are the words of god. So no more proof is needed for the religious beside the bible, Quran, tora, or whatever faith you associate with. Hence my distrust of what religious men claim to be the truth.

Next, you say that god is infinite. I didn't say that. That is something yet to be debated. I don't want to get into a tangential debate until we ascertain the truth to what infinity is. That infinity can be seen as an existing truth regardless if whether mankind existed to contemplate it in the first place.

Nice quote. I've read it before and have always focused on the line, "the stuff that we don't know that we don't know" being the basis for ignorance. We must always try to break through that barrier of ignorance for inifinty provides that there will always be another question to answered.