Garment Factory collapse highlights dark side of Capitalism

reply to post by CB328



Another prime example of externalizing costs by BIG BUSINESS is the fire and explosion in Texas last week, That situation is also an example of Republican & Libertarian "Government is the Problem" thinking where in they don't believe in governance and so 'starve' the system so it can't work. There was no oversite of the plant, no inspections, nothing because of endless republican tax cuts (for the wealthy - not you and me) where there is no money in the budget to do anything for anyone. WE THE PEOPLE can no longer absorb the business communities COST OF DOING BUSINESS.

The OP is very right to point out this key point of BIG business Monolithic Monopolies - that the public can no longer pay for these costs.

Corporations where orginially formed to provide some protections for investers in endeavors that where riskly but ultmately for the common good.

People complain about the goverment - but the fact is we elect them - we are too stupid (as a group) to see through the lies and spin - maybe it's just laziness and we elect coporate tools because they are the only ones that get enough money to run and whoever has the biggest 'war chest' wins.

We will never have any say (remember the Supreme Court says money equals speech) as long as elections are privately financed. Pubically funded elections are the only hope we have and that's a pipe dream.

Originally posted by Maluhia
Watching the back and forth here, I must say human nature at it's finest! "I am right, you don't understand. No, I am right and you don't understand"

Maybe the trick is to try to understand without first believing we are right. Just a thought. Carry on.

edit on 26-4-2013 by Maluhia because: (no reason given)

It's that they don't listen. There is no desire for understanding, just being right. Would you rather be happy or be right? On ATS being obtuse is rewarded. 'Deny Ignorance' is the motto - think about it...... Just deny it..... like a three year-old caught in the cookie jar - if they say 'they didn't do it' enough they think it will make it real. Just deny, deny, deny or for chronological adults.... lie, lie, lie.

Heard some talk about the W's LIEbrary today

reply to post by FyreByrd


You are so right.

DEREGULATION. "Drown the government in a bathtub".

Makes me ill. But that is the mantra that has been drilled into everyones' head through cable news, hate radio, chain emails, right wing op eds in your newspaper, and the corporate takeover of our airwaves and print media. It is an illness. No one can think outside the box that they have been placed in. There is such a small minority that "gets it".

Yes we need public funding for elections. The corporate money has to be removed. I am afraid it is way too late to change the system. You yell and scream, and no one hears you.

reply to post by GrantedBail

Dear GrantedBail,

Thank you, and I agree with you, it certainly is complicated and sad.

You're right I may be missing your point. Your response tells me that the governments of Bangladesh and others, accept bribes and embezzle rather than protect their people. I believe that not only American companies know this, but the rest of the world does as well.

So how do we solve this sad situation? I doubt anyone has the stomach for a military overthrow of the corrupt regime. Perhaps the US government should apply economic sanctions to improve workers' conditions? But the leaders who make the decisions are rarely affected by sanctions (See North Korea).

Should American companies pull out of countries like Bangladesh, India, China? Will the workers get better conditions, or will they be fired? It may be that we do nothing because we haven't figured out what might help.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Aw, you are so sweet Charles. Thank you for your very respectful reply. Unfortunately I think it is our country that paved the way for exploitation in the third world. I would hope that you watch that documentary I put up in one of my earlier posts. It is really eye opening.

Is there a solution short of some alien invasion that would wipe these bastages out?? I think not. For now we just get to gripe on message boards and find like thinkers.

reply to post by GrantedBail


Reality Check:

The decline in manufacture of goods in the ENTIRE western world, has contributed to the situation as it stands. A well known, cut price clothing chain in the UK called Primark has been connected with the factory which collapsed, as well as being lambasted in the past by various organisations, for its use of manufacturing firms which do not give thier workers decent pay, nor protect thier work place safety.

And its important to realise that this is utterly the fault of the way a growth based economy works, on a decade by decade basis. In the UK we used to have a vibrant textile products market, and manufacturing to match. Entire towns would ring with the sound of industrial sewing machines, weaving machinery, the whole bit. And I am not talking about during the industrial revolution, but during the last century.

But, due to the fact that increased international trade caused increased competition, a number of things were done by various companies, to offset thier costs, so that they could keep high street prices affordable, or at least so they could still make VAST profits on goods sold. Because British workers demand (and rightly so) a good wage for the work they do, this pushed the manufacturing firms to move thier operations else where, or in some cases to sub contract them to foriegn firms completely, because workers in the developing world, were happy to work for next to nothing by our standards, under worse conditions and therefore costing less all round to the companies for whom they were working.

Also, both the raw materials and finished products having stopped being produced in the UK and Europe meant that the overall price of production per unit fell so much, that it changed the way that not only manufacturers, but consumers looked at clothing. Primark particularly, used to sell clothing so damned cheaply, that the consumer began to feel less proprietary about thier clothing. When a hole appeared in a seam, where one would normally head for the needle and thread, it was down to the high street we go to replace the whole garment. At one point, I remember going in there, and buying socks for less money than the needle and thread would have cost to fix my old ones.

This meant that a company which should have had to be MUCH smaller to continue to make profits, was able to continue to have a massive international footprint, while retaining cheap high street prices, therefore making thier products appealing to a massive market, while essentially creating the throwaway garment, and a whole new consumer ethos where clothing was concerned.

However, that came with a price, and it has now become more widely known that companies like Primark, and even many of the larger, more expensive clothing retailers, were using products made by what amounted to sweat shop labour. Now, while I am more than aware that the behavior of the retailers and manufacturers toward thier employees with regard to saftey is deplorable, from a pure, cold, mathematical and economical point of view, they really didnt have a choice in the matter.

The moment a cheaper workforce became available too them, they had a responsibility to those who had invested in thier company, to create GROWTH, and to continue to create it. They had no choice, it was a legal responsibility, because without growth, ones stocks plummet, and ones shareholders get angry, and one soon finds oneself out on ones ear. Growth based economies are BOUND to fail, because eventually price pressures force either quality to fail, or force the work out of those economies anyway, like the change from British manufacture of products for British markets, to the current state of affairs, where the only thing you can assume about any product bought in the western world, is that it is highly unlikely to have been built in its entirety, in the country from which it was purchased!

Wether you are talking about China, India, Bangladesh, or any other nation which offers Western businesses cheap labour, it is the obsession with growth, rather than stablility in economy these days, which drives the externalisation of costs, and if we really want an end to these appalling circumstances, then the way we think about economy in the West much change. Without that root change, there will be no reason for companies to employ people in proper working conditions, or to pay them an honest days pay, because the same forces which saw them elect to use cheap labour elsewhere, will still be in place.

Originally posted by Maluhia
Watching the back and forth here, I must say human nature at it's finest! "I am right, you don't understand. No, I am right and you don't understand"

Maybe the trick is to try to understand without first believing we are right. Just a thought. Carry on.

edit on 26-4-2013 by Maluhia because: (no reason given)

I don't think it is human nature, I think it is human's exhibiting their 'animal' natures. Why I say that is because they are not using the human parts of their nature, that with distiguishs them from animals.

Animals assert their wills by force in dominance games, human animals try to force their will by language (I can't call it communiction). Both are motivated by fear. Neither is truly human.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by GrantedBail

 

You're right I may be missing your point. Your response tells me that the governments of Bangladesh and others, accept bribes and embezzle rather than protect their people. I believe that not only American companies know this, but the rest of the world does as well.

I don't think it's an either/or situation. Bribes have a long cultural history, are not always direct (see Western democracies) and will not be done away with in a direct assult. I don't have the answer but know that attacking an existing situation directly only causes that system to fight back violently to restore the status quo. Change must approach from many different fronts and in small increments.

So how do we solve this sad situation? I doubt anyone has the stomach for a military overthrow of the corrupt regime. Perhaps the US government should apply economic sanctions to improve workers' conditions? But the leaders who make the decisions are rarely affected by sanctions (See North Korea).

It's an ethical problem not a political or military one and I agree with you that direct miliary or economic means will not improve the well-being of worker's in, frankly, any country.

Should American companies pull out of countries like Bangladesh, India, China? Will the workers get better conditions, or will they be fired? It may be that we do nothing because we haven't figured out what might help.

Now this is the tough one. A question I've discussed and argued with my conservative friends who have very good points and I've yet to decide. The two main arguments both are perfectly valid and reasonable.

1 - By doing business with 'evil' regimes we condone their actions (The Biblical 'brother's keeper' thing)
and
2 - By doing business with 'evil' regimes we expose them to 'democrary' and freedom (the Biblical call to carry the message).

I tend to lean towards #1 because, simply and without Biblical references (I can if you like), we (the west) need to get our own house in order before we can set a good example to others. What message do we carry to the rest of the world, except that cash is God. That message reinforces exploiting worker's and resources.

There is value in the conservative agrument of #2 but it is built on the erroneous premise that we (the west) hold some moral high ground and until we actually, in practise, do, it's a fallacy.

I welcome discussion on this topic and well as the orginal posts topic of externalized costs which cover a lot of ground.

It would be nice to have a Business/Ecomonic fourms for real discussion on these complex and important topics.




With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by GrantedBail


From an accounting standpoint, if you are not making intermittent purchases of 20 on a belt, or 60 on shoes, then you wisely accrue that to make higher quality purchases.

Regardless....the belt expense is morose. My 20 dollar belt has lasted me 2 years. The rest....i agree with. If you work in a professional environment then stains are likely not a concern. A good purchase of quality will last you a long time. Possibly, for suits above 10k, the rest of your life.

...and conservatives and corporations want to put an end to unions. Get rid of them and you'll see more of this cropping up in the U.S.. How many times do corporations in the U.S. try to side step OSHA safety concerns just to save a few bucks?

reply to post by WeRpeons



In America, for now....yes. Don't force them out...but don't let them require membership.

In foreign lands...that is for them to decide. The workers need to rise up. If they are willing to do that work, then they will do that work.

I see blame on both sides. Exploitation is wrong. But until these people are wiling to demand some proper treatment, what else do you do?

reply to post by CB328


Yeah hardcore capitalism. Like this sort of thing never happened in hardcore socialist countries like Soviet Russia, since they had such stringent environmental and worker safety regulations.

Originally posted by GrantedBail
reply to post by boncho

 

First off, I read your entire post. My conclusion still stands.

Most families have two working parents so there is no time for sewing their children's clothes. It appears you are oblivious to the daily grind of a home with children.

Who can afford to buy a 100$ sweater for a kid that it's not going to fit in 6 months?

Those items that you are advocating aren't affordable for most American's. It seems that their salaries haven't kept up with the prices of having some kind of life.

Is it their fault? Oh, yeah, everyone gathers on the corner on Saturdays to discuss how we are getting over on those ignoramouses by exploiting third world labor. It is always one of the topics of discussion at the neighborhood bbq.

Pfffft.

edit on 26-4-2013 by GrantedBail because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-4-2013 by GrantedBail because: (no reason given)

Unfortunately none of this is caused by Capitalism. Under Communism you simply wouldn't have the choice or the means.

you might be able to get some stuff on the Black Market, but of course those items come from the Capitalist society.

reply to post by FyreByrd


So just get rid of Republicans and Libertarians and all your problems will be solved, workers will have wonderful conditions, everyone will have Utopia, shorter hours, longer vacations, bigger pay, happy times....there will never be any accidents, the workers will all care about the job they are doing, everything will be built better because Democrats and liberals are so superior.


You're dreamin buddy

reply to post by GrantedBail

Aw, you are so sweet Charles. Thank you for your very respectful reply. Unfortunately I think it is our country that paved the way for exploitation in the third world.

This is either naïve or you just hate America because it's the cool liberal thing to do. Go to a third world country and you will soon see how fast these people will take anything you will give them. They come up to you with child in arms and and guilt you into giving them money for the child's medicine. The parents stand around at 8 oclock at night and watch the kids panhandle adult tourists.

They sweet talk you, they tell you stories, they just say, "Can I have your camera?".

I had one child come up behind me and hit me. Parents and adults all standing around watching.

Go to one of the temples there and they will demand 10 times the rupees from a wealthy American than they will their Hindi speaking counterparts.

They jump in front of you in line at the airport just because you are foreign and they deserve it.

Foreigners are charged more than locals at the museum in New Delhi.

This is all true based on my own travel experience.

So all this business about how evil Americans are is baloney.

Oh yes, and people come to the States from foreign countries and buy little camera shops and deliberately overcharge customers just because they can.

That is also a true story.

Don't be naïve.

reply to post by GrantedBail

DEREGULATION.

yep Barney Frank did a knock up job didn't he. He was in the oversight committee and said Fannie and Freddie was doing well, all the while he and his good buddy were skimming off the top. All this because Clinton "regulated" the banks into giving loans.

This shows what happens when the fox is in charge of the henhouse. No matter how many regulations you put in place someone makes off with the cash.

Michael Savage explained exactly what happened when they changed the uptick rules on trading. You can read about it in his book, "Trickle Up Poverty".

You see, the Globalists use regulations to ruin stuff and they use de-regulation as much as regulation.

I posted about this before

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Did I mention that Anna McMullen is an activist in the Green Party? An article on the World Socialist Web Site features her.

The party likes to present itself as a particularly radical exponent of Green politics. Its candidate in Easton, Anna McMullen, asserts, “Greens across Bristol have a track record of standing up for what matters…We are activists who are willing to speak up to protect public services, oppose the cuts, and make sure local voices get heard.”

www.wsws.org...

Here is somebody else's take on the collapse and on the article written by Ms. McMullen


godfatherpolitics.com...

There are some basic questions that need to be asked for us to have any intelligent opinion about the Bangladeshi workplace. The first one is: Is it a profitable business model for anyone to build a factory that is going to collapse and kill workers? Even if we assume that Bangladesh is missing the cadre of lawyers and the legal structure to sue the business and/or the building owner, is it really profitable in Bangladesh to build a structure that will collapse unexpectedly and kill workers? I am open to such a claim, but I can’t imagine it being true unless someone can show me some data. Right now someone who expected profits from their building has just lost them. Orders for products from that factory have now been transferred to other factories. The factories that have not collapsed are being rewarded with increased business.

Those poor people

reply to post by okyouwin


Look for local tailors and have it custom made to your specifications. As far as iPhones, no, don't have much of a choice. Clothing is very optional.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

So just get rid of Republicans and Libertarians and all your problems will be solved, workers will have wonderful conditions, everyone will have Utopia, shorter hours, longer vacations, bigger pay, happy times....there will never be any accidents, the workers will all care about the job they are doing, everything will be built better because Democrats and liberals are so superior.


You're dreamin buddy

edit on 28-4-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

That is not what I said at all. Do you know the classical definition of 'Liberal'? A liberal believes in a society/system/world were every idea, goal and belief can contribute to social success. What a liberal seeks to avoid is a society that is dominated by any one ideology. A liberal believes that the only lasting and, yes, progressive change has to use many ideas in concert to the public (not private) good.

Again, if you are going to defend Republican and Libertarian behavior, please do so on merits. If you are going demean anothers view do it on a factual basis. Please don't say "Your wrong because I'm right" - it's really a stupid and childish reaction to ideas you don't like.