Do Parents Have the Right To Refuse Medical Treatment for Faith Healing?

This is awful. Any form of "Freedom" is never free. Never. There will always be someone who takes it to the next level. Sadly that is the price to be paid for the "freedom" of raising our children without Big Brother monitoring our parenting decisions from a few well placed, tax funded nanny cams throughout our homes. We all (as parents) make decisions at times that could cost our children their lives if the fates and God were not smiling down on them/us. Putting them behind the wheel of a souped up V8 at 16 has wound up badly more times than we can tally I would imagine. Most of us just get lucky. Do we really want the government to make all those decisions for us because sometimes it doesn't end well? This isn't a comparison to what those parents did, but if one wanted to say danger is danger....let the government step in, then we are all in the crapper one way or the other.

However... I DO NOT agree with what these parents did. I would seek any help I could get for my children. I have lost a child and there is no mountain I wouldn't climb, or price I wouldn't pay for a different outcome, so my patience is thin with others who are careless with their own children. Them having lost one child already.... my feelings are that they should pay for their crime this time if the autopsy results show that it wasn't SIDS or something akin to that.

The government having the right to step in is almost a non question since most of these folks never seek medical attention to begin with.. Usually the religious fanatics are in a situation where nobody outside of the family knows they are really that sick until the child has died sadly. Government intervention would only work in cases where they could catch someone (usually not a religious fanatic, just sorry as hades) out and out neglecting to get medical care for their children and those children are usually removed from the home for neglect or abuse.

Giving them the right to make these decisions is giving them too much of a right over my children where they already have more than enough IMO.

So no. My children are mine (By law until at least 18 since if they decide to burn down a house I will be held responsible for the damages). When I had them, it wasn't the "collective" giving birth to them. The "collective" doesn't pay for them to eat, get braces, first cars, etc. They only want the "collective" when it serves them well. It's never in anyone else's best interest. It is sad that this happens, but I am not willing to forfeit my rights as the ONLY decision maker for my daughter to prevent what can not really be prevented. As I said, someone always takes it to the level of dumbassery. Nobody can make better decisions for your child than the good parents out there. We can not give the government the right to override our decisions in the future.

I can't believe the number of people who are standing up for these idiots. Yes, parents should have first say in what treatments their kids get. However, the parents rights end when their decisions start to interfere with the rights of the children.

In this case, the childrens right to life was denied for the parent's right of religious freedom. In my view, that is ass backwards. What next, are we going to let Muslims have sex with kids, since some of them believe it's their religious right to do so? Or what about Satanists, can they sacrifice kids? After all, their religion demands it!

Heck, the bible clearly calls for beating, maiming, and sometimes killing kids. If I do any of that to my child, can I use religious freedom as a get out of jail free card? No? Then why the hell do these murderers get to?

reply to post by schuyler


Your question didn't answer my question.

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by schuyler

 

Your question didn't answer my question.

It wasn't intended to. Why would you even think it was meant to?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by WaterBottle

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Where are the pro life people on this issue?

Where are the pro choice people on this issue?

Right here, arguing that parents do not have the right to murder fully developed sentient human beings.

Yeah, make sure u kill those lil bastards before the umbilical cord is cut, no one wants to be a murderer ya know.

Nah. You can have an abortion before an umbilical cord is even formed.

Originally posted by WaterBottle

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by WaterBottle

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Where are the pro life people on this issue?

Where are the pro choice people on this issue?

Right here, arguing that parents do not have the right to murder fully developed sentient human beings.

Yeah, make sure u kill those lil bastards before the umbilical cord is cut, no one wants to be a murderer ya know.

Nah. You can have an abortion before an umbilical cord is even formed.

Yes, but the point of my post was to mark the exact point it becomes murder from "choice".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The umbilical cord begins to form between 7 and 10 days. Is abortion during that time murder in your mind? When is the exact time that abortion becomes murder, in your mind?

www.justmommies.com...

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The umbilical cord begins to form between 7 and 10 days. Is abortion during that time murder in your mind? When is the exact time that abortion becomes murder, in your mind?

www.justmommies.com...

edit on 27-4-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

I'm gonna go with the brilliant logic from Barbara Boxer.

She said it isn't murder until the baby arrives safely at the doorstep of the home.

It's certainly not murder with a partial birth abortion, I mean the head is still inside the mother, so that means it's not breathing fresh air.

It's certainly not murder what Kermit Gosnell did in Philly, I mean if it was all the mainstream media would be covering the trial like they did at Newtown, CN.

Let's just be really liberal in our age here, I mean some parents need a lot of time to make these calls. So let's say it's a free choice when to end the life up till the first day of kindergarten.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
Greetings, ATS!
...So...two children died because their parents chose prayer over medical treatment (although, to be fair, we have to assume that treatment would have worked). My question is....do parents have a right to refuse treatment in favor of faith healing? How do we draw a line for parental rights?...
...I'd love to know what you think, ATS.

Another interesting topic smyleegrl
I have been on both sides of that coin (in a way). As a sophomore in high school, I came away from the 1st day of "basketball" in "gym" class, having rubbed blisters (that had burst open by the end of class) on the bottom of my feet... Walked into the dressing/locker room, showered, and, after school was out - had to walk a mile+ home with a stack of books. An hour after leaving the school, I was still in the first quarter mile. My biology instructor, Dr. Melass, passed me...saw me hobbling...picked me up, and dropped me at my house reminding me of the next day's exam ("be sure to study!").
The next morning, getting ready for school, I could barely get my shoe on, as the big toe on my left foot was highly inflamed (especially around the toe nail)... But I went. They eventually sent me home (around noon), with the nurse saying "You need to be using toe-nail clippers instead of finger-nail clippers" (diagnosis - ingrown toenail). (...uhhh...she was WAAAYYY wrong...but...)
Won't go much further with the details...except to say that my father was a "Faith" man...who believed it was a slap in God's (Jesus') face, to trust doctors (&/or medicine) over Him for healing.
The next two days and nights were Hell... Eventually, my entire foot was virtually black, the black turned to blues, purples and reds all the way up to my groin...and, on Saturday morning, when my father had gone to work, my mother crossed the line and took me to the doctor...who immediately told her to take me to an emergency room.
I survived...but might not have. They called it a bacterial infection turned blood poisoning...and the eventual story that came out was - someone of my classmates (gym class) must have had gonorrhea or spinal meningitis...as that's what my cultures showed...and I stepped, with open wound on some of their...uhhh...discharge, in the shower.
Later in life, I was involved with many people who believed almost the same as my father.
To them - it is not only a "Right"...but a Responsibility &/or Requirement...and...if God doesn't/didn't heal you...it's because you didn't have enough faith (or - weren't obedient enough, or...you can imagine - the list gets pretty long over a period of time).
I feel for these people.
I don't trust the medical establishment anymore than our judicial system...
So - it's not like we can say with accurate certainty "It's obvious who the bad guys are".
So - as has been stated - we give up a little more of our freedom/s...to protect and save "the children".

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe
This is awful....

I only quoted the start...to save ATS Server Ink and Paper.
Very Well Stated!
Sorry for your loss.
And I can't imagine the pain of these parents.
I can only assume that they were BELIEVING with every ounce of their religious fiber.
More often than not...of those I've known & witnessed in this general system of belief - one of the parents is quite dominant (even abusive)...the other follows along...and mostly, out of fear. The aftermath is almost never "improvement".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well, regardless of Ms. Boxer's sentiments, in most states here in the USA, 20 - 22 weeks is the cut off point, unless there are dire circumstances.

If a pregnant woman is found using drugs, she will be hospitalized or incarcerated in order to protect her baby. Definitely, by the time a child is born, social protections are in place.

Whatever you think of abortion, there are laws that protect "persons" who have already been born.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I don't know why you're being dramatic and ignoring that there are cut off dates for abortions.

It's certainly not murder with a partial birth abortion, I mean the head is still inside the mother, so that means it's not breathing fresh air.

Well partial birth abortion is illegal in the USA so..

And the overwhelming majority of pro-choice people do not support them and see it as murder.

It's certainly not murder what Kermit Gosnell did in Philly, I mean if it was all the mainstream media would be covering the trial like they did at Newtown, CN.

The two situations aren't comparable. Newtown was a random slaughter of children in an elementary school. This is much more dramatic and terrifying because it could have been anyone's kid. It also happened in a suburb, where the overwhelming majority of Americans live, inducing more empathy for the situation.

Kermit Gosnell was a quack conman that murdered children for monetary gain. He also killed some of the women he performed abortions on due to his negligence. Women that get abortions are looked down upon, reducing the care factor. It also wasn't a random act of violence, the "terrorism" aspect is not there. The people being killed were mainly poor and or minority inner-city residents, a demographic America doesn't care about.

The only reason why conservative media is clinging on to this story is because they somehow think it vilifies their pro-life argument, which makes no sense as the guy was not even a doctor and was performing post viability abortions that are illegal anyway.

reply to post by WaterBottle


So apparently the mainstream media is racist. They covered the Newtown, CN shooting with wall to wall coverage, then had poll after poll about gun control, then slanted their coverage 8-1 in favor of gun control. Yes, it was in the suburbs and little white children were murdered. Now little black babies were murdered in much more horrifying manner and the MSM is completely silent. Where are the polls asking about stricter regulations on abortion? Where is the coverage about little inner city black babies being murdered?

Racist hypocrites they are.

People die every day. The kid was better off dead than having parents with such extreme beliefs. And on top of that, its the parent's right. There have been countless times I couldve died if my parents had made the wrong choice. Some children HAVE died because of a choice their parents made. But this does not mean that choice should be taken from them. Now, if it was discovered the parents purposelly sickened or injured their child that would be different.

What is this fear of death that causes the irrational belief that, we as a society, need to prevent every single death possible??? Sheesh... Death isn't THAT bad. Or, actually, let me rephrase: There ARE worse things than death. Like suffering, and living in fear, and losing your freedom...

It is not the parents right to refuse much needed medical treatment, period. As I said, it would be better to legalise child molestation than this, refusing medical care can be even more damaging. So, is molesting kids also a parents right? Is child abuse a parents right?

I cant believe I have to make an icky sexual analogy to get some people to see how wrong this is..

You do realize that if this was an animal, the owners would be charged with the crime of animal abuse or animal neglect, and rightly so. Are children below animals? According to some people in this thread, they are. Disgusting.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Alien Abduct
Where are all the so called Christians? You should be outraged that these people are facing charges! Speak up! Answer the questions I have asked.

-Alien

We've been posting for a while.

Did you only read the last page?

edit on 27-4-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Soooo.....are you gonna answer my questions? I want every Christian that reads this thread to answer these questions.

Originally posted by Alien Abduct
This country is predominantly christian. And anyone calling their self a Christian can not tell these people that they have wronged.

I have some questions for all you so called Christians.

-Does prayer work?

-Why is it only okay to have faith in your prayer when the person is in the hospital receiving the best medical attention in the world?

So these people are to be punished for believing more strongly than the rest of you so called Christians? These people are to be punished for having more faith in their God than you?



-Alien

So are you ready for a real discussion?

There's a story that related to this. One day there was a flood in a town, water levels reaching to the rooftops. One man was stranded atop his house with no way off, as he couldn't swim, so he prays to God for help. He said, "oh God, please remove me from this danger," and after that he waited, having strong faith in God. Meanwhile the water kept rising. In about ten minutes, two men in a boat rowed up and called out to him, "hey, come aboard, and we'll take you to safety!" But the man replied, "no, thank you! I prayed to God to save me, and he will." So the people rowed away, leaving the man. Later on, as the water rose above the roof he sat on, some kids on a log came by. "Hey mister!" They yelled. "come with us on our tree, or you'll drown!" But the man told them that he had asked God for help, and had faith that He would rescue him. So the kids floated off. Meanwhile the water had risen above the roof, up to his waist. Nobody else came by, and soon the water was over his head and the man drowned. When he died and went to heaven, he asked God, "why didn't you rescue me? I asked, and I had faith, and I even turned down those people, and yet you did not save me!" To which God replied, "who do you think sent the men in the boat, and the children on the log?"

The moral is quite clear. Why couldn't these "parents" understand this?

On the matter of some sort of laws or something...everything will likely have a dark side, or a loophole, which can be manipulated or corrupted.

reply to post by Quarky


I just had to smile at this.

Its the third time (I believe) this story has been posted in this thread.

I agree, its an apt analogy.

reply to post by ThreeSistersofLoveandLigh


So you are totally okay with virgin sacrifices, child brides and pedophilia? These are religious practices. Please tell me if you condone human sacrifice. If anything is okay under the guise of religion, then any practice should be deemed okay so long as you say 'God told me to'.

How are these things any less "barbaric"? We may put a different face on it, but they "let the weak die" by not allowing the perpetuation of the family line,

So the sins of their fathers shall apply to their children? Wow, okay. So if someones parents were criminals, then they too must be considered as such?

As far as these parents go, the first time they made this choice I don't feel it was a jailable offence. They were told, however, that the 'village' does not condone this behaviour. They were told if they did it again that there would be consequences.

Please note: Religion is NOT a free for all. You cannot commit any act you want under the guise of religion and be free from repercussions.

It seems that as long as someone is making the same choices you would make, those that "society" or the government deems appropriate and necessary, it's OK, but otherwise they should be considered criminal because they don't share the same practice or belief?

Yes, exactly. When it comes down to it, we live the human condition. Gods are many even among those who say there is only one. We as a society determine what is evil, and that which we determine to be evil we have punishments for those acts. Even Jesus said 'Verily I say unto you, in as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me'.

Would you say the same thing if the parents had sought an herbal treatment?
What if they did, and the child died?

Did these parents go to an individual that had training in the medical field or is the 'herbal treatment' given to them by just someone who believes they have the answer? If the child died then the herbalist is just as guilty.

Like it or not, we have rules setup in society. These rules are here mainly because society said this is the way it is. Society has determined what is evil despite religion. Again, religion is NOT a free for all.

---------------------------------------

Would you say the same thing about the couple that has a child that has no way to provide for other it than your tax money? People seem to be ready to call them criminals too.

Umm, no. This is not criminal. Well, if they abuse the system then it may be criminal, but at most it is just annoying when people use the system when they don't need to. Calling someone a criminal doesn't mean that they have committed criminal acts.