Aircraft Carriers have been obsolete for a long time

reply to post by eriktheawful


Oh absolutely she was, along with an outstanding response by her crew and DC teams. I was just curious how it could break a battleship in half, but Stark had essentially minimal damage from the same type of missile.

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

No reply on the average speed then

Average speed depends on engine power. Increased engine power, increased speed.

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

What about this piece of BS YOU said

Originally posted by Jepic

A nuclear powered destroyer fleet can be anywhere in less than 5 days and have just as much ordinance as a carrier group.

With sufficient engine power it can be done.

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

apprently you can't read.

First you have to detect the inbound missiles.

You're going to have a hard time doing that with the Harpoon buddy. The radar return is lost in the sea clutter (it flies too close to the surface of the sea for radars to detect....DOH!)

2nd: I was giving you and example of attacking one of your ships, with just surface launched ASMs.

Would you like me to add all the air craft that can also be up in the air launching the same missiles at your "fleet" of destoryers?

How about any SSN attack subs that are in my carrier group? Hmmmm? They also can launch a multitude of ASMs.

The point is: Your thread is wrong. Aircraft carriers are not obsolete at this time, nor will they be for a very long time.

Let me recommend something: either join the Navy and learn for yourself as I have, or get a job working on weapons systems that the US Navy contracts and learn from that experience.

You would be able to debate much better than you have so far in this thread since you lack both the knowledge and experience in areas of naval war ships and weapons platforms.

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

LOL. Too much manga watching in this one. A "destroyer" as large as an aircraft carrier is no longer a destroyer and is just as stealthy as the said aircraft carrier.

The point is that they won't know the harpoons are coming until they reach the pop-up phase and they will not be able to target the carrier battle group because they do not have over the horizon targeting ability...which is what the carrier battle group has with its airborne assets. Back when I was flying, we frequently targeted long distant targets for sub-launched Tomahawks.

I got to ask, honestly, how old are you?

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

What about this piece of BS YOU said

Originally posted by Jepic

A nuclear powered destroyer fleet can be anywhere in less than 5 days and have just as much ordinance as a carrier group.

With sufficient engine power it can be done.

Not unless you make the screws big enough. The engine isn't what moves a ship. The screws do.

reply to post by Jepic


It has everything to do with weight. You can load it down with guns, but that means less armor and protection, and less speed. Otherwise you are getting so massive that you've become a whole new class of ship. I bet there's a good name for it, let me think for a second....oh I know! We can call it a battleship!

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

apprently you can't read.

First you have to detect the inbound missiles.

You're going to have a hard time doing that with the Harpoon buddy. The radar return is lost in the sea clutter (it flies too close to the surface of the sea for radars to detect....DOH!)

2nd: I was giving you and example of attacking one of your ships, with just surface launched ASMs.

Would you like me to add all the air craft that can also be up in the air launching the same missiles at your "fleet" of destoryers?

How about any SSN attack subs that are in my carrier group? Hmmmm? They also can launch a multitude of ASMs.

The point is: Your thread is wrong. Aircraft carriers are not obsolete at this time, nor will they be for a very long time.

Let me recommend something: either join the Navy and learn for yourself as I have, or get a job working on weapons systems that the US Navy contracts and learn from that experience.

You would be able to debate much better than you have so far in this thread since you lack both the knowledge and experience in areas of naval war ships and weapons platforms.

Should work wonderfully well against your carrier group too then... Good strategy.
You carrier group has been overwhelmed already man... Harpoon style huh...

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

What about this piece of BS YOU said

Originally posted by Jepic

A nuclear powered destroyer fleet can be anywhere in less than 5 days and have just as much ordinance as a carrier group.

With sufficient engine power it can be done.

LOL. With suffiecent engine power you are going to propel a carrier sized super missle destroyer indefinately at 60 to 100 knots?

That is a hell of a powerplant. I remember my naval engineering classes at the Naval Academy and I can think up many ways why this would not work.

First of all, please tell me what sort of hull is going to withstand the forces generated by pushing a 95,000 ton object at 75 knots.

More power does not enter it. At a certain speed propellers cavitate (low pressure creates bubbles and water is no longer driventhrough the screw) and they cannot go any faster no matter how much power you have behind them.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

apprently you can't read.

First you have to detect the inbound missiles.

You're going to have a hard time doing that with the Harpoon buddy. The radar return is lost in the sea clutter (it flies too close to the surface of the sea for radars to detect....DOH!)

2nd: I was giving you and example of attacking one of your ships, with just surface launched ASMs.

Would you like me to add all the air craft that can also be up in the air launching the same missiles at your "fleet" of destoryers?

How about any SSN attack subs that are in my carrier group? Hmmmm? They also can launch a multitude of ASMs.

The point is: Your thread is wrong. Aircraft carriers are not obsolete at this time, nor will they be for a very long time.

Let me recommend something: either join the Navy and learn for yourself as I have, or get a job working on weapons systems that the US Navy contracts and learn from that experience.

You would be able to debate much better than you have so far in this thread since you lack both the knowledge and experience in areas of naval war ships and weapons platforms.

Should work wonderfully well against your carrier group too then... Good strategy.
You carrier group has been overwhelmed already man... Harpoon style huh...

No you didn't.

Again, YOU ARE NOT READING THE POSTS PEOPLE ARE POSTING!

By having a destroyer only fleet you do not have ANY over the horizon detection for enemy fleets!

You can't launch ASMs if you don't know where they are.

What part of that can you not get through your head?

To have over the horizon detection you will need air born radar......from planes.....that you launch from your carriers.....

Oh but wait......you don't have any of those in your "Destroyer Fleet".

Please pay attention to what you are being told by those of us who actually have served in the US Navy and have actual combat experience.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

apprently you can't read.

First you have to detect the inbound missiles.

You're going to have a hard time doing that with the Harpoon buddy. The radar return is lost in the sea clutter (it flies too close to the surface of the sea for radars to detect....DOH!)

2nd: I was giving you and example of attacking one of your ships, with just surface launched ASMs.

Would you like me to add all the air craft that can also be up in the air launching the same missiles at your "fleet" of destoryers?

How about any SSN attack subs that are in my carrier group? Hmmmm? They also can launch a multitude of ASMs.

The point is: Your thread is wrong. Aircraft carriers are not obsolete at this time, nor will they be for a very long time.

Let me recommend something: either join the Navy and learn for yourself as I have, or get a job working on weapons systems that the US Navy contracts and learn from that experience.

You would be able to debate much better than you have so far in this thread since you lack both the knowledge and experience in areas of naval war ships and weapons platforms.

Should work wonderfully well against your carrier group too then... Good strategy.
You carrier group has been overwhelmed already man... Harpoon style huh...

No. This is where you fail. You can't see the carrier before he sees you because he has air assets and you don't. This is not a movie, LOL.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Jepic

 

It has everything to do with weight. You can load it down with guns, but that means less armor and protection, and less speed. Otherwise you are getting so massive that you've become a whole new class of ship. I bet there's a good name for it, let me think for a second....oh I know! We can call it a battleship!

A battleship is not called a battleship because of its size but because it has heavy guns mounted on top that served as it's main armament.

Destroyers don't need heavy guns. Heavy guns on battleships are a thing of the past. Missile is where it's all at as I said in this thread already.

reply to post by Jepic


You do realize of course, that unless you have some kind of naval or military background, your debate of some of these members, is like a first aid student trying to argue techniques with a surgeon, right? I mean, this was these guys' jobs for years. I'll defer to them as well, as they know their stuff more than I in this regard.

My knowledge is more from growing up as a military and defense contractor brat, with an intense interest in the field most of my family has been in. These guys' knowledge is from first hand experience with the equipment and concepts you are trying to debate here.

As NavyDoc mentioned:

No. This is where you fail. You can't see the carrier before he sees you because he has air assets and you don't. This is not a movie, LOL.

If you know where someone is, and they don't know where you are, and you can hit them without being detected...the battle is over, and you have won.

From Jepic:

Destroyers don't need heavy guns. Heavy guns on battleships are a thing of the past. Missile is where it's all at as I said in this thread already.

Missiles can be countered more easily than ordnance from big guns. Big guns still have their place.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

What about this piece of BS YOU said

Originally posted by Jepic

A nuclear powered destroyer fleet can be anywhere in less than 5 days and have just as much ordinance as a carrier group.

With sufficient engine power it can be done.

LOL. With suffiecent engine power you are going to propel a carrier sized super missle destroyer indefinately at 60 to 100 knots?

That is a hell of a powerplant. I remember my naval engineering classes at the Naval Academy and I can think up many ways why this would not work.

First of all, please tell me what sort of hull is going to withstand the forces generated by pushing a 95,000 ton object at 75 knots.

More power does not enter it. At a certain speed propellers cavitate (low pressure creates bubbles and water is no longer driventhrough the screw) and they cannot go any faster no matter how much power you have behind them.

Jet- propelled fusion reactor engine. Don't underestimate technology and its riches. A well engineered, hardened and thick frame can easily handle the pressure.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Jepic

 

It has everything to do with weight. You can load it down with guns, but that means less armor and protection, and less speed. Otherwise you are getting so massive that you've become a whole new class of ship. I bet there's a good name for it, let me think for a second....oh I know! We can call it a battleship!

A battleship is not called a battleship because of its size but because it has heavy guns mounted on top that served as it's main armament.

Destroyers don't need heavy guns. Heavy guns on battleships are a thing of the past. Missile is where it's all at as I said in this thread already.

A ship's classification depends on a lot of things:

Size, hull armament, weapons platforms.

A battleship is a battle ship because: yes it had heavy guns....but mainly they were larger than ANY other ships in the fleet (except carriers), so that they could carry those large caliber guns. Their hulls are very thick as to be designed like a tank to take projectile rounds.

Cruisers are also large ships (bigger than destroyers), but are not considered battleships because they are smaller than those. In days of old, they also carried large caliber weapons, but were smaller and less armored than battleships.

A battlecruiser (something that the USSR built during the cold war) is actually in between a Cruiser and a Battleship.

Size actually does have a lot to do with it. If you build a ship which is larger than destroyers and cruisers, and cover it with weapons platforms.....you have built a Battle-Ship.

It's no longer a destroyer.

Do some research and read up an navy classificatons of ships. It's a very long and rich history going back to the days of sail.

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

apprently you can't read.

First you have to detect the inbound missiles.

You're going to have a hard time doing that with the Harpoon buddy. The radar return is lost in the sea clutter (it flies too close to the surface of the sea for radars to detect....DOH!)

2nd: I was giving you and example of attacking one of your ships, with just surface launched ASMs.

Would you like me to add all the air craft that can also be up in the air launching the same missiles at your "fleet" of destoryers?

How about any SSN attack subs that are in my carrier group? Hmmmm? They also can launch a multitude of ASMs.

The point is: Your thread is wrong. Aircraft carriers are not obsolete at this time, nor will they be for a very long time.

Let me recommend something: either join the Navy and learn for yourself as I have, or get a job working on weapons systems that the US Navy contracts and learn from that experience.

You would be able to debate much better than you have so far in this thread since you lack both the knowledge and experience in areas of naval war ships and weapons platforms.

Should work wonderfully well against your carrier group too then... Good strategy.
You carrier group has been overwhelmed already man... Harpoon style huh...

No you didn't.

Again, YOU ARE NOT READING THE POSTS PEOPLE ARE POSTING!

By having a destroyer only fleet you do not have ANY over the horizon detection for enemy fleets!

You can't launch ASMs if you don't know where they are.

What part of that can you not get through your head?

To have over the horizon detection you will need air born radar......from planes.....that you launch from your carriers.....

Oh but wait......you don't have any of those in your "Destroyer Fleet".

Please pay attention to what you are being told by those of us who actually have served in the US Navy and have actual combat experience.

There is a wonderful thing called satellites which I already mentioned early in this thread. Doesn't get much more over the horizon than that.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You are going to send 18 harpoons against a destroyer fleet and expect that the officers inside the destroyers will just sit there looking at their watches waiting for the missile to hit home? You don't believe the ships will launch a coordinated strike to neutralize the missiles while still far away?

And what of the counter-attack? How many projectiles can your group take on in the wake of an massive attack?

apprently you can't read.

First you have to detect the inbound missiles.

You're going to have a hard time doing that with the Harpoon buddy. The radar return is lost in the sea clutter (it flies too close to the surface of the sea for radars to detect....DOH!)

2nd: I was giving you and example of attacking one of your ships, with just surface launched ASMs.

Would you like me to add all the air craft that can also be up in the air launching the same missiles at your "fleet" of destoryers?

How about any SSN attack subs that are in my carrier group? Hmmmm? They also can launch a multitude of ASMs.

The point is: Your thread is wrong. Aircraft carriers are not obsolete at this time, nor will they be for a very long time.

Let me recommend something: either join the Navy and learn for yourself as I have, or get a job working on weapons systems that the US Navy contracts and learn from that experience.

You would be able to debate much better than you have so far in this thread since you lack both the knowledge and experience in areas of naval war ships and weapons platforms.

Should work wonderfully well against your carrier group too then... Good strategy.
You carrier group has been overwhelmed already man... Harpoon style huh...

No. This is where you fail. You can't see the carrier before he sees you because he has air assets and you don't. This is not a movie, LOL.

I can see them even better than they can actually. And then some. Space. The final frontier.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by Jepic

 

You do realize of course, that unless you have some kind of naval or military background, your debate of some of these members, is like a first aid student trying to argue techniques with a surgeon, right? I mean, this was these guys' jobs for years. I'll defer to them as well, as they know their stuff more than I in this regard.

My knowledge is more from growing up as a military and defense contractor brat, with an intense interest in the field most of my family has been in. These guys' knowledge is from first hand experience with the equipment and concepts you are trying to debate here.

As NavyDoc mentioned:

No. This is where you fail. You can't see the carrier before he sees you because he has air assets and you don't. This is not a movie, LOL.

If you know where someone is, and they don't know where you are, and you can hit them without being detected...the battle is over, and you have won.

From Jepic:

Destroyers don't need heavy guns. Heavy guns on battleships are a thing of the past. Missile is where it's all at as I said in this thread already.

Missiles can be countered more easily than ordnance from big guns. Big guns still have their place.

edit on 24-4-2013 by Gazrok because: (no reason given)

Yes... In the Internet everyone can be Montgomery.

Planes are primitive in recon field compared to satellites.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

What about this piece of BS YOU said

Originally posted by Jepic

A nuclear powered destroyer fleet can be anywhere in less than 5 days and have just as much ordinance as a carrier group.

With sufficient engine power it can be done.

except that destroyers arent nuke powered man...........you keep moving the goal post.....

every time someone successfully refutes your claim, then you dream up some hypothetical situation that doesnt exist.......

youre trolling............i encourage everyone to Abandon Ship.........as it were....

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by Jepic

 

What about this piece of BS YOU said

Originally posted by Jepic

A nuclear powered destroyer fleet can be anywhere in less than 5 days and have just as much ordinance as a carrier group.

With sufficient engine power it can be done.

LOL. With suffiecent engine power you are going to propel a carrier sized super missle destroyer indefinately at 60 to 100 knots?

That is a hell of a powerplant. I remember my naval engineering classes at the Naval Academy and I can think up many ways why this would not work.

First of all, please tell me what sort of hull is going to withstand the forces generated by pushing a 95,000 ton object at 75 knots.

More power does not enter it. At a certain speed propellers cavitate (low pressure creates bubbles and water is no longer driventhrough the screw) and they cannot go any faster no matter how much power you have behind them.

Jet- propelled fusion reactor engine. Don't underestimate technology and its riches. A well engineered, hardened and thick frame can easily handle the pressure.

Again, you missed the point: It's not the engine, it's the screws.

At some point, your screws will no longer push the ship forward faster, because the are turning so fast, they are cavitating (they are no longer biting the water, but are now acting like a blender).

This means, you'll need bigger screws. Bigger screws mean bigger gearing in the HP and LP turbines (which are freaking expensive as hell to make), bigger shafts, etc.

It also means that your ship is going to limited where it goes, because it has a much deeper draft, and the screws will tear up the harbor floors (something people tend to get very pissed about).

You've just spend a ton of money on a monster that a lot of submarines will be drooling over to take out. Congradulations.

Instead, it's better to make smaller ships that are much more cost effective, can go in shallow water if needed, and can move around in a fleet better.