The Religion of Theism, Atheism and Agnosticism.

reply to post by SaturnFX



That's a fun and clear metaphor there!

So.. how would you describe the agnostic then ? (in the alien story)

reply to post by Bluesma


Exactly my point, but better explained.

If atheism amounts to no more than an opinion as atheists are claiming, like say the preference of Coke over Pepsi, why can't we leave it as matters of mere opinion? But there is an ideological mindset—dare I say a religious psychology—in the promotion of said opinion over the opinions of others. This is the part of religion the atheist—despite all claims to the contrary—has failed to distance himself from. And this is the very psychology that is capable of convincing people to fly into buildings for their beliefs.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


What is the ideological mindset of an atheist? Atheism is not really an ideology. There are no guiding principles, no manifesto.

I don't consider myself an atheist, but understand that all it amounts to is a non belief in a god or gods. There is no militant atheism. If the most militant atheist is Richard Dawkins then there's not much to worry about.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

What is the ideological mindset of an atheist? Atheism is not really an ideology. There are no guiding principles, no manifesto.

I don't consider myself an atheist, but understand that all it amounts to is a non belief in a god or gods. There is no militant atheism. If the most militant atheist is Richard Dawkins then there's not much to worry about.

What label do you take to let others know that you do not believe in Santa Clause? There is no label for that position, because it is completely superfluous. Why draw a line in the sand, pick a side, where none is needed?

It is because the atheist is an advocate of his position, and is advocating "non-belief" in a deity ( "non-belief" of course being a contradictory phrase to hide the facts of their beliefs on the subject). They take the religious and ideological stance that what amounts to their opinion and arguments about something that doesn't exist matters more than the opinions of others.

Rather than find the whole subject and argument of deities absurd, they remain within the argument pleading their case, building bridges to no where. They have simply not left religion despite their claims to the contrary.

Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

That's a fun and clear metaphor there!

So.. how would you describe the agnostic then ? (in the alien story)

Agnostic is the exact same as the atheist...
a atheist simply means no belief in a deity..agnostic, or gnostic, is simply determining the knowledge of the decision on belief

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Your the one arguing!

Its obvious the great unicorn controls all! You create a divide in our society by not worshiping the great unicorn! Why don't you anarchists and evil doers just stop destroying society with your lack of faith.

I suppose the next time someone suicide bombs a market you'll claim "see if we'd just ignored them this wouldn't have happened!"

If all of this doesn't make you realize how flawed and childish your argument is then may science have mercy on your consciousness.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


When most western societies are based on the Christian religion, it is very difficult for atheists not to engage with believers or the remnants of the believers impact on those societies.

reply to post by Wertdagf

Your the one arguing!

Its obvious the great unicorn controls all! You create a divide in our society by not worshiping the great unicorn! Why don't you anarchists and evil doers just stop destroying society with your lack of faith.

I suppose the next time someone suicide bombs a market you'll claim "see if we'd just ignored them this wouldn't have happened!"

If all of this doesn't make you realize how flawed and childish your argument is then may science have mercy on your consciousness.

I'm arguing that your crusader-like mentality is the exact same as those religious nuts you claim to defend society against (you're doing a great job I might add).

When I see someone blow up a marketplace I'll say "That's what ideology and fanaticism gets you. That's what division and hatred get you. That's what irrationality gets you." Its you who ignores the real issue in favour of arguing over nothings. Instead you fuel the fires.

How flawed, childish and absolutely dishonest.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

When most western societies are based on the Christian religion, it is very difficult for atheists not to engage with believers or the remnants of the believers impact on those societies.

I agree. But is there a better way to go about this than to resort to their techniques? This is what I'm looking for.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope
Well considered, as always, LesMisanthrope.

As we have discussed on your "The Materialist Insult" thread, all beliefs whether they be about a deity/deities or the non-existence of any such deity/deities are all forms of idealism. And it is idealism that keeps us from understanding what reality actually is, and is the root of the ongoing insanity we can see everyday on the news.

We first have to discover what is real or true by releasing all of our preconceived notions and beliefs, but not just by somehow standing abstracted from what is arising for us - but by fully participating in life with the whole body-mind. Anything short of recognizing, feeling, acting, and being the whole singular body-mind altogether, is idealistic.

One can readily observe how idealistic we actually tend to be by simply sitting quietly and allow the body-mind to feel/be from head to toe. Not so easy to do because of our constant idealistic abstractions - and yet we tacitly know that the "I" and "you" we refer to as ourself and others is the whole body-mind. (Whether these body-minds are who we actually are in reality, is another matter, but this "whole body" basis is fundamental for that determination.)

Even the scientific-materialist tends to be idealistic because they, like many an atheist, have notions that consciousness arises as a result of the material. But this is only believed to be true based on a kind of atheism relative to what is tacitly obvious when fully participated in. If they look at the body-mind as a single organism, can they simply feel/be that single organism in every moment? None that I have asked this question of can - so more idealism must be at work here.

Regardless, it is clear that the whole body-mind must be recognized as singular and whole, and to be fully participating in reality rather than viewed as disparate parts, abstracted in idealistic belief systems, non-feeling, endless thinking, egoic presumptions of separation, mind vs. body conflicts, etc., etc.

So we first have to realize that we are all tending to be idealistic, regardless of what label(s) we apply, and discover the root of this idealism.

reply to post by NorEaster


I like your thought process, but how do you square your elaborate posts with the statement below your name in your avatar?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

The Religion of Theism, Atheism and Agnosticism

The bottom line here is that non-belief is indeed a belief. In sum, it is a person choice to believe in 'nothing.

The universe around us is so vast that it is beyond human concept. We've only begun exploring a few little areas here in our spittoon of a solar system. Beyond that, it is impossible (at this point in our infinite knowledge, anyway) to prove that anything does not exist... including the concept of aliens or a god.

So, again, it is a choice based in our faith of what we think we know.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

When most western societies are based on the Christian religion, it is very difficult for atheists not to engage with believers or the remnants of the believers impact on those societies.

I agree. But is there a better way to go about this than to resort to their techniques? This is what I'm looking for.

Believers are going to believe, no matter what evidence you place in front of them. The same applies for non believers. Unless they have a religious or spiritual experience, then there is no evidence for them to change their minds. Let people choose their own directions in life and we should all try and get along together. That is the main message in religion after all.

Atheists make up a very small percentage on a global stage. If those who believe in their religions to the word and really believe it , they need not feel insecure about athiests and their non belief.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I am not an atheist or an agnostic.
I am a Christian who has been an atheist in the past.
So I have no pro-atheist axe to grind when I ask this question;
What on earth is the point of Christians spending all this energy trying to demonstrate that atheists have a religion?
Where does it get us, exactly?

It is my impression that such demonstrations are intended to prove that atheists cling to just as tenuous a belief system as Christians do, and therefore are guilty of the same hypocrisy and uncertainty should they commence a thorough examination of the Christian doctrine, considering they are unwilling to extend such critical examination to their own school of thought.

For me it's a simple argument. I arrived on the planet only to have the religious flavor of the day rammed down my throat according to the region I landed in (2000 miles to the southeast another flavor would have been forced upon me). I chose for the most part to ignore the indoctrination and upon leaving home I dropped the idea of the bible, jesus and god as I perceived it to be a bi product of a weak mind...I never looked back, got on with my life but sadly was labeled an atheist. I didn't choose the tag, they did. For someone to tell me that I'm a follower of religion because of a perception others have of me is just as silly as the initial attempted indoctrination...Again I walk away and get on with my life!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

It would follow, then, that atheism is NOT a religion.

A. There is no superhuman controlling power in atheism. Just the opposite.
B. There is no "system", "faith" or "worship" involved in atheism.
C. What is to "pursue" when the belief is that there is nothing to pursue?

The problem is the nature of the question, and your original question of "Define religion" really gets to the heart of the matter. The issue revolves around "belief"

Atheists BELIEVE there is no deity.
Agnostics DO NOT believe in a deity and consider the issue an unanswered question.
Theists BELIEVE there IS a deity (one or more).

Atheists DO have "faith." They are quite sure there is no such thing as a deity. They can't prove this at all. They don't know, for sure, that there is no deity. They spend their time debunking some absurdities often found in religions, such as the Earth being made in 4004 BC, quite correctly show the logical absurdity of such beliefs, then jump to the conclusion that there is deity.

One does not follow from the other, but atheists basically say, "See how stupid this belief is, therefore God does not exist." This is as absurd as saying, "See how complex life is on Earth. It couldn't possibly be by chance, therefore God exists." BOTH statement are logically fallacious.

THIS is what people mean when they proclaim, "Atheism is a religion." They don't mean there is a Church of Atheism where you go to not worship. They mean that atheists stand in a believing relationship with the issue.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Yet another excellent post, LesMis. I'm sure you've heard of the 8 blind men and the elephant story; that's how I view the whole thing. Everyone is right, but in a shortsighted kind of way. They miss the forest for the trees. But no one is going to understand that until we can actually see the forest and not just the trees.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Wertdagf

 

"That's what ideology and fanaticism gets you. That's what division and hatred gets you. That's what irrationality gets you."

But lets not talk about it or some idiot on a forums will say its a religion

O NO!!!!! You have an opinion on ideology and fanaticism!?!?! Well, looks like your just as guilty as everyone else. I can see it now.... people thousands of years ago complaining that a debate about the existence of planets outside our solar system is pointless because we will never know.......

What point is there to discuss the possible source of the suns energy? We will never know.

What is the point of talking about consciousness? We will never know.

What is the point of discussing the possibility of life on other planets? We will never know.

..................Said the ancestors of LesMisanthrope... "lets just not talk about it, that will make progress!".

reply to post by schuyler


Theism is about what you believe

Gnosticism is about what you know.

Someone can be an agnostic atheist or an gnostic theist.

reply to post by schuyler


In my opinion this thread is actually not about religion, but epistemology/ontology. How can we as human beings "know" something. Having said that, a true Atheist would not agree with your definition.

Do we need to "believe" that there is no pink pig orbiting the moon? Or could it be a fact supported by every telescope ever pointed at the moon? Or is there a small probability for it to occur, although nobody has ever seen one. Or, in the case of Theists, it is evident that there is a pink pig orbiting the moon, because there are many books describing the phenomenon.