The REAL Reason Bush Won

George W. Bush remains President because a majority of Americans voted for him.

Was there fraud in this election? Oh hell yes! Just like always, since the very first elections over two centuries ago. Don't believe me? Study the history of American politics.

It has often been much worse than anything most people can imagine. Consider the legendary voting practices of Chicagoans, for example: "early and often". And that's just one notable example.

Election fraud is as American as apple pie, and we will never be free of it.

Occasionally, fraud can change the outcome of an election. However, far more often, it cannot overcome the will of the people. Yesterday's elections are an example of this.

If you are an American and are unhappy with the outcome of yesterday's elections, it is best to remember that a system based on majority opinion will necessarily mean the rejection of the minority opinion. If you cannot accept that idea, then your best option is to learn how.

Failing that, your only reasonable option is to seek a different form of government to live under, either in America or elsewhere.

If you are a citizen of a nation other than the United States, and cannot understand why we vote the way we do, please remember that what we Americans consider best for ourselves will not always agree with what you think is best for us.

That is the nature of national politics, and therefore American politics. We pursue the course of action we consider best for ourselves. While that may often coincide with what is best for everyone else on Earth, it does not always.

Where it does not, you may choose to resent us, or you may choose to try to understand why we choose the path we have chosen. If you reject the legitimacy of our right to do so, then you will never understand us.

If you are a member of AboveTopSecret.com and unable to discuss politics without denigrating and insulting those who do not agree with you, I recommend studying and adopting a tone of civility. If you cannot do this, then you will isolate yourself into irrelevance.

A political system based on the opinions of citizens can only function if all citizens are free to express them. To attack people for their opinions is to explicitly reject the idea of democracy and is a conscious decision to Embrace Ignorance.

Non-Americans: If you are interested in American politics but they make no sense to you, then I recommend seeking to better understand Americans. Hint: We are not caricatures or idiots any more than you are. False views of Americans will not change the truth of who we are, they will serve only to deceive those who subscribe to them.

Americans: If you are interested in American politics, then I recommend listening more than you speak, not allowing others to choose your opinions for you and remembering that when you are addressing a fellow American, you are addressing someone who has as much political power as you do: as a fellow voter.

ATSers: I have tended to stay out of the political forums during the campaign season, and will probably stay out of them in the future, because the signal-to-noise ratio is far too low. But it need not be that way.

If you cannot express your opinion without insulting others, then your opinion is worthless. Post accordingly.

This thread does not ask any questions, but rather makes a statement. The statement summarizes my opinions of yesterday's elections, American politics and political discussion.

Yours may vary, but thanks for reading mine.

and a big thought 4 all the victims of the war and 911....oh that would be asking to fu ng much!

stay in - tune in - eat up all your propogana pie, forget the past, fu k up the future...

what are people playing at?

u got fox i've got sky!

if the american people are aware of such vote fraud then why dont they grow up instead of sitting in the corner waiting for big ol bush to wipe their arses and protect them for the bogeyman......fu ing pathetic

1. Manipulation of Diebold results by surruptitious backroom re-programming.
2. Disruptions in the voting process including the loss of thousands of absentee ballots.
3. District gerrymandering by Republicans over the last four years.
4. Gagging the media, never to bring up ANY third party candidates nor their platforms, issues and constituencies.

My judgment as an old old fossil is that this election was a sham just like 2000 and 2002.

I don't believe anything they say; nor the outcome; nor the legitimacy of this regime.

But that's okay. Tyranny is always temporary, thanks be to God.

Emily Cragg

Originally posted by Majic

If you are a citizen of a nation other than the United States, and cannot understand why we vote the way we do, please remember that what we Americans consider best for ourselves will not always agree with what you think is best for us.

Nice essay.

Can you please add your thoughts for people for whom citizenship and nationality are unimportant, who are thinking about the impact of this bad result on a global stage.


PS. As we speak Bush remains President not because the majority of Americans voted for him, but because the Electoral College has not yet assembled. Popular vote has not much to do with a gerrymandered system, as seen in 2000 and many times before.

[edit on 3-11-2004 by MaskedAvatar]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Can you please add your thoughts for people for whom citizenship and nationality are unimportant, who are thinking about the impact of this bad result on a global stage.

Like it or not, all people of the world fall under the domain of some nation or another, and despite the non-chartered ambitions of some U.N. staffers, there is no legal authority above national sovereignty.

In the case of the United States, the nation is governed by representatives elected by the people.

Although these representatives tend to have a great deal of discretion to act as they will, and seem well aware of that fact, they nonetheless remain accountable to the people they represent.

If we generally approve of their performance, we reelect them. If not, we choose a replacement. In this manner, U.S. officials are considered to represent the "will of the people".

Because of the way things are, it seems to me that "people for whom citizenship and nationality are unimportant" are in denial of political reality. As such, they have effectively excluded themselves from political significance.

Even in the event of One World Government, such people will remain politically irrelevant, since One World Government would still be nothing more than a single nation where there are currently many.

Thus a true lack of interest in citizenship and nationality is nothing more than a lack of participation in the political affairs of mankind.


[edit on 11/3/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

PS. As we speak Bush remains President not because the majority of Americans voted for him, but because the Electoral College has not yet assembled. Popular vote has not much to do with a gerrymandered system, as seen in 2000 and many times before.

[edit on 3-11-2004 by MaskedAvatar]

I'm confused, are you saying that Bush doesn't have the popular vote (incorrect), or are you saying that a system that has worked for over 200 years is wrong because they elected someone you don't like?

He won by 51% Not a landslide poeple......too bad half of this country are so friggin blind!

You don't even need fraud to win. You don't even need the majority of the countries votes. You just need the most electorial votes.

Electorial College = Your vote doesn't count...

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by Majic

If you are a citizen of a nation other than the United States, and cannot understand why we vote the way we do, please remember that what we Americans consider best for ourselves will not always agree with what you think is best for us.

Nice essay.

Can you please add your thoughts for people for whom citizenship and nationality are unimportant, who are thinking about the impact of this bad result on a global stage.


PS. As we speak Bush remains President not because the majority of Americans voted for him, but because the Electoral College has not yet assembled. Popular vote has not much to do with a gerrymandered system, as seen in 2000 and many times before.

[edit on 3-11-2004 by MaskedAvatar]

well if you want my advice for the "citizens of the world"they should probably try to clean up their own little corner of the world and leave us to take care of ourselves.and if you happen to live over in the great sandbox,maybe not crash planes into our buildings and try if you could to not strap explosives to children?Mm Kay?

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Electorial College = Your vote doesn't count...

Yep, because the Electoral College cast it's votes totally opposite of what the popular vote represented.

But you are asking more than many of the indiduals can comply with, civil communication and resonable understanding.

Very eloquent and appreciated post!

Originally posted by enigmalone
But you are asking more than many of the indiduals can comply with, civil communication and resonable understanding.

Still, I see no harm in asking. I am not above throwing my share of mud, and used to hang out on alt.flame, no less, so I know the mentality quite well.

It is because of my experience as a mudslinger and flamelord that I can hold out hope for even the most seemingly unredeemable troll.

Those who claim there is no hope seek to deceive, or are deceived themselves. There is always hope.

Whilst it's true that the 55 - 60% turnout is a little better than some recent years it is hardly that impressive.

Until the public are engaged properly I see little sign of much beyond this current kind of shallow public politics and it's blind partisan 'football' type supporters.

Thanks for the responses, both the reasoned and the subnormal.

Clearly "think global, act local" will not apply for most ATS members if this is an indicative sample.

The trouble is, many cannot see the hypocrisy in their isolationist recommendations coupled with foreign incursions predicated on lies and fraudulent intelligence.

No, nations like that are a thing of the past, not a thing of the future. There is the reality.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
The trouble is, many cannot see the hypocrisy in their isolationist recommendations coupled with foreign incursions predicated on lies and fraudulent intelligence.

No, nations like that are a thing of the past, not a thing of the future. There is the reality.

The past exists only in our memories, and the future only in our dreams -- dreams that will never come true, except perhaps for those of prophets (and only a tiny fraction of them, at that).

Acceptance of the way things really are is not the same as praise for it.

Whether or not Utopia can be realized by mankind is unknown, but if history serves us at all, it teaches us that such a thing would not only be unprecedented, but contrary to our nature and thus would be ultimately rejected by its supposed beneficiaries.

Thus those of us who seek to live life as best we can are forced to accept what is possible instead of what may be desirable, but unattainable.

Politics in America, as with anywhere else, represent a practice constrained by our inherent imperfection.

Disagreeable though American politics may seem, fantasy offers nothing better. In fact, the consequences of denial masquerading as idealism are usually far worse.

In fact, the consequences of denial masquerading as idealism are usually far worse.

What are the consequences of denial? We try to deny ignorance all day long.

What are the consequences of idealism? No-one has posted many ideals here much besides subjugation and nationalism.

What is disguising the first as the second worse than exactly, and why?

Hypocrisy, corruption and delusion of the masses are more harmful tendencies than envisioning and idealism.

Our future experience is being forged by what our leaders are doing in our names now.

We can expect more trouble because the US is sowing trouble and shame.

And that's how it is. Maybe what we are learning here is to GROK how Evil works and how it insinuates itself into a system of governance, when the people aren't looking.

God help us. We have created a mess.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
What are the consequences of denial? We try to deny ignorance all day long.

Hopefully by that you don't mean denial of its existence. In context, I used the term to signify "denial of reality".

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
What are the consequences of idealism? No-one has posted many ideals here much besides subjugation and nationalism.

The consequences depend on the ideal in question. In general, my point is that idealism devoid of pragmatism is fantasy, and thus irrelevant to politics.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
What is disguising the first as the second worse than exactly, and why?

A metaphor for illustration: If you are freezing to death, pontificating on how wonderful a fire would be is far worse than looking for firewood.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Hypocrisy, corruption and delusion of the masses are more harmful tendencies than envisioning and idealism.

Ironically, "envisioning and idealism" are the most common means for accomplishing "hypocrisy, corruption and delusion of the masses".

To use a well-worn and excessively charged example, Hitler used precisely these things to lead the people of Germany to a new ideal borne of his visions.

Such are the hazards of idealism.


P.S. I am leery of the term "masses" when used to describe human beings. It is dehumanizing, and serves to reduce people to "merely statistics". It is also elitist in connotation, implying a lack of connection to humanity. Just my opinions.

[edit on 11/3/2004 by Majic]

Am I the only non US citzen who is confused by the american electorial system ? The american electorial seem to go against all logic.

The lack of a thrid party or candidate seems contraire to the ideals America was built on.

I urge all ATS members who were born in the USA to run for the oval office in 2008 and if there are enough "thrid party candidates" holding rallys you might just scare the american media into giving you some coverage.
Just think if you well you might capture 5% of the vote.

There are several political parties in the U.S.

Only two of them have significant followings however. If Americans decide to change that, we will do so by voting for someone other than the "Demopublicans".


[edit on 11/3/2004 by Majic]