Air Loom: The Curious Case of James Tilly Matthews

reply to post by Bedlam


Whoa Man!

I hope that everyone stars your post and goes to your link.

I can't believe that you scored a link to the best half of Illustrations of Madness.

Thanks so much for adding extended life to the thread, Bedlam.



IoM

We Have Stepped Beyond The Veil of Beter

Richard Sharpe Shaver

Shaver claimed to have worked in a factory where, in 1932, odd things began to occur. As Bruce Lanier Wright notes, Shaver "began to notice that one of the welding guns on his job site, 'by some freak of its coil's field atunements', was allowing him to hear the thoughts of the men working around him. More frighteningly, he then received the telepathic record of a torture session conducted by malign entities in caverns deep within the earth".

Those ancients also abandoned some of their own offspring here, a minority of whom remained noble and human "Teros", while most degenerated over time into a population of mentally impaired sadists known as "Deros" — short for "detrimental robots". Shaver's "robots" were not mechanical constructs, but were robot-like due to their savage behavior.

These Deros still lived in the cave cities, according to Shaver, kidnapping surface-dwelling people by the thousands for meat or torture. With the sophisticated "ray" machinery that the great ancient races had left behind, they spied on people and projected tormenting thoughts and voices into our minds...

en.wikipedia.org...

Peter D. Beter, on Organic Robotoids...



And Laura Knight-Jadczyk and her crew have stretched the definition so far it gives a new meaning to the word absurdity...

Only very slowly and by a complex estimation or judgment based on multitudinous small impressions does the conviction come upon us that, despite these intact rational processes, these normal emotional affirmations, and their consistent application in all directions, we are dealing here not with a complete man at all but with something that suggests a subtly constructed reflex machine which can mimic the human personality perfectly.

So perfect is this reproduction of a whole and normal man that no one who examines him in a clinical setting can point out in scientific or objective terms why, or how, he is not real.

www.cassiopaea.org...

Yet, ATS, here is the original, straight outta 1798 (more or less)...

"The principal of this crew is named Bill or, the King: he formerly surpassed the rest in skill; and in the dexterity with which he worked the machine: he is about 64 or 5 years of age, and in person resembles the late Dr. De Valangin, but his features are coarser,

Perhaps he is nearer in likeness to the late Sir William Pultney, to whom he is made a duplicate."

www.collegeofphysicians.org...

I will paraphrase: Matthews went on to explain to Haslam that 'Bill the King' had duplicated himself as Sir William Pulteney, and that this artificial Sir Pulteney had taken control of would-be assassin, James Hadfield, and had forced Hadfield to attempt to assassinate King George the 3rd of England.

Wow guys, that is only page 21 and our fragment begins on page 19; so 2 pages in and we are securely behind the Beter Curtain.

Thoughts?

OK ATS,

We have, in less than 2 pages, provided the key for understanding the basis for virtually every conspiracy theory hatched for the last 218 years.

And you have nothing to say?

Well, all I have to say, for the moment, is that if you plan on bringing your theories around for a test-drive, they had better be something new; because what we have shown here is the same old story, brought whole into the world in 1795, just as we find it today in 2013.

Game over.

All Your Story Are Belong To Us

Have a nice day.

Well, I'm impressed. I'm also a little in awe. I was stationed in London from 2003-2005. My old barracks (before they were shut down) was in Kennington, right off of the Lambeth Road. All the museums in London are free to the public. I wandered around the Imperial War Museum frequently. After my third visit, one of the people who worked there told me about the building's history. The Imperial War Museum was Bedlam for about 100 years or so after it moved out of the original site at Moorlands. I was even given a tour "behind-the-scenes", if you will, to the areas that weren't renovated when the Museum moved in. This area included some of the old cells and a morgue. Creepy, but fascinating. Some of the guys that worked there would tell me ghost stories over a pint at The Ship from time to time. To think I was in the same building as the focus of your story...? Fascinating.

reply to post by Vonotar


Thanks for sharing your story, I have been looking around the web, trying to find photos and maps of Bedlam and its environs and I was confused until I figured out that parts of it have moved and/or are no longer there.


Thanks a lot for contributing, Vonotar, I am really glad that you enjoyed the thread.

Hi Everyone,

I would like to wrap things up with a few loose ends that I have wanted to post.

First, I have some maps. Matthews believed that the Air loom Gang that had been assigned to him were living in the cellar basement of some apartment at London Wall. London Wall was a defensive wall built by the Ancient Romans, and the name now applies to the road that parallels where the wall once stood. It looks like Matthews agreed with P.K. Dick.

So, here is a map from 1775 that shows Bedlam, as the little red tessellated structure, and you can see London Wall stretching out in front of it...



And here is a modern map that shows the same streets, you can see how London Wall still runs in to Wormwood street and on to Bishopsgate Road...



And finally, I have two little nuggets from John Haslam's Illustrations of Madness, thanks to member Bedlam's link.

The first is a passage that was apparently written by Haslam, and is attached as a footnote in IoM. It is Haslam writing down what seems to be his impression of the 'Egyptian Snuff' that Matthews told Haslam the Air Loom Gang used to torment Matthews in his sleep.

But check out his prose; it seems to be the opinion of Mike Jay and others that Haslam might have been just as 'mad', or madder than Matthews, and it is passages like this one that seem to lend some credence to that line of reasoning.

Egyptian Snuff:

"The disgusting odour is exclusively employed during sleep, when, by their dream-workings, they have placed him as a solitary wanderer in the marhses near the mouth of the river Nile; not at that season when its waters bring joy and refreshment, but at its lowest ebb, when the heat is most oppressive and the muddy and stagnant pools diffuse a putrid and suffocating stench;-the eye is equally disgusted with the face of the country, which is made to assume a hateful tinge, resembling the dirty and cold blue of a scorbatic ulcer.

From this cheerless scene they suddenly awake him, when he finds his nostrils stuffed, his mouth furred, and himself nearly choked by the poisonous effects of their Egyptian snuff."

-J. Haslam, IoM, P.28

www.collegeofphysicians.org...

Poe? Eat your heart out; kinda Lovecraftian, too.

Finally, I would like to add this: Haslam noted that Matthews, in describing the various ways in which the Air Loom Gang would attack him, used the word assailment. Haslam seemed to be annoyed at Matthews for using what Haslam referred to variously as "the vocabulary of the pneumatic gang"; I can imagine the two of them bickering over words like two scrabble players, "That's not a word, James.", "Is to, you old poof.", and so on.

-assailment

“This term which frequently occurs, but is not to be found in our dictionaries, either originates with Mr. M, or is extracted from the vocabulary of the pneumatic gang.”

-J. Haslam IoM

Now it is, apothecary Haslam, now it is.

Thanks everyone.

Originally posted by Bybyots
Game over.

That may be a little hasty...

I've got one or two niggles with the case as presented by Mike Jay's article. I don't know why he goes off on one about mesmerism for starters. But, without going on, he makes a somewhat sweeping remark about the contributions of others to the study of madness, and in amongst a couple of other names, sneaks in a mention of Viktor Tausk.

Tausk published a paper based on his interviews with his paranoid schizophrenic patients, and in it, quantified their delusions as commonly involving an 'Influencing Machine'...I'll let Tausk explain...

The schizophrenic influencing machine is a machine of mystical nature. The patients are able to give only vague hints of its construction. It consists of boxes, cranks, levers, wheels, buttons, wires, batteries, and the like. Patients endeavor to discover the construction of the apparatus by means of their technical knowledge, and it appears that with the progressive popularization of the sciences, all the forces known to technology are utilized to explain the functioning of the apparatus. All the discoveries of mankind, however, are regarded as inadequate to explain the marvelous powers of this machine, by which the patients feel themselves persecuted.

The main effects of the influencing machine are the following:

• 1. It makes the patient see pictures. When this is the case, the machine is generally a magic lantern or cinematograph. The pictures are seen on a single plane, on walls or windowpanes, and unlike typical visual hallucinations are not three dimensional.
• 2. It produces, as well as removes, thoughts and feelings by means of waves or rays or mysterious forces which the patient's knowledge of physics is inadequate to explain. In such cases, the machine is often called a 'suggestion-apparatus.' Its construction cannot be explained, but its function consists in the transmission or 'draining off' of thoughts and feelings by one or several persecutors.
• 3. It produces motor phenomena in the body, erections and seminal emissions, that are intended to deprive the patient of his male potency and weaken him. This is accomplished either by means of suggestion or by air-currents, electricity, magnetism, or X-rays.
• 4. It creates sensations that in part cannot be described, because they are strange to the patient himself, and that in part are sensed as electrical, magnetic, or due to air-currents.
• 5. It is also responsible for other occurrences in the patient's body, such as cutaneous eruptions, abscesses, or other pathological processes.

en.wikipedia.org...

Tausk got the name from Francis Hauksbee...

Tausk took his term from an apparently magical device invented in 1706 by Francis Hauksbee, a student of Isaac Newton. His “Influence Machine” was a spinning glass globe, which cracked like lightning when touched, transmitting an electrical spark and emitting a greenish neon light when rubbed—a mysterious luminosity which was called “the glow of life.” These apparently supernatural effects were caused by the introduction of static electricity into a vacuum; it worked like the shimmering vacuum tube of the modern TV. Its psychological incarnation had similarly mesmerizing effects: “The influencing machine,” Tausk wrote, “makes the patients see pictures. When this is the case, the machine is generally a magic lantern or cinematograph. The pictures are seen on a single plane, on walls or windowpanes; unlike typical visual hallucinations, they are not three-dimensional.”


cabinetmagazine.org...

If James Tilly Matthews was the originator of the idea, how did it get to Vienna, and by 1919 be considered by Tausk a common symptom of schizophrenia?

...And given Tausk, why did Jay feel the need to fill in with all that stuff about mermerism?

reply to post by Bybyots


Oh and this as well...

Tausk's paper has been highly influential within both his own field of psychoanalysis and outside. It has in more recent years been used in literary theory to explain character's de-centeredness from their surroundings and their psychical collapse into psychosis. Furthermore, the idea of a great alien machine taking over the human race has become a stock element of certain types of popular fiction.

en.wikipedia.org...

Therefore, while we may not know how the idea travelled from Britain to Austria, we certainly know how it travelled from Vienna onwards...

Originally posted by Bybyots:

Game over.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

That may be a little hasty...

Right? I foolishly allowed myself to become distracted with CentOS, and I didn't get to my post in time to edit it.

I apologize for my arrogance. I was feeling kind of upitty, and I had to go and spike the ball; I often take things a step too far.

I've got one or two niggles with the case as presented by Mike Jay's article. I don't know why he goes off on one about mesmerism for starters.

Jay seems to use the device of Mesmer's ideas appearing before The Royal Society to help illustrate two sides of a social 'war' that was raging for some sort of 'new enlightenment', brought on by the hands of certain scientists and philosopher's, versus some corrupting force that Matthews was creating an analogy for with his detailed description of the Air Loom Gang and their 'workings'.

Mesmer's ideas were rejected, in the end, but it is interesting to look at who some of the 'players' were...

In 1784, without Mesmer requesting it, King Louis XVI appointed four members of the Faculty of Medicine as commissioners to investigate animal magnetism as practiced by d'Eslon. At the request of these commissioners the King appointed five additional commissioners from the Royal Academy of Sciences. These included the chemist Antoine Lavoisier (!), the physician Joseph-Ignace Guillotin (weird!), the astronomer Jean Sylvain Bailly, and the American ambassador Benjamin Franklin.

en.wikipedia.org...

Matthews described the Air Loom (influencing machine, as we now know ) as employing 'mesmeric forces', and so jay seems to jump on that to tie in the history of the time and bring home the impact of how turbulent it was.

And yeah, that would be in total agreement with Tausk's break down.

But, without going on, he makes a somewhat sweeping remark about the contributions of others to the study of madness, and in amongst a couple of other names, sneaks in a mention of Viktor Tausk.

I would have totally missed that and gotten some chemistry homework done ( ). Thank you, Kilgore Trout, for bringing that to the thread. The Matthews/Haslam story has very long legs, huh?

Tausk got the name from Francis Hauksbee...

This is a gem for bringing it all in to focus. I am sure that people were totally mesmerized by technology in 1719 just as they are today. Having Hauksbee's description of the effect that his device had on people is absolutely precious; I wish I had enough education to know exactly what to do with it; but i gots turtle-brains.

Francis Hauksbee, a student of Isaac Newton.

His “Influence Machine” was a spinning glass globe, which cracked like lightning when touched, transmitting an electrical spark and emitting a greenish neon light when rubbed—a mysterious luminosity which was called “the glow of life.

” These apparently supernatural effects were caused by the introduction of static electricity into a vacuum; it worked like the shimmering vacuum tube of the modern TV. Its psychological incarnation had similarly mesmerizing effects:

“The influencing machine,” Tausk wrote, “makes the patients see pictures. When this is the case, the machine is generally a magic lantern or cinematograph. The pictures are seen on a single plane, on walls or windowpanes; unlike typical visual hallucinations, they are not three-dimensional.”


cabinetmagazine.org...

If James Tilly Matthews was the originator of the idea, how did it get to Vienna, and by 1919 be considered by Tausk a common symptom of schizophrenia?

...And given Tausk, why did Jay feel the need to fill in with all that stuff about mesmerism?

I don't know. I and at least three others that I have gotten obsessed with the story, are trying to figure it out. Almost no one believes, right away at least, that Matthews could have been the first, and he isn't, based on what we know now about the human propensity for the "supernatural effects", as described by Hauksbee; it seems like it was just waiting to happen.

continued...

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by Bybyots

 

Oh and this as well...

Tausk's paper has been highly influential within both his own field of psychoanalysis and outside. It has in more recent years been used in literary theory to explain character's de-centeredness from their surroundings and their psychical collapse into psychosis. Furthermore, the idea of a great alien machine taking over the human race has become a stock element of certain types of popular fiction.

en.wikipedia.org...

Therefore, while we may not know how the idea travelled from Britain to Austria, we certainly know how it travelled from Vienna onwards...

I hope that folks that are interested in this thread read your quote carefully.

Yeah, that's what we're hunting for; uniformity of narrative, or some such combination of words that has not been jammed together yet. I really want to study NLP, and to be able to use it as a lens to see the world through, but I haven't the chops yet. Maybe someday.

I am presently of the disposition that all of this did, indeed, come in to the world whole, as it is, as some product of the Industrial Revolution. I currently see no need for some type of build-up of sequelae that simply went unrecorded. I think that it is possible that there have been other times that have been especially hard on the human psyche; and that the Industrial Revolution was an exceptionally potent one.

I cannot help but be reminded once more of the idea that historian Mircea Eliade put forth: that man escapes in to his cyclic mythologies, in order to escape the linear “terror of history”. It seems to me that Matthews needed to forge a new mythology with which he could attempt to escape from the terror of his own, personal history. He wasn't fast enough; but many others chimed in and have helped to finish the song. It's a catchy one, too, it seems to me, as so many seem willing to pick up the tune, and add their own embellishments. I've done it.

The only thing that I can come up with, at the moment, to analogize how it spread would be the Hundredth monkey effect.

Thanks again, KilgoreTrout, for helping to make this thread interesting.

reply to post by Bybyots


It is a very interesting case, from numerous angles, it is keeping me distracted, learning new stuff

At the moment looking at the general phenomenon, while there is certainly an element of self-fulfilling prophecy, it also appears as though the process of therapy, as administered by Haslam, and Tausk, the drawing out of the 'machinery' into a recognisable, communicable form, helps to rationalise the irrational.

I'm reminded of the Shell Game by PK Dick. He nailed the whole thing really. Metaphorically speaking.

Given your explanation, I can see why Mesmer is relevent, but also I wonder in terms of concepts and words used to describe Matthews' perception, that some are more likely to have come from Haslam's pool of reference, rather than Matthews' own. I think that Haslam, and for that matter Tausk, are as important in the construction process, as the patients themselves. They help bring it to life, so to speak. Translators rather than objective recorders?

Sorry I am late to the game...

It is by no small coincidence that Magnets are found to adjust ones moral compass. Or that magnets can create the feeling of Ghosts and Gods

Although not surprising is the ridicule and suspicion being brought upon any neurologists studying this phenomenon although I am a bit surprised no one mentioned it...

reply to post by abeverage


That might be because astute ATSers understand that such stimulation is caused by time-varying magnetic fields and not dwarf-wielded bar magnets, but more likely it didn't seem relevant.

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by abeverage

 

That might be because astute ATSers understand that such stimulation is caused by time-varying magnetic fields and not dwarf-wielded bar magnets, but more likely it didn't seem relevant.

Regardless of who or what I find it fascinating that it is being scientifically proven that magnets do have an effect on the brain and that the so called sufferer of Schizophrenia somehow concocted or correlated this.

Originally posted by abeverage
Sorry I am late to the game...

It is by no small coincidence that Magnets are found to adjust ones moral compass. Or that magnets can create the feeling of Ghosts and Gods

Although not surprising is the ridicule and suspicion being brought upon any neurologists studying this phenomenon although I am a bit surprised no one mentioned it...

I was actually thinking the same thing, kind of, trying to formulate an idea around it. As you say, there have been a number of studies that have demonstrated that not just magnets in their refined form, but also bed rock with magnetic properties, can affect hallucinations, and/or distorted thinking processes.

Anyway, I read an article a couple of weeks ago in The Times, it was an interview with the writer of a book discussing how modern psychiatry is 'doing more harm than good'. It was quite fascinating, though largely irrelevent for the purposes of this discussion. The part that got me thinking was that it explained how the classification of mental illness, particularly depressive orders, largely facilitates 'Big Pharma', and that a relationship exists whereby getting a condition recognised as a seperate disorder in the DSM permits drug produces to repatent existing drugs, and to offer financial incentives to psychiatrists to prescribe those medicines. It is a sanctioned scam so to speak.

It detailed that studies have confirmed that placebos are often more effective at treating mental illness in the vast majority of cases, and further, that those who take drugs to treat mental illness are far more likely to suffer major relapses of that illness than those who do not. But all the more interesting was that I learned that there is absolutely no basis in the belief that mental illness is caused by a chemical imbalance of any kind. Or if it is, there is absolutely no evidence to support that it is, put it this way, despite having tried to find it, and continuing to try and find it, they have failed to do so. Big money is being pumped that way. And that includes schizophrenia.

I have been reading up on the subject since, and even with the most extreme forms of mental illness, the best course of action is cognitive therapy, engaging the patient in the recognition of their illness, it's symptoms, the factors that exacerbate it, and helping the patient to accept responsibility for their own 'cure'. The worst thing, is encouraging the patient to feel like a victim of that illness, and medicating it.

Anyhoo...background information in place, I was considering how much of the epidemic of schizophrenia is based upon treating it as an 'illness' rather than as a reactionary phenomenom to modern life, just as other mental illnesses can be qualified as such. The schizophrenic may be sensitive to the atmospheric and environmental changes that have been wrought since the industrial revolution, such as magnets, electricity, and even, given the magnetic nature of such materials as granite, the increase in quarrying such materials and their use in buildings...all these factors may exacerbate what is essentially a heightened state of awareness based upon a depressive or over-sensitivity to other stimulation. Tilly, for example, had he not been running his mouth off with accusations of treason, would not under normal circumstances been confined in an institution. His family were willing to take responsibility for him, he was otherwise, functional. And historically, such individuals were, until fairly recently, not considered much of a threat to society and allowed to go about their business unhindered.

So what has changed?

Tilly doesn't appear to have suffered from his illness, apart from having to suffer the judgement of others and by being considered a nuisance because he called politicians treasonous. In terms of the latter though, he had a point, if one looks at the events surrounding his activities in France, and the decision by the then British government to withdraw it's peace offers to France because it decided instead to take advantage of the unrest to acquire the French holdings in the West Indies. He was, to all intents and purposes, less of a mental patient, and more of a political prisoner.

It seems to me that the Influencing Machines are all created as attempts by the sufferer to explain what is happening to them within a framework that others can understand, not an attempt to understand what it is that is behind those feelings. As in, the emphasis seems to be on qualifying someone as a schizophrenic so that they can be medicated as one, not in unravelling the causes of the manifestation in order to allow the patient to rationalise what is happening to them. Does that make sense?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Actually I thought it lead credence to the story of midgets with magnets adjusting his thoughts, and that it could have the very real potential of being weaponized by the nefarious...

Originally posted by abeverage

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by abeverage

 

That might be because astute ATSers understand that such stimulation is caused by time-varying magnetic fields and not dwarf-wielded bar magnets, but more likely it didn't seem relevant.

Regardless of who or what I find it fascinating that it is being scientifically proven that magnets do have an effect on the brain and that the so called sufferer of Schizophrenia somehow concocted or correlated this.

edit on 19-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

Schizophrenics make all sorts of "correlations" which they erroneously believe to be real. Their brains are fountains of correlations (and egotism) untempered by reason and empirical evidence. (neurons are correlation machines)

Educated schizophrenics just make ones which are superficially less idiotic than ignorant schizophrenics, just as educated non-ill people have ideas which are less idiotic than ignorant non-ill people. The delusions always manufactured with raw materials from real experiences, just like dreams.

Why is it that since the knowledge of electromagnetism and radio since the 1900's, schizophrenics feel justified in attributing their delusions to "mind control lasers/magnets/radio/microwaves" etc? Because there is some actual "hidden action at a distance" to electromagnetic communication, which the patients wish to attribute their horrifying problem.

It's still a complete delusion.

In the TMS experiments:

The use of magnetic field is actually secondary, the magnetism itself (static field) has no effect on the brain, it is only a non-invasive method of applying a stimulating electrical voltage and hence current without requiring surgery. The magnetic field must be strong, and rapidly oscillating and correctly constructed. Finally, the effect is still very blunt compared to the complexity of brain circuitry, at best they can temporarily suppress entire areas, like interfering with one quadrant of a computer mother board and then finding out that by doing this the printer starts glitching, and concluding that somewhere in this quadrant there is a printer interface something or other. That's really about as far as they've gotten.

There is no possible known way to insert complex thoughts or information.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It detailed that studies have confirmed that placebos are often more effective at treating mental illness in the vast majority of cases, and further, that those who take drugs to treat mental illness are far more likely to suffer major relapses of that illness than those who do not. But all the more interesting was that I learned that there is absolutely no basis in the belief that mental illness is caused by a chemical imbalance of any kind.

This is false. Unless you believe, contrary to all scientific experience, that biology of cognition in humans has no relation to biology of cognition in non-human animals.

Or if it is, there is absolutely no evidence to support that it is, put it this way, despite having tried to find it, and continuing to try and find it, they have failed to do so. Big money is being pumped that way. And that includes schizophrenia.

Or the complexity is sufficiently high and the tools sufficiently blunt that their success is low.

I have been reading up on the subject since, and even with the most extreme forms of mental illness, the best course of action is cognitive therapy, engaging the patient in the recognition of their illness, it's symptoms, the factors that exacerbate it, and helping the patient to accept responsibility for their own 'cure'.

This is true, because the pharmaceuticals are not very good. Still it is difficult to achieve this with flagrant schizophrenics.

The worst thing, is encouraging the patient to feel like a victim of that illness, and medicating it.

Probably the worst thing is to not treat it.

Anyhoo...background information in place, I was considering how much of the epidemic of schizophrenia is based upon treating it as an 'illness' rather than as a reactionary phenomenom to modern life, just as other mental illnesses can be qualified as such. The schizophrenic may be sensitive to the atmospheric and environmental changes that have been wrought since the industrial revolution, such as magnets, electricity, and even, given the magnetic nature of such materials as granite, the increase in quarrying such materials and their use in buildings...all these factors may exacerbate what is essentially a heightened state of awareness based upon a depressive or over-sensitivity to other stimulation.

There is no evidence at all for this problem with "magnets, electricity and 'magnetic natures of granite'" having anything to do with schizophrenia. If you want to look for environmental problems then potentially blame chemical toxicity in embryonic development.

Originally posted by abeverage
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Actually I thought it lead credence to the story of midgets with magnets adjusting his thoughts, and that it could have the very real potential of being weaponized by the nefarious...

Not really, on either point. Given the instance of schizophrenia, as a demographic of the populations, or even the instances of those who may have misinterpreted magnetic field induced hallucinations for paranormal activity (if that is the case and explanation for either phenomenon), then the range of such a weapon would still be highly limited, even if one was to factor in the power of suggestion in creating mass halllucinations or the like.

What is far more effective, particularly if you take it into the context suggested by Aldous Huxley in Brave New World is using drugs and medications as a form of Soma to keep the population from feeling empowered, and rather by sustaining a sense of victimisation and incapacity.

Current statistics suggest that 1 in 10, and that appears to be a conservative estimate, of people in the US over the age of 12 have at some point taking some form of mild altering prescription drug. Factor into that, that while many of these modern 'mood' stabilisers are essentially none addictive, the high propensity for those who take them to suffer subsequent relapses, does suggest dependency. If MK Ultra operations, and particularly Operation Bluebird and Artichoke indicated anything it is that drugs work to create compliancy, but only with sustained administration of those drugs. Sounds much more deployable to my mind than a bunch of midgets wandering around waving magnets in the hope of upsetting the enemies 'moral compass'.

Originally posted by mbkennel
This is false. Unless you believe, contrary to all scientific experience, that biology of cognition in humans has no relation to biology of cognition in non-human animals.

I understand what you mean, and to clarify, what I was attempting, and failing, to explain, is that there is no evidence to support that chemical imbalance is the cause of mental illness, for starters, there is no evidence to support that there is a chemical balance to be imbalanced. No physical evidence exists to support the notion that the illness can be corrected by introducing chemicals into the body, because the cause of the illness is not necessarily physical and is as likely, if not more likely, to be the result of external stimuli. Placebos therefore serve to provide the belief that they are creating 'balancing', and given the power of suggestion over the human brain, that belief is sufficient to create a positive result. The drugs themselves, introduce chemicals that have not only have that same positive effect but also a number of side-effects that alter the way in which the brain functions which in turn limits the way in which the brain is able to adapt to changes.

Originally posted by mbkennel
Or the complexity is sufficiently high and the tools sufficiently blunt that their success is low.

I do not doubt for a moment that the complexity and range of mental health issues is broad, however, from what I have been reading, the main obstacle, particularly in the US, is that cognitive therapy is outside of the scope of most people's insurance policies, and therefore has to be self-funded, combined with the incentives offered to prescribing health care professionals, by the drug companies, to promote mood altering drugs. The tools are available, but they are not accessible to all, and even then, mood altering drugs are seen as a quick fix even though their long term effectiveness is questionable. They put off dealing with the problem, rather than fixing it and/or they create dependency that ensure a life long reliance on such drugs. Cognitive therapy serves to empower the patient to find coping mechanisms towards self-recognition of the causes and symptoms of their illness, and while drug therapy may help in the short term, it should by no means be seen as a cure or even treatment of the illness itself.

Originally posted by mbkennel
This is true, because the pharmaceuticals are not very good. Still it is difficult to achieve this with flagrant schizophrenics.

I agree, to an extent, but that is really the point, schizophrenia is a spectrum disorder, and can manifest itself fairly mildly to full scale delusional. If we simply apply a one size fits all salve, we disempower the sufferer from being able to find means whereby they can anticipate episodes, find coping mechanisms, and achieve functionality. Having delusional episodes does not preclude a person from understanding that they are delusions and thus learning to combat such episodes. Certainly in the milder cases, and who is to say that with such intervention even more extreme cases cannot be brought under self-management given the right tools. Simply prescribing a medication gives the pill the power, not the patient.

Originally posted by mbkennel
Probably the worst thing is to not treat it.

Yes, you're right, what I should have said, is that that is the worst kind of treatment. I stand corrected.

Originally posted by mbkennel
There is no evidence at all for this problem with "magnets, electricity and 'magnetic natures of granite'" having anything to do with schizophrenia. If you want to look for environmental problems then potentially blame chemical toxicity in embryonic development.

I am not blaming any single factor. I think that modern life in general is responsible for a whole range of mental afflictions and illnesses, but as humans we have the ability to adapt, and modify our behaviour accordingly. I do not necessarily believe that all mental illness can be traced to fetal exposure, I see that the nurture process, and the way in which we are taught to deal with the ups and downs of life play a much larger factor. All I am saying is that there is a reason why schizophrenics commonly describe 'influencing machines'. Whether that reason is because it is part of the experience of schizophrenia or whether it is because of the power of suggestion due in part to the way schizophrenia is classified, I do not know, and seemingly, neither does anyone else. No one seems particularly interested, and I think that the reason for that is because classification enables prescription of certain drugs according to predefined labels. Mental illness is by nature of the human brain, and it's post-partum development, highly individual, and should be treated as such. A one-size-fits-all pill is not the answer.