National Socialism and the Muslim-SS

Originally posted by Deimoss
[I said it's not equal to... I don't say racism was not the part of Nazism. Of course it was. But this racism is not about "I kill all non-white" (like people think in general).

You really need to study your history. German National Socialism was inherently racist. Denial of this fact is ridiculous and foolish to the extreme.
Hitler used racial differences as a part of his propaganda to gain and consolidate power.
Gypsies, Africans, Jews - all were subjected to the horrors of your so-called tolerant Nazism. Let's not even comment about the experiments that people like Mengele took part in.

Also, this thread is not about Vietnam or Hiroshima. It is about an ethnic SS unit operating under a racist regime. If you honestly believe that pointing to the "other side" justifies the atrocities perpetrated by the German Nazis prior to and during WW2, you need to hit the reference books again and fill yourself with a good dose of reality.

A good starting point would be Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. There is no hidden agenda within it's pages. Hitler bluntly writes his thoughts on racial purity and his views of those who don't conform to his Aryan standards.

The whole issue with German national socialism is that it was not pure National Socialism. It was tweaked and perverted to suit the Hitler regime's purposes - rather as communism in the Soviet Union was not really Communism. Units such as the Arab SS were tolerated and encouraged because they helped the German war effort - no other reason. If Germany had won the war, the units would have been used to police countries in the Middle East and Africa or would have been disbanded. The members of the Arab SS would never have been considered racially equivalent to any German or would have been held in high regard by the German authorities. Merely they were distasteful but useful pawns that could be used as desired.

Inhumanity may be relative. But the vast majority of those of those writing on this forum are aware that the scale of Nazi Germany's inhumane actions dwarf anything else in comparison. I would also suggest that you research properly regarding your comment on the state of the German people. You also got that completely wrong. Have you never heard of the Gestapo or SA either?

the Waffen-SS were Himmlers private army. To make it larger all non german units in the wermacht were tranfered to it. They must have been very racely organized as germans not born in germany[Sudent and Danzig are examples] were organized almost exlusivel together as Volkdeuschte.Ie. not egual to native born germans.

the two muslems divisions[ not over brigade strenght] had very high rate of desertion. And were for the most part poor soldiers.Maybe because their leaders were germans and Volkdeuschte.

Originally posted by Karl der Grosse
the two muslems divisions[ not over brigade strenght] had very high rate of desertion. And were for the most part poor soldiers.Maybe because their leaders were germans and Volkdeuschte.

This sounds interesting, got any links? Most of the time people post this information I've got no other sources to re-read and consume.

Eitherway, thanks again for all the informative replies.

More Stuff
More here (Take with Grain of Salt, Obviously)
Some Numbers Here...

The last of the three links gives us some numbers about how many showed up, and some more information on the "Mufti"'s activities whilst still around.

(Warning: The first two sites seem to be pro-Nazi, so their information should be taken with a grain of salt, just more food for thought.)

Edit: A little more

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Weise]

Originally posted by Leveller

You really need to study your history. German National Socialism was inherently racist. Denial of this fact is ridiculous and foolish to the extreme.

Who denied it?

Hitler used racial differences as a part of his propaganda to gain and consolidate power.
Gypsies, Africans, Jews - all were subjected to the horrors of your so-called tolerant Nazism. Let's not even comment about the experiments that people like Mengele took part in.

What about Japanese and Arabic pepole? Your extremely racist Nazis had them as allies. Anti-semitism was the core of Nazism and anti-semitism is racism I've never denied this. Gypsies? In today's Hungary, at least half of the population hates them. Cultural incompatibility. Are we Nazis? No, we aren't. But we have our real reasons for being racist, even if most of the Hungarians say "I'm not racist, I just hate gypsies...".
Nazis had no problem with Japanese. Why is that? Because they admired Japanese. Admire the untermensch???

....you need to hit the reference books again and fill yourself with a good dose of reality.

heh... Funny to hear that. I can say the same to you. It seems you always pick the wrong book...

A good starting point would be Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. There is no hidden agenda within it's pages. Hitler bluntly writes his thoughts on racial purity and his views of those who don't conform to his Aryan standards.

Surprisingly, I've read it. You should read Ernesto Mila's Nazism and Esoterism. It makes more clear what Nazism was (is) about.

Units such as the Arab SS were tolerated and encouraged because they helped the German war effort - no other reason. If Germany had won the war...

Hold your fantasies. The arabic culture and mentality had many elements that was similar to Nazism. But I don't say Nazis admired them for this.

Inhumanity may be relative. But the vast majority of those of those writing on this forum are aware that the scale of Nazi Germany's inhumane actions dwarf anything else in comparison.

So what? This just proves that you _should_ look at other parts of the world's inhumanity instead of acting as a horse having it's eyes covered.

I would also suggest that you research properly regarding your comment on the state of the German people. You also got that completely wrong. Have you never heard of the Gestapo or SA either?

Do you really think I'm that dumb? I can post to you like if your were a 10 years old boy too.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Deimoss]

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Deimoss]

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[edit on 8-11-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by Deimoss

Originally posted by Leveller

You really need to study your history. German National Socialism was inherently racist. Denial of this fact is ridiculous and foolish to the extreme.

Who denied it?

Errrrr..... you did.

What we learned in school is far from the truth. Nazism was (is) not equal to racism, inhumanity and holocaust.

Do you really think I'm that dumb?

Yes. Yes I do.

(off)

Originally posted by Leveller
Errrrr..... you did.

Geez I thought I was talking to a thinking being...

Equal
-------
operator: =
bad example: Christianity=killing
good example: 1+1=2

Can you realize that you misunderstood me? Or you misunderstood me on purpose?

(/off)

German people did have problems during WWII. Those who opposed died or where putted in camps. Germany was ruled with iron hand, no other opinion was allowed let alone speaken out. None dared to say much and very often there was no other choice then join the army when you were told to do so. If you refused there were enough less friendly manners than with letters available to let you change your mind.

-The manner how they got foreigners to sign up: I can not speak for all countries but I know for a fact that the Germans used propaganda, and they used it good. In example a lot of young Flemish boys did indeed sign up for the Waffen SS after being told/promised that after the war Flanders was going to be independent. The Germans , knowing there was allready for a time being trouble between the French and Flemish speaking parts of Belgium used this knowledge to their advantage, and the stupid poor guys believed it, got carried away, signed up and most of them ended up dead fighting against the Russians where at that time Germany was taking heavy losses. That is the history of Flemish collaborateurs/Waffen SS. Now keeping this in mind it wouldn�t surprise me if they did exactly the same thing with the French Belgians and / or other nationalities.

-In the case of Degrelle. Dreaming of a united europe can be good. Doing what he did not. He knew what was happening and still took part in it.
He is,was and always will be scum. Neo-nazi groups in Belgium and France glorify him. There is a difference between boys of 16-17 signing up and a guy older than 30, who studied signing up. Not do I want to say that young people are dumb, but older people who have seen more of the world should know better than that. The fact that he afterwards stated that he did not have any regrets ,only about losing the war sums it all up. By then he also knew what happened and still didn�t feel bad about it..


[edit on 9-11-2004 by Calibre]

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Calibre]

Originally posted by Deimoss
(off)

Originally posted by Leveller
Errrrr..... you did.

Geez I thought I was talking to a thinking being...

Which part of the quotation did you not understand? You clearly made a statement that Nazism was not equal to racism. You then clearly make a statement disowning the claim.

If I misunderstood your statement, it is only due to the poor context in which you used the word "equal". If you would therefore clarify the statement that "Nazism did not equal racism", maybe clarity will ensue. As far as I'm aware, if something is not equal it does not correspond to whatever it is being compared to. Therefore your statement suggests that Nazism did not correspond to racism, when it clearly did - as witnessed by the actions and words of the Hitler regime prior to and during World War2.

Furthermore, your comparison of modern day racism with German National Socialism is totally and utterly irrelavant - it was not a claim made by myself nor does it have any bearing in this topic.

Your claim about the Japanese is also totally unfounded. Although Hitler may have admired the Japanese Empire and the way in which it was organised in structure, he did not admire the Japanese as a race - they were not Germanic. They were also needed to open a second front against the Chinese and Great Britain.
If you have read Mein Kampf (as you claim) you would be aware that Hitler was only in favour of a Germanic/Aryan race.

"Every manifestation of human culture, every product of art, science and technical skill, which we see before our eyes today, is almost exclusively the product of Aryan creative power."

"On this planet of ours human culture and civilization are indissolubly bound up with the presence of the Aryan. If he should be exterminated or subjugated, then the dark shroud of a new barbarian era would enfold the earth."

Here is a link to Chapter IX of Mein Kampf. Incidentally it is titled Nation and Race.

www.roadtopeace.org...

Hitler criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting bastardization." He spoke of "Monstrosities halfway between man and ape" and lamented the fact of Christians going to "Central Africa" to set up "Negro missions," resulting in the turning of "healthy . . . human beings into a rotten brood of bastards."


Not equal to racism? Please explain.

Right. Well done, Leveller.

It's is ALL in Mein Kampf. I just finished my second reading of it last week. Although Adolf tends to ramble a bit, he makes it very clear and in more or less plain language, that one of the primary motivators of his agenda is race - the extermination of one race in order to make way for a new, genetically superior one. His attempts to justify it are extremely clever - he was no idiot, to be sure. He was, very simply, an avowed nationalist, an avowed racist, and an avowed proponent of genocide. At no point does he try to hide any of this. In fact, he is quite proud of this and uses it as a justification for X and Y. And, of course, the events of the second WW are the physical manifestations of his dream.

Mein kampf is extremely difficult to find, but if you can manage to find a copy, get the one that is translated by Ralph Manheim (Houghton Miflin edition.)

I realize that Mein Kampf is a controversial book, and that many would rather not have anyone read it. Understandable, to be sure. Yet, it is important to understand the kind of mind that is capable of such things, and to understand just how frighteningly easy it could be to justify heinous, inhuman acts.

WOW have any of you seen a Tatar? no not the sauce. Their facial structure resambles a tatar that or a Chenican(sp).