What is the Christian take on self defense, war, civil war, fighting in general?

reply to post by dominicus


additionally, the God of the old testament
certainly proscribed the slaughter of the
enemy, both with his own direct hand
and through the hand of those he
empowered and favored.

Post rapture every christian should be well versed in all matters involving defensive and offensive fighting. Pre rapture is a time to prepare your heart and there are still a couple seconds left.

Originally posted by Siberbat
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Whuh? Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword"?

Yes indded, they're called soldiers. In a technical view, you can add law enforcement to that as well.

As far as civillians go, I hardly believe that defending one's self or an innocent is "living by the sword." What's the atheist view on protecting the innocent from evil? Do atheists have an intellectual or moral stance on that? On what basis do they form those morals on?

Nothing personal Jiggerj, I just find it fascinating you would use a text you find irronious to defend your position. lol. Ironic.

edit on 14-4-2013 by Siberbat because: (no reason given)

Wasn't my position that needed defending. Jesus, the man you all think imparted some kind of otherworldly wisdom said it, I didn't. So, go ask him what he meant.
As for the atheist view:
Hate those that harm our loved ones.
Kill them when defending the innocent.

reply to post by jiggerj


What Jesus said is true, soldiers often die.

reply to post by dominicus


An excellent thread, OP. I'll just follow this for the answers. I see a lot of interesting answers on here.

Let's the U.S. is in a civil War where it's the citizens against Big Bro. Or a foreign invasion of some sort. Do you fight? Do you turn the other cheek as Jesus taught?

What if your brothers/sisters, friends are being killed, tortured, etc. DO you still turn the other cheek?

All excellent questions.
Fighting off foreign invaders and avenging your loved ones are not always seen as virtuous. Especially when certain other people are doing it.

I'll add in one more question..

Besides common sense and logic that dictates there's nothing wrong in fighting off foreign invasions, what did exactly Jesus ever say about taking up weapons to fight oppressors? I thought Christians were supposed to feel blessed in persecution and leave all the fighting to God.

Also, if Christians are to take up arms to repel a (hypothetical) foreign invasion and avenge the deaths of their loved ones... how does it make them any different from what the Muslim Afghans are doing?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


In Afghanistan it's the Taliban and Al Qaida attacking not just the west but also the democratically elected Afghan government.

reply to post by cody599

With all due respect I took life to save lives
Does that make me a sinner ?

Don't ask me, ask those whose lives you "took".

Besides I wasn't there. You're asking me to make a judgment based on your "justification".

reply to post by butcherguy

Depends on how much of the Bible you read:

Or how much of it you believe really happened... it was written by men after all.

The most important thing in my mind is the decision to "take life". And I am not the Judge, if you will. We'll have to wait and see about that.

(but personally) I don't want to be responsible for anyones death.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by butcherguy

 

Depends on how much of the Bible you read:

Or how much of it you believe really happened... it was written by men after all.

The most important thing in my mind is the decision to "take life". And I am not the Judge, if you will. We'll have to wait and see about that.

(but personally) I don't want to be responsible for anyones death.

I agree with you on all of that.
Especially the part about not wanting to be responsible for anyone's death.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

In Afghanistan it's the Taliban and Al Qaida attacking not just the west but also the democratically elected Afghan government.

According to the news, al-Qaeda has been purged from Afghanistan. Theres a good reason why we don't hear of all those high tech al-qaeda caves anymore.

The Taliban attacks the "democratically" elected government because they see them as puppets of the West...who took over what was once their position and status. I'm sure a hypothetical Christian militia would also go after puppets of an invading force...

Or would they accept and submit to whatever government that is installed by the invaders?

Whats good for you is good for them.

Hmm it depends on the situation I think. For instance, if a loved one (or even a stranger perhaps) was being attacked by someone I'd definitely intervene to prevent them from getting hurt or killed even if it meant getting injured or killed myself in the process. So if I were armed with a gun or other weapon would I use it to stop the offender from committing a crime? I think I would. But, I'd hopefully not kill them in the process. I'd much rather incapacitate them instead of kill them. So that's the defence side of things. IMO we're meant to be like Christ Jesus in that we should save life not destroy it (Lk 9:51-56). Thus, concerning war or violence in general I'm definitely a pacifist. I believe we all have a choice and violence is never the answer. I used to interpret Christ's statement to Pilate in John 18:26:

My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence

to mean that He was simply saying that His followers would fight if they were in control or power. But, now I've been studying this further and reading Gregory Boyd's "The Myth of a Christian Nation" and realized that He was actually saying His Kingdom is not "of this world" at all otherwise His servants would act like citizens "of this world" and go out fighting and defending their race, culture, religion and way of life. Instead as Christ followers we are not to engage in war, violence or killing at all. We are meant to forgive and save lives not avenge and destroy. It's a challenge for sure especially if a loved one has been injured or their life taken away in a crime. You'd naturally want to take vengeance out on the low life who has hurt you and your family. But, we've been shown a better, divine way through Christ's example (Rom 12:19-21; 1 Pt 2:21-23). He didn't fight back. He didn't cry out to God to avenge His murder. He trusted in God to save Him and asked God to forgive those who hurt and killed Him. And in the end God raised Him from the dead ultimately defeating the real enemy i.e. the devil, death and the grave (Rev 20:10, 14). So as a Christian how are we to defend ourselves? Our primary weapon of defence is the Word of God itself (Eph 6:17) seeing our warfare isn't with fellow humans--who are ultimately all victims of the evil one--it is with the satanic spiritual forces that are at work in our world (Eph 6:12). Our citizenship and allegiance isn't to the kingdoms of this world it's to the Kingdom of Heaven that is yet to come. And Christ is calling people from all over the world into His Body transcending national, ethnic, religious and cultural boundaries (Phil 3:20). His entire life was a demonstration of the principle of "power under" in contrast to "power over" (Mt 20:25-28) and we see this not only in the "kingdoms of the world" as they fight against those who disagree with their views and act in coercive ways to demonize "the other" and set up an "us vs them" mentality, but even when the Church takes this role be it the Catholic or Protestant churches in Europe, America or elsewhere it too then no longer becomes the persecuted, but the persecutor and as others have pointed out: "...all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Mt 26:52).

Originally posted by dominicus
This is an area I'm not too familiar in so I wanted to get a few opinions on the Christian view in terms of fighting.

Let's the U.S. is in a civil War where it's the citizens against Big Bro. Or a foreign invasion of some sort. Do you fight? Do you turn the other cheek as Jesus taught?

What if your brothers/sisters, friends are being killed, tortured, etc. DO you still turn the other cheek?

Where's the fine line between "Doing" something about it, and "Letting it Go"?

Catholic Church teaches a Jut War Theory. You might want to Google: The Challenge of Peace: God’s Promise and Our Response: A Pastoral Letter on War and Peace, by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. PDF

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by dominicus
This is an area I'm not too familiar in so I wanted to get a few opinions on the Christian view in terms of fighting.
Let's the U.S. is in a civil War where it's the citizens against Big Bro. Or a foreign invasion of some sort. Do you fight? Do you turn the other cheek as Jesus taught?
What if your brothers/sisters, friends are being killed, tortured, etc. DO you still turn the other cheek?Where's the fine line between "Doing" something about it, and "Letting it Go"?

dominius
It is a matter of faith. If you believe that all things happen to you by God’s will and that you believe it is his will that you pursue love, regardless of the trials you face, than you can always “turn the other cheek”.

What if its a matter of fate and destiny? What if your recall as to your place in soul growth is to deny all bloodshed, if that is what you are accustomed to, your flavor of living life as a human. Even if the event involves the killing of your family, the teaching is in not retaliation, retribution. The whole point of the excersize is to ignore the plantiff; the causitory, as it is just a physical playform to get you to respond with anger or the subsequent remorse of your relaliatory deed. Primary focus: ITS A GAME , play it with finess or disregard it. Jesus somehow knew who the string puller puppet masters were. Someone asked in another thread the value or reason or definition of Emotions. They are driven by hormonal glandular excretions. They are supreme in their power and the etherial cannot grasp them, want the love quotient but has no understanding as the angelic realms are NOT PHYSICAL. If one could capture human emotion in a vial, it would be worth more than gold in other realms. In capturing emotive thought/feeling they may be able to discribe and understand radioactivity as a prime force; then control us completely; basically its a jealousy racetrack (who wins).

reply to post by dominicus


render unto Caesar what is Caesar's
and unto God what is God's